Why is Exclusive content a bad thing to some people?

[Mormolyce]

Hint: They've always been catering to the casual design path. Except incidentally mists and to a lesser extent cataclysm. This is why casuals are not engaged this expansion.

Funny isn't it? Since WoW was originally designed as more accessible (read: "casual") and less grind-your-face-off than the contemporary MMOs.

And that was VANILLA! How grindy must EQ have been!?

[Glorious Leader]

Funny isn't it? Since WoW was originally designed as a more accessible (read: "casual") and less grind-your-face-off than the contemporary MMOs.

And that was VANILLA! How grindy must EQ have been!?

I didn't play eq, played lineage 2 for a bit. You literally would spend like 8 or 9 hours on a boat just to get from A to B

[Dreknar20]

No not really. If that were true this conversation probably wouldn't be happening. Clearly not everyone is equal and not everybody is cut out to be a heroic raider. Exclusive content still exists unfortunately.

Anyone can do anything any other player can do. Period. Certain players do not have a special ticket or pass that only allows them to do certain things.

There is nothing wrong for having extra rewards for better players. After all they are better. If everyone got the same shit then whats the point? There would be nothing to make a player feel, badass, or awesome, or whatever.

[TheBigPapi]

Anyone can do anything any other player can do. Period. Certain players do not have a special ticket or pass that only allows them to do certain things.

There is nothing wrong for having extra rewards for better players. After all they are better. If everyone got the same shit then whats the point? There would be nothing to make a player feel, badass, or awesome, or whatever.

I'm with ya man but you're preaching to the wrong choir here. If a kid cries and cries for ice cream for breakfast and you give it to him, good luck taking it away from him. There's more people who likes the free loot LFR gives out than those who prefer a challenge so you'll get nothing but grief here. People seem confuse effort and dedication as entitlement and selfishness and, for whatever reason is used, they could never get to the higher end content and now the level of play required to succeed must be brought down so everyone get get a trophy like everyone is 5 playing T-Ball.

[Dreknar20]

they could never get to the higher end content and now the level of play required to succeed must be brought down so everyone get get a trophy like everyone is 5 playing T-Ball.

Reading that reminds me of lines from Carlin.
"You know what they call a loser these days? You were the last winner."
"They never get to hear the character-building words: Your a loser Bobby! You lost, your a loser Bobby!!"

[Glorious Leader]

Anyone can do anything any other player can do. Period. Certain players do not have a special ticket or pass that only allows them to do certain things.

There is nothing wrong for having extra rewards for better players. After all they are better. If everyone got the same shit then whats the point? There would be nothing to make a player feel, badass, or awesome, or whatever.

No they can't. I'm sorry. If they could their'd be no need for difficulty levels and everyone would be high warlord. Their are limits to what players can do, obviously not everyone is equal (either because of ability or commitment). This is so absolutely basic that I'm having trouble understanding why theirs even confusion about this. On the face of it what your suggesting is obviously absurd and obviously incorrect. A mentally handicapped player is not equal to Blood Legions prot paladin. That is one CLEAR example of a difference. The difference between players may be smaller than that example but they exist and not everyone can do what blood legion can do. This should be elementary but when you exist in a world of black and white it's hard to see gradation.

Again I see were back to a sad and pathetic attempt to frame this debate in some ridiculous moral context as if anybody shared your belief or your ethic. nobody cares. your preaching to deaf ears and I hope you recognize your a minority and a shrinking one at that.

[Seefer]

I find it extremely unlikely that so called "exclusive" content is what retains subscribers. Especially given what the developers have said on this matter. You people REALLY need to stretch to make your arguments work.

---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 03:04 AM ----------



Who is the third of your customer base? the third that left? you think they left because lfr granted them access to raiding? or you think the one third that left were all people who shared the same mind set about being shut out of content to cater to the 1%?

So you buy into everything Blizzard says? I don't, they will put a spin on anything to justify their fuck ups, heck look how many times they back tracked on difficulty ESPECIALLY Ghostcrawler!

[Glorious Leader]

So you buy into everything Blizzard says? I don't, they will put a spin on anything to justify their fuck ups, heck look how many times they back tracked on difficulty ESPECIALLY Ghostcrawler!

Nope. I just agree on the things they say that make sense and ring true in so far as my experience with the game is concerned. I happen to think they make plenty of bone headed decisions but probably coming from the opposite view of you and some of the conventionally accepted "wisdom" on this forum.

