Is the concept of raiding still suitable for an age of fluctuating players?

[Golden]

What I find hilarious is when people argue endlessly on forums over matters of taste. This game is to hard. This game is to easy. Everyone should like raiding. Raiding is old fashioned.

It's even more hilarious to me when people exaggerate stuff so much that taste become a question of morality: raiders have no life, casual players are lazy, raiders have an addiction problem, casual players want everything handed to them, etc.

/popcorn

[Maelle]

I don't think it's that people are less willing (you kind of make it sound like people are just being lazy and fickle) but more that a lot raiders have grown up, and their priorities have HAD to shift. This makes for a group of people that can't easily sit down for 4 hours at a stretch for 4 nights a week (for example) to get raid content down. it does not mean that they don't wish to commit, put in effort, or to raid - but work or family commitments make it hard.

[Shinzai]

I would still say the whole issue is with Blizzard listening too much to their 'fans' (read the most vocal people on their forums). When those people get what they want, they tend to suddenly jump ship and never return. The people with the most desire for change are normally the people who are tired of a game that they've played for too long.

I agree that making raiding so casually orientated broke a lot of what made it great in the first place. And the people that wanted it to be made easier still don't get any more or less done. Creating something great and knowing it's great yourself should've been the main focus. But instead, trying to draw in as many players as possible has detracted from what made WoW so great.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, there's FFXI. Which while amazingly rewarding in the early expansions, completely lost its touch with its fans as the developers decided it should just become more and more of a grind fest. Accessibility was completely cut off for new players and older players simply didn't have the time required to devote to gearing, with most time sinks and end game content becoming more and more unrewarding. Drop rates were always low, but they seemed to become lower and more fragmented, with items that required you to gather say 3 of X, so you could make 1 piece of Y, with each piece of X having a 0.5% drop rate.

There needs to be a balance of all things, with content segmented. I prefer there specifically being content that's considered for 'casual' (read people with low time to put in, etc) gamers and also content geared towards the hardcore - those who will sink all the time in the world in/out gear/skill whatever they want to achieve.

[Wynnyelle]

I think raiding still has a place in the MMO genre. It is a classic activity. However, I think it's a good thing that developers are also adding different content other than raids in their games, because some people simply do not have the time or desire to dedicate several hours of their life, uninterrupted, to raiding. I certainly don't have time for it. My lifestyle is far too busy for it. So I wouldn't necessarily say that it's outdated, since a lot of people still love it and do it on a regular basis.

[Redblade]

There needs to be a balance of all things, with content segmented. I prefer there specifically being content that's considered for 'casual' (read people with low time to put in, etc) gamers and also content geared towards the hardcore - those who will sink all the time in the world in/out gear/skill whatever they want to achieve.

I always though long and involved quest chains would be a solution for the more casual player, with class specific quests at specific intervals to add a skill element, these could reward epic gear made for the purpose.

Raiding in it self was at it's best in BC, Wrath had it's good tiers as well, Ulduar mainly but ICC was great before the rolled out the faceroll buff, could have done without the gating though, what ruined it most besides the buff was the year of no other content.

[Ebonheart]

I pose this question to you guys as an increasing number of recent MMOs have avoided adding raid-content (namingly GW2 and TESO)

I guess it makes sense to a point. Classic raiding requires a relatively tightly nit group and stable player participation in order to be fun and rewarding.

However the increase in F2P games makes it much easier for people to pick up....but also to leave the game when bored. WoW has issues with this too, despite having subscriptions, where people sub for a few months after new content, only to leave again a while later.

With this type of volatile player behavior the classic raid concept seems to become harder and harder to sell.

Subjectively speaking it also seems as if MMO players in general are less and less willing to submit to regular raiding schedules and committed guilds.

So what do you think? Is the classic raid model outdated?

Does there need to be a more flexible endgame concept in place?

Edit: This is in the Video Games forums and not directly about WoW.

I honestly think "raiding" in its current state in WoW is a very out dated concept. You can easily see for yourself if anyone is asking for facts. Compare the number of active raiding guilds in WTLK to ones that are currently active.

Well there are other contributing factors, but primarily that raiding is itself can often lead to burn out of the game. I've gotten burnt out myself after being in raiding guilds and attending scheduled raids. However, I've noticed a bit less strain when pugging content.

When WoW launched they didn't do anything different when it came to raids. They improved on it.

But "raids" currently used in WoW is often used to describe large scale end game PVE content.

Considering the day and age, with fewer people able to commit long hours and days to a small part of a game, the concept of raiding is getting a bit out dated.

