Popular arguments against the Demon Hunter for the next expansion, I strike back!

[Deleted]

It's a popular fan theory for the next class in WoW, discussed on a lot of boards. The supershort version of the theory is:

(1) WoW classes are based mostly off classes/abilities that appeared in WCIII. Tinker is one in WCIII that is yet to appear in game.
gun toting class would balance things.

(2) In terms of game balance and loot rolls, there are already 3 cloth, leather, and plate wearing classes- and only hunters use ranged weapons. The game could do with another mail wearing gun-toting class- but it would need to feel really different from hunter.

(3) In terms of pure DPS, DPS/tank, and DPS/Tank/gealer hybrid class spec arrangements, the game could do with another hybrid class.

Put these things together, and a potential class which could check all these boxes would be tinker:

Ah okay, thanks for clearing that up - sounds pretty neat.

[Wildmoon]

1.What people need is WC3'sDH not D3's DH.

2.Metamorphois is an iconic ability for DH. It's the ability that tells you what it means to be DH not twinblades or blindfold.

3.If Blizzard gives us DH that can;t reach the pinnacle of power of DH then it means Blizzard gives us gimped DH. Don't forget that we are supposed to be the heroes of Azeroth.

4.You can't really purge them because they are not corrupted in warcraft sense in the first place. Illidan has never lost his mind before he lost to Arthas. They embraced Legion's magic for the purpose of fighting fire with fire. That's the whole point of DH.

5.DH could come with Metamorphosis if Blizzard really want to. Tweaking the mechanic for DH's metamor and changing the name for Warlock's metamor are not that hard to do.

[Yarathir]

Wrathion, who has knowledge enough of the Burning Legion invasion to plan to unite Azeroth under a single banner, knew that had Varian Wrynn chosen to declare himself Warchief there would have been a minimum of a year of fighting left, and time to recoup massive casualties from taking Thunder Bluff. This predicts a MINIMUM 1 year gap in game time. Note in this that the events of Wrath of the Lich King took less than a year in game time by Wowpedia's estimation, and you can check their evidence on their Timeline page. Given this I would very much imagine that the next expansion is not the Burning Legion.

Good enough?

This is what I wanted to type but summarized. Yes, I think we'll deal with Neptulon, Azshara and N'zoth first.

[DeadmanWalking]

The orginal demon hunter was Illidan, enhanced by Sargeras. The out of the box demon hunter has arcane tattoos that enhance strength, mystical powers and physical resilance. They also are blinded but gain an arcane sight like you get to use in felwoods to detect that that druids are actually demon possessed. They traditionally carry the double glaves.

Then as they kill more and more demons they themselves become more demonic in nature and physicality, thus even though demon hunters seek to erradicate demons they eventually become greater than that which they hunt. Destined for great evil, and shunned by normal societies. Illidan's transformation and empowerment is enhanced by the skull of Gul'dan, absorbing its essence (which once was used to destroy outworld) causing him to gain more power than most demon hunters are capable of. This is when Illidan gains access to metamorph, horns, hooves, wings ect. He teaches this to all of his demon hunter students from that point on.

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Blizzard also stated in korea that it is interested in a herioc class in the future but thats not likely to happen in the near future (aka next expansion).

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1.What people need is WC3'sDH not D3's DH.

2.Metamorphois is an iconic ability for DH. It's the ability that tells you what it means to be DH not twinblades or blindfold.

3.If Blizzard gives us DH that can;t reach the pinnacle of power of DH then it means Blizzard gives us gimped DH. Don't forget that we are supposed to be the heroes of Azeroth.

4.You can't really purge them because they are not corrupted in warcraft sense in the first place. Illidan has never lost his mind before he lost to Arthas. They embraced Legion's magic for the purpose of fighting fire with fire. That's the whole point of DH.

5.DH could come with Metamorphosis if Blizzard really want to. Tweaking the mechanic for DH's metamor and changing the name for Warlock's metamor are not that hard to do.

There is no reason why a demon hunter could not use metamorph to enhance their melee attacks, demo warlocks use it to enhance spell and dot damage. Making it for double glave use in melee or possibly tanking would make it unique to Demon Hunters.

