Would it upset you if LFR went away? Why or why not?

[Repefe]

For me it's not about the difficulty. What is important is playing at your own schedule and reasonable time it takes to finish the runs. I want Blizz to look for ways to make LFR harder as long as these two requirements stay intact. Flex pugging could be an alternative, but what is the incentive to do it instead of LFR.

[Itisamuh]

But my problem with it is that encounters aren't designed to be challenging-yet-doable, they just fall over or contain mechanics that are frustrating rather than challenging.

I'd put a little more AI in it honestly, help give more challenge to those who want it but keep it simple for those who don't/can't. I'm in favor of accessibility, but not a slot-machine game.

You're all going to have fun with the 3rd boss in SoO on LFR.

Fair enough, and I do think they will eventually have multiple difficulty levels for LFR to address that. But the accessibility must remain.

[Deleted]

It would upset me because there I can afk for legendaries and epics.

[Maniac2]

challenge is the reason of every game.......
i want you to name me 1 game that dosnt have challenge at all

Maybe challenge is reason for you, but not for everyone. Simple easy entertainment is enough for many people. You know, we are not the same.
Also, same day you might change your view and you wont need challenge anymore (speaking from my own experience).

[jbombard]

No, assuming they would replace it with another form of content for all the people doing LFR to do for end game progression.(because if they didn't there would be massive sub loss). That would end up meaning a greater variety of content in the game, and hopefully that content would actually be designed for the players who were meant to do it instead of copy pasted, and would hopefully be more enjoyable. If the question is simply meant to mean no LFR and nothing to replace it, then who the hell would want less content.

[Condemner]

Voted yes, but not because i would be upset, but I would be dissapointed. I don't see any meaning why they should remove it. It's additional content to content that was already in the game and by no means any replacement at all.

[endersblade]

As someone who doesn't raid, not even LFR, I wouldn't really care personally. However, I fully understand its TRUE intention (so that 'casuals' (gods I hate that word) can see the end-game content without being in a raiding guild) and I support it completely. If I ever bothered to try raiding, I'd most likely just stick to LFR. I prefer 5-mans, which are randomly tossed together just like LFR is, so I'd feel more at home in that environment than joining a raiding guild who actually gave a shit. I would wager that most of the people who do LFR don't do it for the challenge, as all I hear are people complaining how easy it is. I for one would do it just to see the final story ending if I actually cared anymore. But it's basically just a way for people who aren't serious raiders to get 'end game' gear without having to take the step into serious raiding, which is perfectly acceptable.

Now WHY legit raiders hate LFR is well beyond me. They sit up there, all high and mighty in their level 9,000 epics and complain that people are getting epics too. Why? In what way at all does that affect you? Their gear is purple, call the police! Your gear's stats far outweigh what they get in LFR. They are advancing their character's gear progression, and so are you. They choose to do it the 'easy' way, and you choose to do it the hard way, and both of you get gear appropriate for how much effort you put forth. You also get that shiny green title of 'heroic' on your gear, whereas LFR people get 'Raid Finder' on theirs. If you don't like LFR, then simply don't do it, end of story.

[LaReine]

Should I go back to playing LFR's when I return to WoW, I might be upset about them going away. I don't feel like jumping into guild Raids, so. . .those are at least one way in. I don't play much anymore, if at all, lol. Cause I'm currently not a sub.

[Unalorian]

Would I be upset? No

Would I keep paying a subscription? No

Would Blizzard then be upset for loosing another paying customer after removing LFR? I guess they would.

[Pancaspe]

Yes, I'd be disappointed. Why would I want less content?

Amen. I love running LFR. It gives me a chance to see the fight from another class perspective. Often it is totally different.

[Maniac2]

If you're using it to gear up, power up your character, etc, you should have to put in some effort. The current LFR does not offer any effort or challenge. It's just show up, don't be a complete moron, and get rewarded.

The Blues themselves have said that people now sub for a month, see the content, then quit until the next patch.

Tell that to people who were wiping on Horridon for weeks/months and than just stopped trying and unsubbing, their guilds disband and alike. "Some effort" didnt get them anywhere.
True, Blues said that and nothing wrong with that. Why being subbed and play 24/7, when we can do some other stuff and not miss anything in game at the same time?

[Raelbo]

What qualifies me to understand the relationship? The same thing that doesn't make my statement not a theory.

Loosely translated as: "I am right because I know I am right". Which is to all intents and purposes a useless and pointless statement that fails epically to advance your argument in any way whatsoever. It does, however serve to highlight your lack of ability to create a logical argument.

I talk to people. Having been raid lead in one of the top 3 guilds on my server for 7 out of 8 years, I have had a lot of contact to people from my server over the years. Especially people in my guild that have left the game since. I have asked them, and they explained to me why they left. I'm not as much making an argument as an observation. And you may ignore me, but that doesn't make the people wrong that I asked why they left.

