25 Semi-hardcore guilds are taking strain.

[Lylandra]

All guilds are feeling the strain at the moment. We are having a terribly difficult time recruiting enough competent players for 10 man normals. People just don't seem to be as interested in raiding anymore and if you do manage to convince people to join your raid group you are often greeted with a raider that plays poorly and isn't really all too interested in improving their abilities. All of ToT thus far feels like you can't really get away with carrying people. While I am not surprised that this is the case in heroic difficulty (it is the more difficult option for a reason and, indeed, you shouldn't be able to carry people on heroic) it is rather unsettling to see such a philosophy arise in normal difficulty.

That said, things will get considerably easier with the advent of the item upgrades and as more people get ahold of the legendary meta gems.

This. We have the same problems as well... getting a "okay-ish replacement" for one week is hard enough, but recruiting a new COMPETENT raider even if you are progressing steadily (not fast, but at a constant pace) is a nightmare. I remember the times when masses of guilds did Ulduar/LK runs (even pugs) or Firelands/DS. Now? Feel lucky when you get into a group that goes past amber former or Horridon with your alt... and thank the gods when you find a player who plays well enough to help you out through the later bosses. In the best cases, you'll only have 1 wipe when said person has never done the fight in normal before, especially when s/he is a tank or healer.

[Durandro]

This. We have the same problems as well... getting a "okay-ish replacement" for one week is hard enough, but recruiting a new COMPETENT raider even if you are progressing steadily (not fast, but at a constant pace) is a nightmare. I remember the times when masses of guilds did Ulduar/LK runs (even pugs) or Firelands/DS. Now? Feel lucky when you get into a group that goes past amber former or Horridon with your alt... and thank the gods when you find a player who plays well enough to help you out through the later bosses. In the best cases, you'll only have 1 wipe when said person has never done the fight in normal before, especially when s/he is a tank or healer.

I've suffered through this also. Replacing people is a pain in the ass, especially when you have to 'make do' with offspecs until you do so. So you're desperate to replace the healers or tank, so you take what you can. And they suck, so you either have to continue struggling on and force that player to keep playing offspec, or keep the substandard player while looking for another. Which rarely works out well.

And then you finally get a great replacement. And they leave the guild within a week because a better guild poached them, or they want to switch main and won't accept 'we need your current character' as an answer.

I do not miss raid management at all. Leading during a raid is great (usually), but the prep work...

[Deleted]

Only 10% of the players raided before LFR... so no, this is wrong.

Yes 10% of the players raided before LFR

Do 10% of the players raid now? no

Because some went from raiding to LFR (Note that LFR is not actually raiding)


LFR is slowly but surely killing raiding because why spend 4-14h raiding everyday when you can do it in <1h every week and still see the same content

[oraz4000]

Its staggering when you look at the statistics and the sheer number of guilds that have died since wrath, raiding has been dying since wrath.

[Mouri Kogorou]

you know... i can not even get enough people for 10 man raiding....

[Durandro]

Its staggering when you look at the statistics and the sheer number of guilds that have died since wrath, raiding has been dying since wrath.

You mean Vanilla. Guilds die all the time, for various reasons. New ones rise to fill the ranks.

[nekobaka]

Only 10% of the players raided before LFR... so no, this is wrong.

You claim they are wrong with a stat. What is your source?

[DreamCast]

Guys just something to point out here, if 25s were easier then 10mans to organize then there would be more 25 man guilds. This is how the world works. 1) You like 10 mans more --> Setup 10man guild, 2) You like them equally --> setup 10man guild, 3) You like 25s slightly more --> Still setup a 10man guild because its still not worth the effort setting up 25s. 4) You love 25 man raiding only --> A 25 man guild is formed.

[fangless]

Guys just something to point out here, if 25s were easier then 10mans to organize then there would be more 25 man guilds. This is how the world works. 1) You like 10 mans more --> Setup 10man guild, 2) You like them equally --> setup 10man guild, 3) You like 25s slightly more --> Still setup a 10man guild because its still not worth the effort setting up 25s. 4) You love 25 man raiding only --> A 25 man guild is formed.

Even if 25 man dropped free loot with no bosses, the actual SETUP of making a NEW 25 player guild is pretty daunting.

We won't get any more players than before, basically no matter what changes they make.

[Akraen]

I dont understand your problem. Like I already pointed out, both guilds were 25 man from the beginning of WoWs raiding up to Cataclysm, where they converted to 10 mans. You are acting like organizing a 25 man guild is some sort of rocket science, and the only people who are "able to" achieve it have to have a diploma in godknowswhat. IT IS HARDER IN THE WAY THAT YOU'VE TO DO 25% MORE RAIDSPOT INTERVIES (for the 3 officiers in your guild), and NOT that it takes half your life just to keep this guild living.

And honestly, 10 man isnt worth it anymore - for the reasons I've pointed out. You'll now see people quitting or fusing into 25 mans.

You don't seem to have a working knowledge of leading a guild in 25m at all. I'm okay with a variety of opinions but you are so off base the only way I can understand your stance is by assuming your guild sucked on 10m due to bad leadership which could be covered up in a larger guild only.

[owbu]

well we are only at 2/13 heroic, but we have lots of applications. Lots of raiders seem to like the 25 format, but dont really want to raid more than 2 nights a week.
Not that we can choose from a giant amount of players, but during the end of wrath or all of cata it felt way worse.

[Pizza the Hutt]

Not for nothing, but when they announced the Thunderforged plan to incentivize 25-mans, many of the smarter players offered plenty of feedback that, while appreciated, Thunderforged was not going to solve any of their problems. The issues were always with management, administration, recruiting and herding cats, not a couple of iLevels on a handful of gear.