I honestly like the direction TES is taking especially. As long as TES has an active and engaging end game focus, it will do well. It doesn't really need to have raids the way its defined in WoW; ZMO seem to be using the words, Adventure Zones in a broader sense and I totally dig that.

Honestly I am been so disappointed with all raids since WTLK. They ain't really fun. They are simply complicated with a ton of random mechanics. There is really nothing that differentiates one boss from another. I thought ICC had some truly unique boss fights, each different from the other. So did Naxxramus and Ulduar.

However, it really does not have anything to do with fluctuating players, since any challenging content is going to require some gear progression. Its just that the concept of raiding is old and serves nothing more than a grind.

[Redblade]

Considering the day and age, with fewer people able to commit long hours and days to a small part of a game, the concept of raiding is getting a bit out dated.

Do you have anything to back this up?

I think that's simply a false assumption, it relies on the player base being static instead of new/returning players coming in replacing quitting once. If anything changed it's Blizzard reducing time and effort needed to succeed as a raider, hell all you really have to do these days is wait for the nerfs and faceroll the content.

[Darkfriend]

Only reason I ever play any MMO is endgame. No raiding= I'd quit wow.

[Valeron]

I wonder if someone makes a game that just has raiding, would it be successful?

[hulkgor]

I feel any decent MMORPG\FPS game should have epic encounters in the form of raiding. If the content is worth it, people will join up in the effort to take it down. What they CAN'T do is make it extremely accessible or available to all... whoever does it, does it. Those who don't, will look forward to try it themselves, or just miss it alltogether.

One of my biggest issues with GW2 is facing those monstrous dragon encounters, surrounded by 100 other people which i don't know, and see it been taken down, with little to no effort... those could have been unbelievable raid encounters.

Anyway, the concept of raiding is still suitable and interesting, but it needs to be rewarding as an experience, otherwise people won't make the effort.

[melodramocracy]

Subjectively speaking it also seems as if MMO players in general are less and less willing to submit to regular raiding schedules and committed guilds.

Does there need to be a more flexible endgame concept in place?

I think a lot of current generation MMO players are so Pavlovian in their expectations, that raids are one of the only ideas that they consider 'end game'. To take that one step further, the idea of games needing 'end game' at all probably needs to go away, as it does little to further the MMO genre, and does little more than minimalize the importance of the biggest chunk of content in most games.

And MMO's have suffered because of it.

This is a fairly unpopular stance, but also one that anyone who's played a lot of the older games can probably at least partially agree with: MMORPGs are unique, and grew in popularity initially, because of the involvement the player gets not only by a compelling connection to the avatar he /she is playing, but a compelling connection to the community he / she winds up playing with. THAT is the special 'thing' that MMO's can deliver that no other genre really does.

Take either of these elements away, and the game collapses. Players start to perceive various tasks and elements of the game as trivial, or a waste of time. Players will lean, if offered, towards routes through the game that require very little interaction with others. Ultimately, player involvement in the game is minimalized, and the basic wants of said player are served far better in other games, or other genre's entirely.

[Achaman]

tbh i just raid for the gear so i can eventually go over to the next raid and dont care about the lore or the server first shite and i find its alot more fun to go in blind than to master the strategies

[paralleluniverse]

I pose this question to you guys as an increasing number of recent MMOs have avoided adding raid-content (namingly GW2 and TESO)

I guess it makes sense to a point. Classic raiding requires a relatively tightly nit group and stable player participation in order to be fun and rewarding.

However the increase in F2P games makes it much easier for people to pick up....but also to leave the game when bored. WoW has issues with this too, despite having subscriptions, where people sub for a few months after new content, only to leave again a while later.

With this type of volatile player behavior the classic raid concept seems to become harder and harder to sell.

Subjectively speaking it also seems as if MMO players in general are less and less willing to submit to regular raiding schedules and committed guilds.

So what do you think? Is the classic raid model outdated?

Does there need to be a more flexible endgame concept in place?

Edit: This is in the Video Games forums and not directly about WoW.

I've yet to see any alternative to raiding as a viable, challenging and engaging PvE endgame.

You bring up GW2. That's an example of how bad PvE endgame is without raids.

[kail]

Precisely this, the notion that all content has be be for everyone and to be seen by everyone is ridiculous.

Glad I'm not the only one thinking this. Didn't see all of the content during tBC and yet I found little reason to complain. The latest raids/bosses should be left for the dedicated and if anything; it gave me the incentive to reach those higher tiers.

I left WoW after seeing how LFR/easymode norms allowed really quite content clearing where the only next step was doing the same raids over but in higher difficulty. Simple tiered raids were the true carrot on the stick IMO.