Orginally Illidan didn't get metamorph straight out of the box, it was something he got after absorbing the skull, so demon hunters could also not have it to show that they are not following Illidans teaching.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Demon Hunter use to be a popular speculation...but id say tinker class is more plausible and speculated right now than demon hunters although i dont think there will be any new class next exp.

Demon Hunter retains the popular edge, though I will relent it has waned a bit.

But not due to the theory being full of holes. It's because people have their doubts about Blizz doing another class right away after the Monk. The peak of the DH's popularity was before we were led to believe the Legion would be the theme next expansion. After we were led to believe that, a lot of people said "it'd be awesome, but Blizz will only do a class every other expansions." And the tinkerer, a class that has no major expansion to tie it to, began to rise because no matter what Expansion VI is, the tinkerer can work.


Well we found out yesterday that Blizz may NOT be doing the Legion next. And I think if the trademark comes out and clearly isn't a legion expansion name, we'll see the DH rocket upward in popularity again. Because for sure the level 100 expansion will be the legion, and if that expansion is VI, then the Demon Hunter becomes almost a guarantee.

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Did the OP just give up mid-way through this thread? LoL!

It is quite difficult to base the implementation of the Demon Hunter on good arguments. Everything we know about Blizzard class design and class decisions in recent years says that its not happening.

Everything about Blizz's class design says it CAN happen. Because Blizz's whole design philosophy as of Cataclysm is quite simply "damn Warcraft 3, we're designing for World of Warcraft now."

They could have skipped the Monk because "Brewmaster is too narrow to make a class out of" or skipped DK because "One of their 4 WC3 abilities is taken." Instead they edited the WC3 concept, and edited other class abilities to make it work.

Blizz's game, blizz's rules. And Blizz will do what fits and is popular.

[Deleted]

Why are you so obsessed with the Demon Hunter? Though I agree with your opinion.

[Talen]

There is no reason why a demon hunter could not use metamorph to enhance their melee attacks, demo warlocks use it to enhance spell and dot damage. Making it for double glave use in melee or possibly tanking would make it unique to Demon Hunters.

Except Warlocks already have it. It wouldn't be unique.

Orginally Illidan didn't get metamorph straight out of the box, it was something he got after absorbing the skull, so demon hunters could also not have it to show that they are not following Illidans teaching.

Other Warlocks in game also use meta. Its a skill very much associated with the class.

My own feeling is that because it has "hunter" in the name, because it shares a large toolset with Warlocks, because Warlocks already incorporate the "Demon" theme, because there is little point in redeveloping the class that has little in common except the name....then Demon Hunters will not be a playable standalone class. If it's brought in, I'd say it would be associated with the Warlock class and simply be seen as a melee focussed Warlock spec.

That's not say Blizzard can't or won't develop the class, but there just seems to be too much baggage for it to be a likely possibility. Tinker or Warden seem much likelier as a standalone class though I expect some degree of class/spec revamp likelier still

EJL

[Teriz]

Everything about Blizz's class design says it CAN happen. Because Blizz's whole design philosophy as of Cataclysm is quite simply "damn Warcraft 3, we're designing for World of Warcraft now."

Except they brought in a race, lore, and a class concept from WC3 as the central theme for MoP. Oops.

They could have skipped the Monk because "Brewmaster is too narrow to make a class out of" or skipped DK because "One of their 4 WC3 abilities is taken." Instead they edited the WC3 concept, and edited other class abilities to make it work.

Blizz's game, blizz's rules. And Blizz will do what fits and is popular.

Brewmaster was too narrow, which is why they expanded it to "Monk".

What larger RPG archetype can Demon Hunters be expanded into? Please give us some class names. We both know if you change the name into something else people immediately lose interest.

Tinkers can be expanded into Technician, Inventor, Artificer, Mechanic, and none of its abilities are within the spellbooks of other classes. Which is why it is a stronger class concept. You can change the Tinker class concept into any one of those names, and no one would mind, because the concept still works.

Demon Hunters can't be expanded because its archetype is too narrow, and most of its narrow archetype is owned by Warlocks.

And again, Warlock Death Coil wasn't the same ability as Death Knight Death Coil. Please stop bringing that up. It isn't the same thing as what's going on with DH's, Rogues, and Warlocks.