[Dreknar20]

No they can't. I'm sorry. If they could their'd be no need for difficulty levels and everyone would be high warlord. Their are limits to what players can do, obviously not everyone is equal (either because of ability or commitment).

unless your mentally or physcially handicapped, anyone can be as skilled as someone from Blood Legion. Fucking anyone. Those people do not have extra limbs or some special genes in their DNA called "pro at games".
Only reason not everyone is is because not everyone wants or cares enough to be at that level.

---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 04:27 AM ----------

Again I see were back to a sad and pathetic attempt to frame this debate in some ridiculous moral context as if anybody shared your belief or your ethic. nobody cares. your preaching to deaf ears and I hope you recognize your a minority and a shrinking one at that.

im guessing the TLDR version of that is "fuck you and whatever you say"

[TheBigPapi]

Reading that reminds me of lines from Carlin.
"You know what they call a loser these days? You were the last winner."
"They never get to hear the character-building words: Your a loser Bobby! You lost, your a loser Bobby!!"

lol i had the same thing in mind.

[Glorious Leader]

unless your mentally or physcially handicapped, anyone can be as skilled as someone from Blood Legion. Fucking anyone. Those people do not have extra limbs or some special genes in their DNA called "pro at games".
Only reason not everyone is is because not everyone wants or cares enough to be at that level.

---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 04:27 AM ----------


im guessing the TLDR version of that is "fuck you and whatever you say"

obviously that isn't true because well it isn't the case. not everyone can be a member of blood legion (regardless of physical or mental handicaps). Regardless of time invested either. I know of several real life examples of players who just aren't gonna be blood legion. They play more than anybody I know and love the game dearly but they don't have the ability and that's fine.

The important thing however is that you recognize their is OBVIOUSLY a skill differential between a handicapped player and a non handicapped player given that he or she is handicapped. Good. You've seen your first shade of gray. This is progress. Now the next step is to get you to acknowledge that theirs all sorts of different shades of grey (e.g skill caps) for all sorts of different players.

I did not thing that particular group of sentences needed a tl;dr. I though it was fairly succinct and to the point. You can however take whatever meaning from it as you wish.

[TheBigPapi]

unless your mentally or physcially handicapped, anyone can be as skilled as someone from Blood Legion. Fucking anyone. Those people do not have extra limbs or some special genes in their DNA called "pro at games".
Only reason not everyone is is because not everyone wants or cares enough to be at that level.

I dont get why people seem to think its unfair to reward skill or how its impossible for some to play this game exceptionally well. All sounds like bitter fat kids in gym class complaining that jocks get awards for winning a championship they want no part in working towards. Anyone can play this game well with just a little bit of effort. Its always been this way. Suddenly, just bringing up this idea of having to earn loot comes with the angriest backlash and BS cop out arguments.

[Glorious Leader]

I dont get why people seem to think its unfair to reward skill or how its impossible for some to play this game exceptionally well. All sounds like bitter fat kids in gym class complaining that jocks get awards for winning a championship they want no part in working towards. Anyone can play this game well with just a little bit of effort. Its always been this way. Suddenly, just bringing up this idea of having to earn loot comes with the angriest backlash and BS cop out arguments.

They do get rewarded. See that's the problem. It's never enough reward for you UNLESS I HAVE NO REWARD for what I can do. All for yourselves and nothing for other people. Like the kid who worked hard but then smashed his toy when he found out the neighbour had a SIMILAR toy... Your reward is not really the toy or the gear or the gold, it's the feeling you get lording over others in your epics while the rest of us squaller in the ghetto. Once that feeling is robbed from you then the gear (and the challenge) is of course meaningless and you don't give a shit. Now the usual narrative is that this is actually "achievement" and "accomplishment" and that's the feeling you get but the reality is those things are fucking meaningless to you except in so far as what other players can and can't do. "Accomplishment" really means I did this and the rest of scrubs didn't so now I can hold my nose up at you filth. "Achievement" means look at those scrubs in greens...

Once again when you stop getting enjoyment out of denying things to others you'll take the game for what it is. Grow up.

[TheBigPapi]

They do get rewarded. See that's the problem. It's never enough reward for you UNLESS I HAVE NO REWARD for what I can do. All for yourselves and nothing for other people. Like the kid who worked hard but then smashed his toy when he found out the neighbour had a SIMILAR toy... Your reward is not really the toy or the gear or the gold, it's the feeling you get lording over others in your epics while the rest of us squaller in the ghetto. Once that feeling is robbed from you then the gear (and the challenge) is of course meaningless and you don't give a shit.