And my anecdotal "evidence" which is equally valid to yours has led me to a different conclusion. The fact that you aren't even prepared to acknowledge the weakness of your theory is a strong indicator that you haven't critically assessed your argument, which, in short, is why it is so weak.

[Slant]

Loosely translated as: "I am right because I know I am right". Which is to all intents and purposes a useless and pointless statement that fails epically to advance your argument in any way whatsoever. It does, however serve to highlight your lack of ability to create a logical argument.



And my anecdotal "evidence" which is equally valid to yours has led me to a different conclusion. The fact that you aren't even prepared to acknowledge the weakness of your theory is a strong indicator that you haven't critically assessed your argument, which, in short, is why it is so weak.

You seem to argue for the arguments sake. This is not a debate club. This is the real world. I'm not here to score points. I'm not even here to be right, so I don't really care if you think "I am right, because I know I am right". Unless I walk up to Ghostcrawler, put a gun to his head and tell him "Yo, spill the truth man" you will not accept anything as proof and try to bait me into an emotional response. You're failing and I'm discontinuing to react to your "No, YOU'RE wrong!" tactics. It's a waste of my time. Have a great day.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh Oh can i answer pick me? Is the answer "the guy on forums who insists that content and whole game systems be removed at the expense of everybody else's fun so that he or she can feel special?". You people have far larger entitlement issues. The guy who wants loot for "nothing" just wants the loot. YOU want the whole games design catered to YOU and your merry band of brothers at the expense of everybody else. That's far worse. You want the entire meta game catered to you and you want to subject everybody else to it based on well nothing as far as I can tell.

Um... So... the guy who wants loot for nothing. That happens just like that? Nobody has to change game design for him? I mean. Really, you're saying I want game design to adapt to my wishes but when it happened in the past couple of years, and they were dramatic design choices, including downtuning bosses so people like you can actually kill shit, you're going to ignore that and pretend that is the natural order of things and has always been like that? How can you even ask me a silly question like that... we never wanted the whole game design to revolve around us. We just wanted a tiny bit of temporary exclusivity. Not even permanent.

But no, it's not enough that you guys eventually get to see everything. You have to see it when it's "current" content. God knows why, you don't raid in progression guilds that compete with each other for server first titles. Why DO you have to see it when it's current anyway? There is no point whatsoever really, is there. Explain to me, why you have to have it when it's current content, why isn't it enough to see it one expansion after it was released. or one patch?

- - - Updated - - -

Tell that to people who were wiping on Horridon for weeks/months and than just stopped trying and unsubbing, their guilds disband and alike. "Some effort" didnt get them anywhere.
True, Blues said that and nothing wrong with that. Why being subbed and play 24/7, when we can do some other stuff and not miss anything in game at the same time?

You know what the problem was and always is with WoW? People doing something wrong, being stubborn about it and then throwing tantrums and blaming everything else but them. Horridon is the perfect example for people refusing to sit down, read the tactic 5 mins, do the tactic and then looting the boss. Because there is nothing difficult about him. It's one giant idiot check and many people are failing it. I love Horridon.

The scary thing is that the tantrum throwing people are winning everytime they do that, because Blizzard is catering to them almost exclusively now. I'm waiting for the day they stop supporting heroic content in favour of... whatever they think up until then. "Sorry, you're just a minority, we cannot support doing content for 5% of the game population anymore..." Because that is in essence all you've guys said in this thread. Wonder what will happen to the game if you win and us arrogant elitist raiders are gone from the game.

[Raelbo]

You seem to argue for the arguments sake.

Why would you assume my motives for engaging in this discussion are any less noble than your own?

This is not a debate club.

Actually it is. We are debating on a forum. That's what it's there for.

I don't really care if you think "I am right, because I know I am right".

Except I don't think that....You think you are right because of your own cognitive bias. I think I am right because my theory aligns a lot better with the thinking of the experts.

Unless I walk up to Ghostcrawler, put a gun to his head and tell him "Yo, spill the truth man" you will not accept anything as proof

So in other words you believe Ghostcrawler is simply lying then? I mean the blues have given us loads of feedback over the years about their thinking. Furthermore, the fact that they are insisting on pursuing LFR is, in and of itself quite telling.

You're failing and I'm discontinuing to react to your "No, YOU'RE wrong!" tactics.

/facepalm.

Dude, you were the one who adopted the "No, you're wrong!" tactic. In fact you used it several times. At least I bothered to try and point you to why your argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But I guess if you aren't going to even try to understand what I am writing, maybe it is me who is wasting my time...

[Slant]

Why would you assume my motives for engaging in this discussion are any less noble than your own?

