Why do lesser skilled players feel entitled to see content?

[Jawless Jones]

why do higher skilled players feel entitled to deny other players content?

[AlmightyGerkin]

Why do they?

If you are a terrible player who has no chance to ever get into a raiding guild or pug normal modes, why do you expect to see raid content? Thats the reason LFR was implemented but WHY do terribads demand content just for them? LFR was made to see content, but why did Blizzard do so?

I just don't understand how hard can it be to read up on your class for 1 hour, ask a better player for tips and then improve yourself to get into raiding...


I think WoW is going down the toilet if something isn't done soon to stop catering to the majority. Dont get me wrong, im fine with catering to casuals, but not like this. Not this way with giving welfare "special" content just for them rather than incentive to improve your gaming skills.

I've been there, clueless. I learned, asked better players. I've been high rated in PvP and raided top PvE content but we ALL started on the bottom some time. Why cant those who run LFR do the same?

Because people like to do what they want to do. If people want to get into high end tier raiding ask people wo know the class, read guides. If not who gives a shit. People like to play the game at their own pace not what others demand them to do.

[Zaqwert]

Turn the question around: Why do "leet" players feel they deserve more content?

I mean, they're a small (but vocal) minority of players. Why should they get special treatment (heroic modes, heroic bosses, etc) that the rest of us don't get? Is it really worth it for Blizz to be spending all that development time and $$ on a bunch of elitist and sometimes whiny jerks?

/sarcasm off

Does Lebron James deserve more money for playing basketball than you or I do? Why is it fair he makes so much money just because he's good at it.

Achievement, talent, and hard work should be rewarded.
Failure, stupidity, and laziness should be punished.

These are fundamentals of a well functioning society and without them everything goes to shit.

[Wynnyelle]

Why shouldnt players who are better than you and put in more effort/skill into something not be better rewarded? Is this such a distasteful concept?

It's a game. If you're playing it for rewards then I'd say you're playing it for the wrong reasons. Personally, I play games to see all that it has to offer me. If I can't see all of that, it's a waste of time and money.

[Dreknar20]

actually affect my enjoyment of the game I play with individuals who share my gaming philosophy?

its an MMO, what others do does have an effect

Being one of the few to have a cool something is cool
To have something everyone has is not

[Deleted]

Im not an elitist, im a realist.

And you totally missed the point. I feel "entitled" to say that people should LEARN and not get FREE WELFARE SPECIAL content thrown at their face for zero effort or commitment.

I have a problem with people not wanting to have something as an unreachable goal and strive to get to that goal. You casuals take everything I say and spit it out out of context.

OP I have a job, I finish work at 1800 every night of the week save weekends, last thing I want to do when I get home is do some serious raiding, I know folks who got stress ulcers from doing hardcore raiding. I have not raided properly since MC/BWL when I was in a 'proper' raiding guild but I didn't enjoy it that much. I like LFR, I like that it lets me see the content that I pay for. Yes I PUGGED ICC back in the day and it was enjoyable, and flexi-raiding will probably bring back that, as well as arses standing around going "nuuu! You can't come 'cause yer 'av nu explerihnce' to which you reply 'so how can I get the experience if I can't come?' and it just confuses them but I digress. Oh and I raided Kara and ZG (back in the day) and ZA when it came out. Content should be for everyone, I didn't see inside the black temple until wrath came out but was glad I did, even though I would have enjoyed seeing it back in the day when it was content. LRF/Flex is a good thing.

You're not special because you're good at a game. If you think you are *pats on head* good for you. Now sit in the corner and shut up.

[Baine]

Why do they?

If you are a terrible player who has no chance to ever get into a raiding guild or pug normal modes, why do you expect to see raid content? Thats the reason LFR was implemented but WHY do terribads demand content just for them? LFR was made to see content, but why did Blizzard do so?

I just don't understand how hard can it be to read up on your class for 1 hour, ask a better player for tips and then improve yourself to get into raiding...