This "everyone deserves a medal" sentiment is completely ridiculous and feeding into this entitled community and society. And on the topic of the various levels of skills and how people cant improve past certain levels and you should just let them wallow in mediocrity, pretty safe to say you arent a teacher. With enough time and effort, anyone with a developed mind can succeed in this game. Success has many forms and just because they arent in Blood Legion doesnt mean they arent any good at this game and are doomed to sit in LFR for eternity. People crave a challenge and deserved to be rewarded when something meaningful is accomplished. Not rewarded just for participating in any meaningless task you cover up with a fancy name.

[Glorious Leader]

This "everyone deserves a medal" sentiment is completely ridiculous and feeding into this entitled community and society. And on the topic of the various levels of skills and how people cant improve past certain levels and you should just let them wallow in mediocrity, pretty safe to say you arent a teacher. With enough time and effort, anyone with a developed mind can succeed in this game. Success has many forms and just because they arent in Blood Legion doesnt mean they arent any good at this game and are doomed to sit in LFR for eternity. People crave a challenge and deserved to be rewarded when something meaningful is accomplished. Not rewarded just for participating in any meaningless task you cover up with a fancy name.

I have the complex? what a joke. You've framed this entire discussion in some ridiculous moral and ethical narrative because you have a massive chip on your shoulder. I'm not saying they should wallow in mediocrity, I;m saying their are obvious limitations to how far people can and are willing to progress and get better. You live in a fucking fairy tale. The reality is obviously that not anyone with a "developed" mind can succeed at this game or frankly wants to. If either were the case then their would be no need for any additional difficulty and in fact progression would be non existant. You'd just "succeed". For the developers the loss of their subscriptions (from players who's skilled is capped either by ability or desire to commit to improvement) is still a loss and this whole "entitlement" narrative is the biggest fucking noise ever created on these forums. It's MEANINGLESS, it's a buzz word you people have created to to patronize other players and tell them that if only they listened to "big papi" and just knew better they could be all 1% to. YOU crave a challenge and more over you only crave a challenge that you can gimp (by stacking and abusing fotm classes and abilities) and the ONLY reward you crave and is satisfactory is one that just HAS to be denied to the majority of players to cater to your vanity. Grow up.

[TheBigPapi]

I have the complex? what a joke. You've framed this entire discussion in some ridiculous moral and ethical narrative because you have a massive chip on your shoulder. I'm not saying they should wallow in mediocrity, I;m saying their are obvious limitations to how far people can and are willing to progress and get better. Obviously not anyone with a "developed" mind can succeed at this game or frankly want's to. Either way for the developers the loss of their subscriptions is still a loss and this whole "entitlement" narrative is the biggest fucking noise ever created on these forums. It's MEANINGLESS, it's a buzz word you people have created to to patronize other players and tell them that if only they listened to "big papi" and just knew better they could be all 1% to. YOU crave a challenge and more over you only crave a challenge that you can gimp (by stacking and abusing fotm classes and abilities) and the ONLY reward you crave and is satisfactory is one that just HAS to be denied to the majority of players to cater to your vanity. Grow up.

LOL "grow up". No content was ever denied to players. They denied the content themselves through their own misconceptions or the limitations they put on themselves. I was never a 1% guy but I have enough faith in people that if they apply themselves that they can achieve far more than they believe they can. Nothing has to be denied but rewarding participation regardless of contribution and pushing for a solo experience breeds toxicity and lack of participation in the community. You want to play internet hero on these forums go right ahead. But if you believe half the crap you;ve been saying about how nobody could do raid content, you;re kidding yourself.

[Radio]

Let's say one day your child or a child that you are guardian for or hell even just related to gets a new toy. He got it because well he was a good little boy or girl and did his chores and so forth. He goes outside to play with that toy. He sees the neighbors kid has a similar or even exact same toy. He comes back inside the house, smashes the toy on the floor and throws a fit because he's enjoyment has been diminished by the fact that the neighbors kid has a similar or exact same toy. How would you handle this behavior as a parent and or guardian? Would you condone it? Would you reinforce it?