If Blizz did what was "popular", we would have had DHs in TBC. The fact that we didn't shows that Blizzard is more concerned about game balance and class distinctiveness than satisfying a vocal minority on a message board.

[Deleted]

Metamorphosis for warlocks only is a lame argument.
It's like saying there can only be one ball of fire spell in the game. Hark and lo, fireball, pyroblast, lava burst(or whatever the shaman have)
It's all in the animation and name. Give the demon form an update for DH, make it a different mechanic and call it "Demon Within"(idea) and all is set.

We used to have 2 Death Coils in the game...

[Deleted]

Tinkers can be expanded into Technician, Inventor, Artificer, Mechanic, and none of its abilities are within the spellbooks of other classes. Which is why it is a stronger class concept. You can change the Tinker class concept into any one of those names, and no one would mind, because the concept still works.

I'd throw in Alchemist too. The other big difference, though, is that DH is only relevant to like two races. Pretty much all races bar Nelves and Tauren have some cool spin on technology- established NPCs and organisations to associate with the new class.

Like I'd instantly link Forsaken alchemists to the Royal Apothecary Society, and can easily see a history and place for Draenei articifers what with their spaceship and everything.

[The Madgod]

as for rp. warlocks.. are more feared than demon hunters

Not true at all. Warlocks are shunned by society but they're still allowed to work within those confines... Demon hunters are a last resort. You don't see a demon hunter within civilized areas. They're out in the wilderness... for a reason.

And this quote is based on what, 10 years old Warcraft 3 unit description? May I remind you that Draenei at that time were miserable beings that we now call "Broken"

Lore can be molded into something new. Broken are former draenei. Demon Hunters have an unusual branch that practices demon magic instead of arcane to fight demons. Simple as that.

And all lore since then that dealt with demon hunters has shown that they primarily use demonic magics.

Lore can be molded, you're absolutely right, but to do a 180 right now, after years of lore showing whats up? Bad decision.

What I am saying is not unreasonable, it is imagination, anything can happen with magical powers in a world as big as World of Warcraft.

It's also not what the demon hunter has been portrayed as by Blizzard since Warcraft III was released 11 years ago.

You don't forsake the core of a class just to add it to the game.

We'd have a "Demon Hunter"... but it wouldn't really be an actual demon hunter.

[Deleted]

Cant see how can people hope on things like Demon Hunters or High Elves...

Hmba..

Demon Hunters are : Melee / leather wearing lock's copy.

High Elves are : other elves

Ergo.

Tinker is coming next .. if there will be a next one that is.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Except they brought in a race, lore, and a class concept from WC3 as the central theme for MoP. Oops.

False. The Monk was never in WC3. Nor was Pandaria, the Mogu, Mantid, Hozen, Jinyu, or even Garrosh Hellscream.

The only thing ripped directly out of WC3 without heavy editing is the Pandaren race.

Brewmaster was too narrow, which is why they expanded it to "Monk".

What larger RPG archetype can Demon Hunters be expanded into? Please give us some class names. We both know if you change the name into something else people immediately lose interest.

Nothing. However, 4 abilities still do not make a class. The WC3 DK was a mounted necromancer, they never had Blood or Frost specs, only Unholy. Not to mention the fact that in WoW the DK cannot fight while mounted.

The same would likely be done with Demon Hunter. Their WC3 abilities would mostly be tossed into one spec (Metamorphosis in my theory goes to their tanking spec as a "defenseive stance" ability) and more new specs would have to be created for them.

I've taken some flak for saying D3-style ranged spec instead of just a ranged caster, but I think the fact hunters have undisputed rights to ranged weapons warrants it.

Tinkers can be expanded into Technician, Inventor, Artificer, Mechanic, and none of its abilities are within the spellbooks of other classes. Which is why it is a stronger class concept. You can change the Tinker class concept into any one of those names, and no one would mind, because the concept still works.

The only reason it is a stronger option is because it is an entirely bland concept. We will never have an expansion focusing on Gnomeregan, Kezan, or anything engineering. Because of that, it can be added in an Azshara expansion, a Legion expansion, a Dark Side of Azeroth expansion, or even a Sylvanas expansion. The Demon Hunter is harder to reconcile because it can ONLY be added in an expansion focusing on the Legion. Which is the only reason the DH had lost popularity, because people believed the Legion (and level 100) would be next expansion.