[Deleted]

That would make gearing up in 10-mans way faster than in 25s. 25-man guilds have plenty of bad loot RNG, too, but they increased the loot drops in 25-mans to encourage them slightly. However, it still doesn't take a lot less time to gear up in 25's. Go look at average ilvl for 10-man and 25-man guilds around the same progression level. From what I've seen, they're about the same.

well yes and no, with the idea i came up with 10 mans would still be hit by the same RNG as 25 mans with the possibility for more than 1 of the same item, and since you can only pick 2 of those items, it will still be a lower amount of players percent-wise that would get gear.

[Durandro]

well yes and no, with the idea i came up with 10 mans would still be hit by the same RNG as 25 mans with the possibility for more than 1 of the same item, and since you can only pick 2 of those items, it will still be a lower amount of players percent-wise that would get gear.

The actual gear advantage in 25 man mostly effects the core members of the raid - i.e. Tanks and Healers, and maybe your best DPS. 10 man can be hit hard with no gear at all dropping for your tanks for ages so they are getting pounded into the ground later on in the dungeon. I remember in Wrath a lot of tanks were stuck with the crafted 200 ilevel shield until Icecrown!

[Deleted]

You don't seem to have a working knowledge of leading a guild in 25m at all. I'm okay with a variety of opinions but you are so off base the only way I can understand your stance is by assuming your guild sucked on 10m due to bad leadership which could be covered up in a larger guild only.

Yep, our 11/13H guild sucks so much that we had to cover up our 8 years of raiding experience by merging with a larger guild. And this is being told by someone who isnt even in the top 1000s bracket. I'm okay with a variety of opinions but some just dont matter at all.

[kosechi]

The actual gear advantage in 25 man mostly effects the core members of the raid - i.e. Tanks and Healers, and maybe your best DPS. 10 man can be hit hard with no gear at all dropping for your tanks for ages so they are getting pounded into the ground later on in the dungeon. I remember in Wrath a lot of tanks were stuck with the crafted 200 ilevel shield until Icecrown!

that kind of bad loot rng effects 25s just as much as it does 10s. i replaced my voice of reason with a heroic lost pavise of the blue flight when i got roped into helping a friend clear on clear on 10 man one weekend. i normally didn't do 10 mans. but it was the first shield i had seen since naxx

saying '25s get more loot' is not justification for saying 25s are easier than 10s or vice versa because its flat out not true.

and if loot is all you care about in raiding then i don't know what to tell you, you probably shouldn't be raiding. all loot does is make farm night go faster.

and even if 25s got 12 pieces of loot people would still not do them because of how daunting they are to run.

[Nairobi]

Even if 25 man dropped free loot with no bosses, the actual SETUP of making a NEW 25 player guild is pretty daunting.

We won't get any more players than before, basically no matter what changes they make.

Basically this. The raid pool is at best staying constant, and at worst/more realistically shrinking. Entropy/attrition cause the majority of 25s (read: not world/region first HC guilds) to fold to 10s to make/maintain progress, simply because it is easier to "trim the fat" than it is to get good applicants. With a finite raider pool, 99% of all good applicants are spoken for, so most of what you get in recruitment are people that couldn't cut it. You can't fill up any raid (10 OR 25) with that and hope to do well, so the obvious answer (as it was for us) was to make it easier on the "core" and trim down.

Problem is, even 10's are now feeling the walls close in. Most of us would like to raid 25s, but it's just not logistically feasible on most realms (due to population issues) to recruit, and it's rare to get a recruit to bite on a transfer to take a gamble, ESPECIALLY if you're attempting to change formats.

I really wish Blizz would just revert to ONE raid size. 10, 25, 15, 12, 8....I don't care. Just make it a constant so that we as raiders can remove one of the variables. Perhaps that could help prevent/deter some of the "grass is greener" mentality we have now, and kill the constant 10 vs 25 crap. Level the field, level the tuning, and bring back the community.

[Mattachine]

Yep, our 11/13H guild sucks so much that we had to cover up our 8 years of raiding experience by merging with a larger guild. And this is being told by someone who isnt even in the top 1000s bracket. I'm okay with a variety of opinions but some just dont matter at all.

You totally missed the point. The thread is about 25 semi-hardcore guilds. World/region HC guilds such as your guild won't have issue b/c alot of wannabe want to be part of the guild. However, for other not as hardcore or progressive 25-man guilds, it's a different story. You will be facing alot more challenges and works to try to maintain healthy roster for these guilds.

[fangless]

I mean, GC conceeds the same point;
In regards to how successful TF gear was for 25:

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...16485133946883

Greg Street
‏@Ghostcrawler
Hard to say. 25s are rarely created so it's more a question of how many didn't break up that might have.

Also, to this thread's point:
https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...31199233216513

Greg Street
‏@Ghostcrawler
It could also be that there are virtually no N 25 guilds. Most 25s have heroic intentions.

[Mctriple]

I have to agree with the OP about semi-hardcore 25-mans being difficult. I've led semi-core 25-mans since BC, and I called it quits early this year. Most of the semi-core player base seems to have moved on to 10-man raids. It was quite a struggle to keep a decent roster going for a guild with a semi-core attitude (fairly progression-oriented but a bit more casual.. usually aiming to have "most" HM content cleared by the next patch but not necessarily all). In my experience, anyway, most 25-mans are either what I consider quite casual and maybe 1/13 right now or even still on normal mode progression, or they're hardcore pushing hard for HMs. I was lucky enough to join one of the very few 3 night guilds with very strong progression, but it's still what I'd consider hard-core in mentality, just not in raid schedule. Guilds like this are almost nonexistent anymore.