I think WoW is going down the toilet if something isn't done soon to stop catering to the majority. Dont get me wrong, im fine with catering to casuals, but not like this. Not this way with giving welfare "special" content just for them rather than incentive to improve your gaming skills.

I've been there, clueless. I learned, asked better players. I've been high rated in PvP and raided top PvE content but we ALL started on the bottom some time. Why cant those who run LFR do the same?

God you have no psychology. Those "terribads" just enjoy the game as it is, even if they are mediocre at it. It would be better if they could understand they would be more powerful with a bit of training.

On the other hand, if they would have no access to LFR, they would be stuck with dungeon blues 463 during all the expansion? There is no progression there and they would unsub.

[Zaqwert]

why do higher skilled players feel entitled to deny other players content?

Did the Baltimore Ravens and the San Francisco 49'ers deny other people their right to play in the Super Bowl last year?

Not everyone in life is entitled to everything.

[AlmightyGerkin]

Why do they?

If you are a terrible player who has no chance to ever get into a raiding guild or pug normal modes, why do you expect to see raid content? Thats the reason LFR was implemented but WHY do terribads demand content just for them? LFR was made to see content, but why did Blizzard do so?

I just don't understand how hard can it be to read up on your class for 1 hour, ask a better player for tips and then improve yourself to get into raiding...


I think WoW is going down the toilet if something isn't done soon to stop catering to the majority. Dont get me wrong, im fine with catering to casuals, but not like this. Not this way with giving welfare "special" content just for them rather than incentive to improve your gaming skills.

I've been there, clueless. I learned, asked better players. I've been high rated in PvP and raided top PvE content but we ALL started on the bottom some time. Why cant those who run LFR do the same?

Because people like to do what they want to do. If people want to get into high end tier raiding ask people who know the class, read guides. If not who gives a shit. People like to play the game at their own pace not what others demand them to do. Not every subscriber is going to sacrifice majority of their time to raid, pvp, etc. People have the option and not conform to the raiding community.

[Normie]

Because there's an entire generation that have been constantly told by their parents, their teachers, and the media how awesome and talented they are no matter what.

They got trophies when their little league team lost every game. In fact, they might have played in a league where they didn't even keep score. You seen, you can't have winners and losers, because "losing" might damage their self esteem.

This bullshit is a complete non sequitur.

It's a role playing game. Game. You have every right to expect that when you pay to play a game, you have access to all the fun parts. That is not an unreasonable way of thinking, because it is a game, and when you are purchasing and playing a game, you are paying to be entertained and have your desires fulfilled.

If you were recruiting people for a commando raid or for a trip around the world in a sailboat or to rewrite Windows 9 in six months then yes you should weed out the babies. But this is a damn video game and anyone can buy it and every customer deserves to be served enjoyably and fairly by the game.

[DeadmanWalking]

Except you don't unless you kill Ra-Den.

Either you derive this elitist attitude for killing hardcore bosses when the rest cant or you are not elite because someone else beat an easier boss in LFR, you LfR haters need to get in message and get back to us.

[Ichifails]

You know what I don't understand?

Why people like you make the same, pointless topic over and over. There are dozens, literally, of LFR QQ topics on these forums. Your post is neither new, nor original, you could have just as easily added your 'thoughts' to one of them. Instead, the forums are now further cluttered with yet another useless, flame-war bait topic.

Here's some advice: worry less about what other people can do and worry about yourself. Its not hard.

This is a video game. It isn't real. If you think any of this matters, at any difficulty, you need to seriously re-assess your priorities in life.

Want to know why? Because everything feels pointless. I get it that my 15$ = your 15$ but the content is there, all you have to do want it and you will get it.
There's this misconception that YOU NEED 149214 HOURS TO BE GOOD AT WOW.
I don't understand that, it takes around 10-20 minutes to learn to play a class at a decent level. A decent enough level to clear normals and most of HC's.
It takes around 2-3 (let's say 10 attempts if you are a slow learner) to understand the mechanics of a boss fight.
I might be some super wow machine made out of cyberpunk robo T-rexes but usually that's long enough to know everything you are doing in my opinion.
I chose to play with friends so naturally we have people that have no clue what they are doing. Even still we managed to get 10/13 HC's this tier without putting in THAT much time.