The reality is that people calling for more exclusive content are very much the spoiled children who derive their amusement from denying others access to the same things. They are the eric cartmans of the world denying kyle broflovski the toy, in fact they insist that kyle must stare around in awe while they strut their stuff (as if anyone ever remotely gave a flying fuck). They may attempt to couch and frame this behaviour using phrasing and terminologies that would lead you to believe their interests were entirely about the game but you needn't think that the case.

I think it's a little more akin to this analogy:

Kid 1 sees a toy in the store and asks his mother for it, his mother says that he'll have to work hard for a long time before she buys it because it is really expensive. Kid does chores for months and his mother finally agrees to purchase it. He then starts playing with it in his front hard, and Kid 2 from across the road sees him playing with it. Kid 2 asks Kid 1 if he can have a turn, Kid 1 says that he worked really hard for it so he wants to play with it himself. Kid 2 gets huffy and runs off and asks his mother for the same toy. Kid 2's mother then instantly drives off and later comes back with the same toy... basically, comparing this shit to children and toys is retarded and full of holes, I give up.


High-end raiders had always associated the end boss with the journey and work required to get there. That final boss kill was always amazing because it was the culmination of months of effort and struggle with their guild. Reaching the boss room and seeing that boss standing there awaiting them was a big part of that symbolism.

Fast-forward to today, high end raiders generally see the entire normal tier in 1 or 2 weeks then hop straight into heroics. The previous mystique and allure of being frightened by walking into Lei Shen's boss room and seeing him there waiting for you after struggling through his hordes of minions just doesn't happen anymore.

But, how do we let ALL players have FULL access to this content in such a way where ALL players have a journey, ALL players have an appropriate challenge, and NO players feel like the effort was not worth it.

Currently:
- all raiders see the content in some way, the only players who get something remotely resembling a journey these days are the normal mode guilds who can clear -slightly- faster than the LFR unlocking rate, heroic guilds are forced to clear normal first, so they see the content far too quickly, and LFR just provides an environment of shit and toxicity to distract from the actual content, and the journey is enforced through gating
- everyone raiding LFR finds it too easy (except for the odd few), hardcores find normal too easy, casuals find normal too hard, etfuckingcetera
- the only people who get rewarded for playing higher difficulties these days are the loot whores, hardcore lore players miss out because the bosses fall over in normal first (lore players love the idea that a boss is supposed to be scary), hardcore challenge players just aren't finding it

What can we do?

One step would be seperating normal and heroic completely, making heroic doable on day one, making them share a lockout (such that you can't just switch back to normal once you're out of progression time), and making it such that normal gear is not an upgrade over previous heroic tier.

This could then be followed up with making normals easier (and roll in the flex system if required).

Give heroic raiders no reason to want to do normal and normal raiders no reason to want to do heroic raids.

Give the two raid types meaningfully different looking gear, heroic can look more fancy for shits and giggles. Give them different set bonuses too!

Give the two difficulties differing storylines to an extent. Normal raiders and heroic raiders reach the final bosses different ways and in different rooms, and fight them in different ways. Heroic storyline feels significantly more... daring?

Make LFR gear utterly useless for the new normal/heroic raiding system so that it kills itself off through less players having reason to raid it, as an actual removal at this point would be more harm than it's worth.

Bring back the incremental raid buff/debuff/thing starting 2.5 months (ballpark) in and incrementing every month from there.

Bring back branching progression paths and the occasional optional boss, go back to using more realistic difficulty curves throughout the instance.

This gives casual players their own lore, their own journey, their own gear, their own challenge, and their own form of prestige.
This gives hardcore players their own lore, their own journey, their own gear, their own challenge, and their own form of prestige.
This gives mid-patch returning players ways to catch up.
This gives trade pugs/super-casuals more and more of a fighting chance to clear the instance as time goes on (journey!)
Noone feels invalidated by eachother as there's no point comparing them.

[Glorious Leader]

LOL "grow up". No content was ever denied to players. They denied the content themselves through their own misconceptions or the limitations they put on themselves. I was never a 1% guy but I have enough faith in people that if they apply themselves that they can achieve far more than they believe they can. Nothing has to be denied but rewarding participation regardless of contribution and pushing for a solo experience breeds toxicity and lack of participation in the community. You want to play internet hero on these forums go right ahead. But if you believe half the crap you;ve been saying about how nobody could do raid content, you;re kidding yourself.

