#boycottchina
Grey? The Forsaken planned betrayal from the very start.
Given past history? The Alliances goal should be nothing less than total and complete annihilation of the Forsaken.This does not mean they should be totally destroyed, as everyone as times of dishonourable conduct.
EJL
Read through the first 20-30 pages of this thread (at least), you'll see you're wrong.
What I would like is for Vol'jinn and Thrall to agree to sign a peace treaty with the alliance at the end of the raid which ends the war and returns the land (in terms of lore, not levelling) Garrosh took during the Cataclysm, mainly Ashenvale.
Hard to do when Alliance lost many of the major sources of pride it once had. Alliance wins Alterac Valley? TOO BAD, Horde wins in canon. Southshore -- birthplace of the Ashbringer -- comes out on top in its rivalry with Tarren Mill? NOPE, plagued for a million zillion years, so you can't have it back even if you retake Hillsbrad! Oh, but we have Pala-- SORRY, all notable Paladin NPCs in the game are neutral or Horde *insert obnoxious blue text teasing Turalyon's absence here*. Well, the 7th Legion is pretty bo-- HAHAHAHAHA, massacred by level 15 Forsaken. Well, at least we still have the moral high gr-- OOPS, Sunreaver incident...
Seriously, what does the Alliance have to be prideful about? And why should we even hope for new sources of pride? BEWAAAAAARE OF PRIIIIIIDE SAYETH THE PANDEMPEROR. Even the quest givers are setting us up for a huge let-down.
OMG 13:37 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Cleave unto me, and I shall grant to thee the blessing of eternal salvation."
And His disciples said unto Him, "Can we get Kings instead?"
Meaning that the Alliance get a story and result that treats them and their fans with the same degree of respect that Blizzard shows Horde stories.
Varian walking out of Org with nothing but the knowledge of moral superiority does neither.
I'm reminded of the quote from Night Watch:
The Republic of Treacle Mine Road lacked all the big, important buildings in the city, the ones that traditional rebels were supposed to take. It had no
government offices, no banks and very few temples. It was almost completely bereft of important civic architecture.
All it had was the unimportant stuff. It had the entire slaughterhouse district, and the butter market, and the cheese market. It had the tobacco factors and the candlemakers and most of the fruit and vegetable warehouses and the grain and flour stores. This meant that while the Republicans were being starved of important things like government, banking services and salvation, they were self-sufficient in terms of humdrum, everyday things like food and drink.
What use is a Moral Victory if the Horde wins all the land? What use is leaving the Horde alone if you know you are simply setting them up for the next war?
I don't want the Horde destroyed but giving the Alliance a meaningful victory, a valid result does not require the Horde to be destroyed or humiliated.
EJL
Last edited by Talen; 2013-07-25 at 10:53 PM.
be peaceful and patient!
no wait, now suddenly it is "fight each other to strengthen each other"
rest of the horde was quite fine with that as long as it didn't effect them
just because a fat drunk panda is spouting some bullshit doesn't make him right
the pandas have no idea about the history of the conflict and should just shut the fuck up
you do realize you are basically arguing "it's okay to murder alliance but only in this way" right?
or is the next question going to be "did they know there is going to be a battle or did they go with the intention of having a picnic?"
fact, trolls and taurens both committed troops on what they knew is going to be an attack on the alliance with the intention of destroying Theramore and every alliance personnel in it
and that's exactly what happened
"The Horde should not be rewarded for warmongering" does not equal "The Horde needs to be punished".
And BTW - the lesson of Pandaria is trying to teach is bunkus.
Why should the Alliance care about the same people who enabled Garroshes plans? Who carried them out? Who agreed with them?And thats all this is, a poor cry for vengeance. Even against horde members who want to end Garrosh's rule and stop the war too, but.. nah, ignore that fact, you don't care.
VJ and his crew rebelled for their own reasons. The Alliance owes them nothing.
EJL
Last edited by Talen; 2013-07-25 at 11:00 PM.
#boycottchina
everyone here seems like they forgot about the black prince that has had influence the whole expansion. We help the horde regain control because of what the black prince foresaw, a divided azeroth wont be able to stand against the upcoming threat (most likely the return of the burning legion but idk)
You know what, I'm just going to take all the alliance whining and crying about this debate.. and just enjoy it.