Demon Hunters can't be expanded because its archetype is too narrow, and most of its narrow archetype is owned by Warlocks.

So Warlocks use their demonic power for the sole purpose of vengeance against the legion? Stop BSing me, I've played a Warlock in BC and Wrath. Warlocks use demons solely for personal power. Demon Hunters do not do that, therefor you cannot say the Demon Hunter is just a pet-less Warlock.

And again, Warlock Death Coil wasn't the same ability as Death Knight Death Coil. Please stop bringing that up. It isn't the same thing as what's going on with DH's, Rogues, and Warlocks.

They are in fact the same ability. Before the DK was added, it was called Death Coil and was a ranged ability that delt damage and feared the target.

It was renamed to Mortal Coil after the DK was added. And if you still want to say "well the DK ability doesn't fear, and the Warlock ability doesn't heal" bear in mind that the Warlock ability WAS designed to be the DK ability, because in Vanilla Blizz had never intended to introduce a Hero Class.





You're fighting a losing battle here, because the popularity is still against the Tinkerer. Support for the Demon Hunter is large, and dissent is not united behind your Tinkerer. There's also the warden, the dragonsworn, time mage, battlemage, and even "give everyone a fourth class."

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I'd throw in Alchemist too. The other big difference, though, is that DH is only relevant to like two races. Pretty much all races bar Nelves and Tauren have some cool spin on technology- established NPCs and organisations to associate with the new class.

Like I'd instantly link Forsaken alchemists to the Royal Apothecary Society, and can easily see a history and place for Draenei articifers what with their spaceship and everything.

Human, Dwarf, NElf, Draenei, Worgen, Pandaren, Orc, Troll, Undead, BElf, Goblin.

Boom, 5 races per faction + Pandaren. The only one there that would need some lore stretching to fit is Goblin.

[ACES]

I don't think they'd have both Hunter and Demon Hunter classes. Maybe they'd give it a different name.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I don't think they'd have both Hunter and Demon Hunter classes. Maybe they'd give it a different name.

And why is that? I know we have to cater to the idiots that play this game, but if you can't tell the difference between a Demon Hunter with 2 weapons and a Hunter with a gun....

I have a word I could call you, but I'd get banned.

[Belisaurio]

Demon Hunters can be very different from classes that we have now. I mean:
-They can be the first only magic/melee users (not 1/2 like paladin/shaman).
-Can be the first melee/cloth wearing
-Can be the second melee/mail wearing.

This are just examples, but are some ideas to fill some gaps that we have. The only problem is Metamorfosis because is signature spell.
But they can do the same that they did to Death Knights from WC3 to WoW with the he's signature spell: Animate death. They transformed their first spell to resurrect 6 immortal allys to a resurrect one ally in ghoul's form.
They can do the same with Demon Hunters: Change Metamorfosis (WC3 skill) to something new.

[Teriz]

False. The Monk was never in WC3. Nor was Pandaria, the Mogu, Mantid, Hozen, Jinyu, or even Garrosh Hellscream.

Taken from WC3;

Hailing from the secretive Pandaren Empire, the mighty brewmasters travel the world in search of exotic ales and the finest brewed spirits. These affable warriors rarely seek out danger or trouble, preferring instead to spend their time concocting new and tasty beverages for any brave enough to imbibe them. However, if attacked, the laughing brewmasters bring all of their pandaren agility and ferocity to bear! They are peerless warriors and world class drinkers all in one!

http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...ewmaster.shtml

Obviously Blizzard expanded on the concept. However to say that Pandaria wasn't a part of WC3 lore is just stupid.


BTW Garrosh Hellscream is the son of Grom Hellscream, a pretty major character from WC3. Again, expanding on the story from WC3.

Nothing.

Stop and think why that is.

However, 4 abilities still do not make a class.

It forms the foundation of classes.

The WC3 DK was a mounted necromancer, they never had Blood or Frost specs, only Unholy. Not to mention the fact that in WoW the DK cannot fight while mounted.