But the question is WHY? Why would you put those 2-3 hours a day, 3 times a week into raiding? Why would you bother knowing what you should do?
- Gear stopped being an incentive (3 sets that look the same, you can't really tell who raids what if you don't inspect them) and there's also Xmog (and that's awesome don't get me wrong).
- Mounts and titles can be obtained after a tier can be soloed so they are obsolete as well.
- LFR requires no skill at all (I actually wanted to check what happens if I allow a Wrathguard to do a fight with me only casting a Doom+IS for the opener and it came out 9th...) so people just get dumber and dumber


TLR - The content can be done while you are AFK = people don't bother and they will want easier and easier content.
- There's no way to say if someone is AFK or actually puts effort into the game without inspecting them(let's face it, how many times do you go inspecting random people?) and a lot of people miss the feeling that they have something special

[lawow74]

I have a problem with people not wanting to have something as an unreachable goal and strive to get to that goal. You casuals take everything I say and spit it out out of context.

That's all fine and good when it's a real life thing where the only cost is time and effort, and will have actual lasting impact on your life. Not when it's a video game thing where you're paying a subscription, the same subscription as everyone else, to have access to the content, which has zero impact on your actual real life.

For most people, they're a diversion, something fun to do when not occupied with other real and meaningful things, like work/school and family/friends. Things which will still have value twenty years down the road when the server bits you're talking about are long gone and no one will notice or care about your involvement beyond 'oh, you played that game, neat'.

And I would think for someone who's doing HC raiding, it wouldn't matter that people are doing lesser versions of the raids for less rewards. You get your rewards for your effort, they get their rewards for their effort. How do their rewards hurt your rewards? You got to fight a boss most of them will probably never see at current, if ever at all. That doesn't make up for it?

I would think a realist would take this in perspective. Unless of course you aren't one...

[Airwaves]

why do higher skilled players feel entitled to deny other players content?

Because they aren't that skilled. I don't even play anymore and I know I am a better player then most "hardcore" raiders now days.

[Aqua]

Why do "leet sauze" players feel entitled to say who gets to see content?

Okay theoretically here... let's say overtime these 'leetsauce' players. Let's call them the core playerbase... Eventually throw up their hands and realize that sinking all this time into a game that only barely rewards them slightly more than a player who only put a few hours in is a pretty raw deal, they slowly quit for greener pastures or join the crowds of slower and more leisurely paced players or just plain forget the mmo nonsense, their time put in has been invalidated so they accept that 'it's just not really worth it...'.

The heroic modes, now quite redundant from a money making stand point(as it seems barely 0.05% of the total WoW population completes them within the timeframe of the patch they are released) are scrapped and the bar is lowered to Normal modes only. This situation of demanding that the 'game' be removed from the game so you can sit on your conveyor belt and watch the movie you payed for is non-conductive to keeping the GAME going, people throw the term 'accessibility' around like this is supposed to be an experience akin to an amusement park. Casual players while a majority, don't realize that the catharsis of bettering yourself is what keeps them interested, and keeps them hanging around similarly minded individuals. There was ALWAYS some thing to do to better yourself in minor ways, whether it was a piece of gear from a dungeon, or mastering a skill, or a talent, or finding ways to cheese certain mechanics.

Slowly and more quickly, casual players will just sub for the LFR, the patch story of the 2 month period, get some gear, proclaim that yes this is a nice room full of baddies but ill tempered idiotic 'other players', none of which really have any idea what they're doing since running up to a boss and smacking a few buttons will make 'the movie' play. And unsub just as quickly... until they don't sub back at all because the process has become repetitive and slow moving for the 'I want it now' mentality (in that case I recommend a book, or a movie...not a video game)

THE ALLURE OF HIGHER CHALLENGE, of story, of unreachables, being just out of grasp was something that kept people subscribed. Whether they realized it or not, even back when I was a little scrub-nugget in vanilla wandering around in my mutant conglomerate of greens and white gear with barely a clue... I kept subbed because people I knew raided... and raiding sounded awesome, people had fun, hard though it might be. The veil wasn't even lifted for me until BC, I didn't raid until then, but the promise of harder challenge and friends keeping that hype filtered down into the rest of the game kept me interested for years. The mystique of the notion you might say.