The argument in favor of "exclusivity" is an argument in favor of denying people content. After all if anyone could do it then it wouldn't be very exclusive. That's why LFR is so terrible and why epics have so little meaning now. Well clearly not everyone can do heroic raiding for whatever reason, either through ability or lack of commitment to such things. I never said nobody could do raid content. You continually misrepresent my arguments either wilfully or just out of plain ignorance. In any event your position is foolish and unsustainable. Exclusivity is poor design. PERIOD.

---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 05:18 AM ----------

Noone feels invalidated by eachother as there's no point comparing them.

Or people can grow up and stop deriving their enjoyment from denying other players.

[Radio]

Or people can grow up and stop deriving their enjoyment from denying other players.

Too bad no one is getting true enjoyment at the moment.

[TheBigPapi]

I think it's a little more akin to this analogy:

Kid 1 sees a toy in the store and asks his mother for it, his mother says that he'll have to work hard for a long time before she buys it because it is really expensive. Kid does chores for months and his mother finally agrees to purchase it. He then starts playing with it in his front hard, and Kid 2 from across the road sees him playing with it. Kid 2 asks Kid 1 if he can have a turn, Kid 1 says that he worked really hard for it so he wants to play with it himself. Kid 2 gets huffy and runs off and asks his mother for the same toy. Kid 2's mother then instantly drives off and later comes back with the same toy... basically, comparing this shit to children and toys is retarded and full of holes, I give up.


High-end raiders had always associated the end boss with the journey and work required to get there. That final boss kill was always amazing because it was the culmination of months of effort and struggle with their guild. Reaching the boss room and seeing that boss standing there awaiting them was a big part of that symbolism.

Fast-forward to today, high end raiders generally see the entire normal tier in 1 or 2 weeks then hop straight into heroics. The previous mystique and allure of being frightened by walking into Lei Shen's boss room and seeing him there waiting for you after struggling through his hordes of minions just doesn't happen anymore.

But, how do we let ALL players have FULL access to this content in such a way where ALL players have a journey, ALL players have an appropriate challenge, and NO players feel like the effort was not worth it.

Currently:
- all raiders see the content in some way, the only players who get something remotely resembling a journey these days are the normal mode guilds who can clear -slightly- faster than the LFR unlocking rate, heroic guilds are forced to clear normal first, so they see the content far too quickly, and LFR just provides an environment of shit and toxicity to distract from the actual content, and the journey is enforced through gating
- everyone raiding LFR finds it too easy (except for the odd few), hardcores find normal too easy, casuals find normal too hard, etfuckingcetera
- the only people who get rewarded for playing higher difficulties these days are the loot whores, hardcore lore players miss out because the bosses fall over in normal first (lore players love the idea that a boss is supposed to be scary), hardcore challenge players just aren't finding it

What can we do?

One step would be seperating normal and heroic completely, making heroic doable on day one, making them share a lockout (such that you can't just switch back to normal once you're out of progression time), and making it such that normal gear is not an upgrade over previous heroic tier.

This could then be followed up with making normals easier (and roll in the flex system if required).

Give heroic raiders no reason to want to do normal and normal raiders no reason to want to do heroic raids.

Give the two raid types meaningfully different looking gear, heroic can look more fancy for shits and giggles. Give them different set bonuses too!

Give the two difficulties differing storylines to an extent. Normal raiders and heroic raiders reach the final bosses different ways and in different rooms, and fight them in different ways. Heroic storyline feels significantly more... daring?

Make LFR gear utterly useless for the new normal/heroic raiding system so that it kills itself off through less players having reason to raid it, as an actual removal at this point would be more harm than it's worth.

Bring back the incremental raid buff/debuff/thing starting 2.5 months (ballpark) in and incrementing every month from there.

Bring back branching progression paths and the occasional optional boss, go back to using more realistic difficulty curves throughout the instance.

This gives casual players their own lore, their own journey, their own gear, their own challenge, and their own form of prestige.
This gives hardcore players their own lore, their own journey, their own gear, their own challenge, and their own form of prestige.
This gives mid-patch returning players ways to catch up.
This gives trade pugs/super-casuals more and more of a fighting chance to clear the instance as time goes on (journey!)
Noone feels invalidated by eachother as there's no point comparing them.

I think this all would actually be a good step in the right direction. I think flex will eventually start phasing LFR out thought which is prolly a good thing. Idk if they can ever get back to a 2 difficulty system by making its like Wrath. Only way I could see that would be Flex = Normal and Normal = heroic to some extent. All in all, your ideas look good.