[paralleluniverse]

I think a lot of current generation MMO players are so Pavlovian in their expectations, that raids are one of the only ideas that they consider 'end game'. To take that one step further, the idea of games needing 'end game' at all probably needs to go away, as it does little to further the MMO genre, and does little more than minimalize the importance of the biggest chunk of content in most games.

And MMO's have suffered because of it.

This is a fairly unpopular stance, but also one that anyone who's played a lot of the older games can probably at least partially agree with: MMORPGs are unique, and grew in popularity initially, because of the involvement the player gets not only by a compelling connection to the avatar he /she is playing, but a compelling connection to the community he / she winds up playing with. THAT is the special 'thing' that MMO's can deliver that no other genre really does.

Take either of these elements away, and the game collapses. Players start to perceive various tasks and elements of the game as trivial, or a waste of time. Players will lean, if offered, towards routes through the game that require very little interaction with others. Ultimately, player involvement in the game is minimalized, and the basic wants of said player are served far better in other games, or other genre's entirely.

You are completely wrong.

No endgame = no point in playing.

The question is simple, after you beat the leveling content, what is there left to do? That's endgame content. While raids isn't the only possible form of PvE endgame content, I haven't seen anyone present a better alternative. In some sense, all PvE content is the same--it's just a matter of group size. So an alternative to raiding content would likely be raid/dungeon content with a smaller group.

Things like epic personal quests and long grinds, doesn't work. Because when you replace challenge (which raids are) with grind, it's not fun.

---------- Post added 2013-05-19 at 05:33 AM ----------

Glad I'm not the only one thinking this. Didn't see all of the content during tBC and yet I found little reason to complain. The latest raids/bosses should be left for the dedicated and if anything; it gave me the incentive to reach those higher tiers.

I left WoW after seeing how LFR/easymode norms allowed really quite content clearing where the only next step was doing the same raids over but in higher difficulty. Simple tiered raids were the true carrot on the stick IMO.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03...the-easy-myth/

Easy modes change nothing. You complain about having to redo bosses. You have to redo bosses anyway. It's called the weekly reset.

[melodramocracy]

You are completely wrong.

Oh, I'm not wrong in the least. The elements I described are lacking in most of todays MMO's, and one of the main reasons so many games have such player retention issues that they're forced to go F2P and hope for the best.

[kail]

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03...the-easy-myth/

Easy modes change nothing. You complain about having to redo bosses. You have to redo bosses anyway. It's called the weekly reset.

Like I mentioned before, the last tiers of raids during tBC and early wrath were accessible by a few percentage. Yes, raids that were clearable by your guild were deemed "farm status" but you can't farm a tier you're trying to gear for (i.e. SSC/TK/BT/etc). In essence, I prefered a different raid to represent the next difficulty rather than altering an existing one in "farm status".

That link had little to do with my post.

[Herrenos]

IMO raiding is pointless and unfun without that group of friends taking on challenges together on a regular basis. When I've had to find a new guild my first motivation was whether or not I would get along with the members.

I get your point though. Most people don't want to commit to anything anymore, especially a recreation activity.

[paralleluniverse]

Like I mentioned before, the last tiers of raids during tBC and early wrath were accessible by a few percentage. Yes, raids that were clearable by your guild were deemed "farm status" but you can't farm a tier you're trying to gear for (i.e. SSC/TK/BT/etc). In essence, I prefered a different raid to represent the next difficulty rather than altering an existing one in "farm status".

That link had little to do with my post.

You seem to imply that if only Blizzard stop making these easy modes for raids, then you'll have a new raid. It doesn't work that way. Making a different raid is hard. Adding modes to existing raids not so much.

In either case, now or TBC, you raid until the next raid comes out. The amount of time that it takes until the next raid has very little to do with the fact raids have 2 modes, and a lot to do with the number staff working on WoW.

[Redblade]

Easy modes change nothing. You complain about having to redo bosses. You have to redo bosses anyway. It's called the weekly reset.

Easy mode changes peoples motivations though, the gradual nerfs changes peoples motivation as well, the lack of an overall purpose and goal is what's being removed by introducing easy modes and the practice of herding players through content.

To use DS as an example, a guild who started out doing LFR and progressing through normal and got up to spine before the nerfs kicked in, over the course of the nerfs they keeps progressing to end up at HC spine with the max level buff. This means they did about the same difficulty for the duration of that content, what's the motivation in that? I mean they could just as well unsubscribed and waited for the max level nerf to kick in and then start their progression, the effect would be the same but require much less time.

Back in BC you knew the goal, few reach the very end but at least the goal was there to work towards, and as long as you're not feeling entitled to "see all content" just because you pay but instead decide to put in the time and effort needed to reach it, the game offered a much more rewarding experience.