Now when you place the bar so low and cater to absolutely everyone who merely just payed for the game, the notion of it being a 'game' has been watered down. The idea that time = reward has been lost, it now translates into a dangerous slide of money = reward, with less and less time required in between to keep the illusion aaand the 'sub time', going. And raiders, though sometimes petty and short sighted, are feeling this has been encroached upon just a little too far. Dungeons were a splendid introduction to raiding... And again, fed that mystery by weaving the story of the 'raid' and it's workings into those bosses and mini themes later down the line.

I feel LFR...was a bit of a step too fast, too shortsighted. And flex raids should have been what normal mode raids 'evolved' into. Accessible, easy for anyone with a loose but not perfect understanding of their skills to accomplish, and nurturing realm ties and rewarding effort. As it is, normals have become quite a road block, and LFR the penultimate goal of anyone who doesn't have a weekly schedule that would make Adolf Hitler go; 'fuck that'. And heroics for....well masochists at this point.

There's middle ground, and things to improve upon, but this whining about the game being too hard has been around as much as the 'leetsauce' players moaning about 'dem dirty casuals', both sides give as good as they get thanks and there is some middle ground to reach. Sometimes, I see great suggestions and we'll have to see how flex raiding comes into life. But thinking of the game as 'I pay to see this so I must get to' is ...well wrong, you pay for access, yes, but that's as far as it goes when it comes to a video game. The GAME is for you to try and work through. I payed for Sonic 2. I only see as many Zones as I managed to play through. Should I be writing angry emails to Sega because I choked on Metropolis Zone for weeks and was too frustrated and out of time to play any longer?

*shrug*

[melodramocracy]

If you buy a $50 book, and someone rips out half the book: How would you feel?

You paid for the book, you should be allowed to read all of it.

No one is ripping your book in half. You are allowed to read all of it. Start reading.

The better analogy would be handing someone Gravity's Rainbow, and them complaining that it's too hard to read (or the Wheel of Time series, and them saying that it takes too long to finish). No one is keeping you from finishing it except you.

Players are what they are by their own choosing. This persecution complex about how unfair the game is, generally needs to be thrown right out the window.

[DeadmanWalking]

Did the Baltimore Ravens and the San Francisco 49'ers deny other people their right to play in the Super Bowl last year?

Not everyone in life is entitled to everything.

Did they demand shutting down high school football games so their Super Bowl felt more special? Come back with a real reason next time because your bucket is full of holes and doesn't hold water.

[macdisciple]

Why do they?

If you are a terrible player who has no chance to ever get into a raiding guild or pug normal modes, why do you expect to see raid content? Thats the reason LFR was implemented but WHY do terribads demand content just for them? LFR was made to see content, but why did Blizzard do so?

I just don't understand how hard can it be to read up on your class for 1 hour, ask a better player for tips and then improve yourself to get into raiding...


I think WoW is going down the toilet if something isn't done soon to stop catering to the majority. Dont get me wrong, im fine with catering to casuals, but not like this. Not this way with giving welfare "special" content just for them rather than incentive to improve your gaming skills.

I've been there, clueless. I learned, asked better players. I've been high rated in PvP and raided top PvE content but we ALL started on the bottom some time. Why cant those who run LFR do the same?

Why do you care what other people do with their time? You do not need to play with them. It's really no concern of yours in any shape or form.

[Fenixdown]

Because 9 times out of 10 said better player is a complete ass who refuses to help and demands those asking for help to "do it themselves" and if you say that doesn't happen you are insane. It happens frequently, and needs to be dealt with. Just because you're good at a game doesn't make you or any one else better than someone else. I don't care how much time and effort you put into something designed for fun and enjoyment.