If its impossible to make any of you understand about balance and walking a mile in another persons shoes, and all you whine about is how you want absolute favoritism despite being unwilling to see the issues the other side too faces, or be content with what you actually have and just want more, it really is beyond discussing with you.
Funny how none of the lessons taught in pandaria washes here. Pride, how it makes you think what best, only with the worst of result, and being humble is better. But no, lets ignore such an adult subject as that and throw our toys.
forget it, you people don't ever learn from it.
#boycottchina
I know all about the Sha in Seige, thanks. All I "learned" from this is that LoreDev don't have any answers when it comes to giving the Alliance back a sense of faction pride, so they're going to try to spin it as a good thing, which in my estimation is a load of crap.
OMG 13:37 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Cleave unto me, and I shall grant to thee the blessing of eternal salvation."
And His disciples said unto Him, "Can we get Kings instead?"
Meh, Thrall being the central lore figure in Cataclysm isn't what made Cataclysm primarily Horde-based. What made Cataclysm a Horde-based expansion was Blizzard taking several promising Alliance story points and scrapping them/splicing them into Horde story points instead.
- It's pretty lame that half of the Worgen intro-story can't be seen by Worgen players.
- It's pretty lame that the Alliance Twilight Highlands intro got mangled into drunkenDwarfplaneride due to "time constraints."
- It's pretty lame that Blizzard didn't even bother to write in dialogue between the Alliance pc and the Red Dragon Flight that made sense, so we instead get the Horde-side "My people still don't trust you" speech even though it makes zero sense for the RDF to be hostile to Alliance players.
- It's pretty lame that Varian's scene with the Alliance traitor was cut and Thrall was forced into the scene instead.
- It's pretty lame that the Alliance loses Andorhal with absolutely no explanation as to why or how.
- It's pretty lame that Blizzard didn't bother to use phasing in the Swamp of Sorrows to show the Alliance victory there.
The main problem with Cataclysm isn't that it's a Horde-based expansion. The problem is that it was a rushed, scattered expansion, and the Horde focus is a symptom of the expansion's problems, not the problem itself. I don't mind at all that Thrall was such an important figure in Cata, but the other issues (like the examples I mentioned) do rub me the wrong way.
With MoP, it seems to me that a big reason that Alliance fans have a chip on their collective shoulders is patch 5.3. It reeks of the same rushed, "after-thought" sort of effort that was prevalent in the Alliance experience during Cataclysm, and Alliance players have every right to be a bit gun-shy. Now, I have faith that the Alliance won't come away from the siege "empty-handed," but we'll just have to see.
Last edited by Gelannerai; 2013-07-25 at 11:18 PM.
Again you're just ignoring every point raised and making sweeping statements and changing people's stance to suit your own opinion.
"walk a mile in another person's shoes".
I have levelled multiple Alliance and Horde characters through 1-60 and I can tell you, one faction has a considerably better walk through
Imagine there is a leader so corrupt that most of the people under their tyranny want them out of power. Now imagine your country rallies with those who want them out, and does what it takes to remove the foul leader and their supporters.
SO, you win that fight. Do you:
A) work with the native people you just fought side-by-side with, who now share a common positive experience that could evolve into peace and friendship, or
B) dump massive resources you may not be able to afford to control your new friends, making new hatreds, and maintaining an occupation in the capital and birthplace of the population of two major races.
I would shake hands with my new friends, help them recover where I'm asked to, and otherwise walk away. God forbid that the result of war ever be peace /sarcasm.
The difference is the 2 "countries" are already at war and the war apparently is not ending from the latest dev interviews I read.
Why would the alliance possibly let the horde keep the lands the alliance held until they were slaughtered?
That "peace" makes absolutely no sense for the alliance.
If the Alliance had made demands on the Horde, and gotten some zones back then we would be back to the Alliance favoured world of vanilla WoW. I thought Cataclysm made sure to balance things out for once, but all Alliance players see is Horde gaining stuff over them in Cataclysm so they want it back after their victory. It CANNOT happen, since Cataclysm merely balanced out the amount of zones each side has.
You'll get Dalaran in return for it though. Last I remember in WotLK was Alliance whining that they had to share their city with the Horde. Now Blizzard fixes this and Alliance players still whine. Please realize that the only way Dalaran could go back to the Alliance is if the Horde got something in return or the Alliance lost one of their other cities to balance things out. More and more do I see Alliance whining when they get what they asked for but they can't deal with the game needing a balance between the two factions.