Yeah, you seem to have ignored my post where I point out that the DK was a combination of the Undead heroes and units. However, its important to remember that the DK has all of his abilities from the WC3 hero class.

I've taken some flak for saying D3-style ranged spec instead of just a ranged caster, but I think the fact hunters have undisputed rights to ranged weapons warrants it.

Which Hunters? Demon Hunters or regular Hunters? You honestly don't see a problem with two different classes having the same name and doing essentially the same thing? How would a Demon Hunter physical ranged spec be different from a Hunter spec? I can't wait to hear that one.

The only reason it is a stronger option is because it is an entirely bland concept. We will never have an expansion focusing on Gnomeregan, Kezan, or anything engineering. Because of that, it can be added in an Azshara expansion, a Legion expansion, a Dark Side of Azeroth expansion, or even a Sylvanas expansion. The Demon Hunter is harder to reconcile because it can ONLY be added in an expansion focusing on the Legion. Which is the only reason the DH had lost popularity, because people believed the Legion (and level 100) would be next expansion.

Its a stronger concept because its a broader concept. Additionally it doesn't have the ludicrous amount of baggage the DH class concept has. Again, Blizzard had a prime opportunity to introduce the Demon Hunter class in TBC. There's a big reason why they didn't do it, and it has little to do with them not being able to handle a new class at that point in time.

So Warlocks use their demonic power for the sole purpose of vengeance against the legion? Stop BSing me, I've played a Warlock in BC and Wrath. Warlocks use demons solely for personal power. Demon Hunters do not do that, therefor you cannot say the Demon Hunter is just a pet-less Warlock.

So motivation is the only difference between a Warlock and a Demon Hunter? How do we translate that into gameplay?

They are in fact the same ability. Before the DK was added, it was called Death Coil and was a ranged ability that delt damage and feared the target.

It was renamed to Mortal Coil after the DK was added. And if you still want to say "well the DK ability doesn't fear, and the Warlock ability doesn't heal" bear in mind that the Warlock ability WAS designed to be the DK ability, because in Vanilla Blizz had never intended to introduce a Hero Class.

Yeah, all of that is incorrect. The WC3 DK hero ability doesn't contain a fear, doesn't heal you based on damage done, and isn't a 2 minute CD. Its a bolt of shadow energy that damages living targets and heals undead targets. It operates just like the DK class ability in WoW. It probably wasn't Blizzard's intention to create a DK class, but they still didn't give Warlocks the DK ability. Everytime you mention this, it just shows you have no clue what you're talking about.

You're fighting a losing battle here, because the popularity is still against the Tinkerer. Support for the Demon Hunter is large, and dissent is not united behind your Tinkerer. There's also the warden, the dragonsworn, time mage, battlemage, and even "give everyone a fourth class."

You're right, the support for the Demon Hunter is large. Which is why it's part of the Warlock class in an effort to increase its popularity.

Sorry.

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I don't think they'd have both Hunter and Demon Hunter classes. Maybe they'd give it a different name.

Yeah, part of the problem is that you can't name the Demon Hunter class anything else.

Welcome to the pitfalls of a narrow archetype.

[Wildmoon]

If DH is gonna make it in WoW then Blizzard has to do it right. The main theme of "demon within" has to be there and they could expand other things. Blizz shouldn't butcher the class by turning it into something it's not like some suggestions I have seen in this forum. Despite his insistence that DH would not make it, I still think Teriz's idea about DH is the best I have seen here.

[Sierra85]

it would need an all new playstyle with new mechanics to be viable. is it melee or ranged? alot of the new classes they have introduced have been melee. something tells me more of the same wont be what they are going for.

[Shefu]

So what if warlocks use demon form already? So many other classes share abilities or similar fighting system. In principle rogues/dps monks/enh shammies to the same thing: dual wield, melee dps. all healers ...basically heal. yeah they use different spells, but essentially they do the same thing thing. why couldn't 2 classes have a demon form? 1 would be of a spell caster, one of a melee dpser.

why do some of u base your theories just on what is currently in game, or how the lore is at the moment? all of that can be changed, new things can be written, just as they have been time and time again.

If they do a Burning Legio expansion, and they bring Illidan back as well, and add a new class over a DH I think it would be the biggest mistake they've ever made.