The only thing that really ruins this game are the 1% crying that they deserve to be better than the rest of the PAYING customers. How hard is it to understand that the game wouldn't be worth keeping up to date if the only thing paying the bills was the "hardcore" elitists who are "entitled" to everything [purple]?

Thank you, someone with common sense. Can we find more like that?

It's funny how people like the OP forget what raiding was like in Cataclysm after Tier 11. Firelands and Dragon Soul. A combined total of bosses equal to heroic Throne of Thunder. Wanna know why? Because LFR did not exist. There was no rhyme or reason for Blizzard to dump additional funds into large raids because it simply was counterproductive for the amount of actual profit they were gaining the company.

Let me explain in terms you might understand. You run a sandwich company and you make a sandwich so good that everyone wants it. The ingredients for this sandwich, which is actually enjoyed by very few people because they have to be a member of your V.I.P program, is wholly paid for by everyone that isn't a part of said V.I.P. program. Eventually, those customers are going to stop giving you money, and that sandwich is going to have to take some budget cuts to it.

OR...you make a cheaper version of the same sandwich and sell it to everyone, and they buy it, giving you more reason to spend money on the better ingredients for your V.I.P. customers.

If none of that made any sense to you, OP...or the next 357,000 people who make this exact same thread with a different title...then you're so far beyond the minimum intelligence barrier required for any normal mode raider that I have to think why your guild is obviously carrying you through content. If you can't grasp simple business mechanics, then how are you going to understand heroic Lei Shin mechanics?

LFR is the reason we went from Firelands to Throne of THunder for our second tier of content, and the raeson we went from Dragon Soul to Siege of Orgrimmar for our third. If anything, the thing you should be wondering OP is why you haven't thanked those "terrible LFR players" enough for giving you a better raiding experience.

[Dakara]

Are you fucking kidding me? Have you ever raided at all? It takes time effort and skill. You cant just walk into a raid and expect to faceroll everything. (inb4 easy content jokes)

And no it doesnt make me feel special, it makes me feel like I actually get satisfaction out of this dwindling game, Ive been casual since MoP came out, and ive only just recently joined a raiding guild. I got accepted by being totally honest with the people, saying I sucked and I havent raided for a long time. I got in and ive been learning the fights again, LFR really does destroy the joy of raiding, in every sense.

Im being punished for my mistakes, and im learning my rotations again, its pretty fun, and it only requires my presence for a few hours every week. Its also making me better at the game in general, my gears getting better giving me more access to brawlers guild fights I previously couldnt out dps. And im more savy with the control I have over my character, making soloing and PvP a lot easier.

People just dont care about progression anymore, it took me 5 minutes to get into a HC raiding guild, they are literally begging for players. Getting into normal raiding isnt that hard and it only requires a little more time than your used to. But the satisfaction and improvements it brings to your gameplay are worth it. Not to mention its the only way to make friends in this dead boring world they've created.

Congratulations. So by your own admission, you've been casual until recently, only just started raiding, and are now qualified to lecture us all about it? Just making sure we're on the same page here....

Anyway, I'll bite, and jump headfirst into this pissing contest. Yes, I've raided... once or twice. I joined my first raiding guild early 2005 after being 60 for a month or so, and I raided, pretty much nonstop in progression guilds up until Cata where I came and went, then gave up in MOP... not because of anything Blizzard did, but because Real Life called.

The Skill cap in this game, is not very high, and individual skill only gets you bragging rights. What it comes down to, is how much time your raiders are willing to put in, both in and outside the game, and how organized/dedicated your raid leaders are. The "Skill" you refer to, is merely pressing buttons on a keyboard in the correct order without standing in fire.

You know the biggest reason why Top raiding guilds are top? Because they live and breathe WOW, they put more attempts into Progression bosses in one night than the average guild does in a month and have extremely deep pockets (gold) to back them up... you go through a lot of consumables when you raid at that level. But of course, you know that... don't you?

Yes, they are very skilled players. But they key to their success is their devotion and time investment... which is why so many of them burn out.