Except I don't think that....You think you are right because of your own cognitive bias. I think I am right because my theory aligns a lot better with the thinking of the experts.

So in other words you believe Ghostcrawler is simply lying then? I mean the blues have given us loads of feedback over the years about their thinking. Furthermore, the fact that they are insisting on pursuing LFR is, in and of itself quite telling.

/facepalm.

Dude, you were the one who adopted the "No, you're wrong!" tactic. In fact you used it several times. At least I bothered to try and point you to why your argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But I guess if you aren't going to even try to understand what I am writing, maybe it is me who is wasting my time...

First, I don't think I am "right" at all. I've never made right/wrong statements other than that people I've talked to leave the game because they are directly (seen all content, bored argument) or indirectly (people leave the game because they saw everything, bored, therefore the server dries out which makes it less fun to play) influenced by LFR raids. You can't even argue with me about it, so why pursue that? I've not make a general statement about the whole WoW population, even if I implied it, which is legitimate and you can't really come up to me and say "well, you're wrong!" Wrong about what? Care to prove me by giving me an interview of every person ever leaving the game? Otherwise it's just baiting me into an emotional response.

You may not see the sense in my arguments, but that doesn't make them any less valid. Insulting my intelligence won't get you any further, either. It'll just devalue your own post, because that is another cheap shot to rile me up.

And lastly, yes, I have read blue responses. But they are not the gospel. Your reasoning is based on the fact that blues are never wrong and it's the only gospel we can argue by. Well, chum, I've been saying from the first posts on that I think Blizzard is wrong. So I'm not likely to take your blue posts into credit, am I? Why even mention them to me? I think Blizzard is milking the shit out of WoW and couldn't care less about what's good for the game. Heck, for all I know they might just bleed the game dry because eventually they want us to jump ship to Titan anyway. Who's to say whatever they say in public is the truth?

"You will never defeat Arthas" - "We will never introduce additional difficulty modes for content" - "bring the player, not the class"

Do you really want me to start really thinking about how many posts they made that were just wrong or outright lies (or at least so dumb that they should've known they're untrue)?

And now we're not even talking about the topic anymore, I'm just defending myself against someone who's not said a thing about the topic for the past couple of posts. Nah, I'm done with you. HF, you win.

[Raelbo]

we never wanted the whole game design to revolve around us. We just wanted a tiny bit of temporary exclusivity. Not even permanent.

Listen up very carefully: You have exclusivity. People doing LFR does not change that.

But no, it's not enough that you guys eventually get to see everything. You have to see it when it's "current" content. God knows why, you don't raid in progression guilds that compete with each other for server first titles.

Have you even tried to emapathise with us lesser mortals?

Why DO you have to see it when it's current anyway? There is no point whatsoever really, is there. Explain to me, why you have to have it when it's current content, why isn't it enough to see it one expansion after it was released. or one patch?

Why do people want to wear the latest trends and fashions instead of prefering last years fashions? Why do people queue to see movies at the premiere instead of waiting for it to come out on blu-ray? Why do people want the latest smartphone, car, games, etc?

It's human nature. If you don't understand that, it's ok, but it is real.

You know what the problem was and always is with WoW? People doing something wrong, being stubborn about it and then throwing tantrums and blaming everything else but them.

Nope, that is a not a problem with WoW. It's a reality of life. The problem is the manner in which certain people deal with this reality. The fact is that if someone is not having fun in WoW, that is a problem and it needs to be fixed. WoW is a GAME. First and foremost it is about having FUN. Different people have different ideas of what constitute fun, and you cannot force or expect everyone else to have fun the way you do.

All that you can do is ask that things you find fun are included in the game. Demanding that the things you don't find fun are removed from the game when:

a) others are having fun doing it and
b) it doesn't actually affect you

is neither rational nor reasonable.

Horridon is the perfect example for people refusing to sit down, read the tactic 5 mins, do the tactic and then looting the boss. Because there is nothing difficult about him. It's one giant idiot check and many people are failing it. I love Horridon.

Ok, so you're awesome at the game. I get it. Good for you! Now, news just in: If you are in the top 0.5% of players, then that doesn't mean the other 99.5% are all idiots for exactly the same reason that your failure to win Wimbledon does not make you an idiot.

The scary thing is that the tantrum throwing people are winning everytime they do that, because Blizzard is catering to them almost exclusively now.

First off: If people are not having fun doing something, and they make this known, it doesn't mean they are throwing a tantrum. A tantrum is more akin to your behaviour regarding LFR.

Secondly, making content to cater for the people playing this game is not a bad thing. At the end of the day if people are having fun as a result, then it is totally justified.

I'm waiting for the day they stop supporting heroic content

And what indications are there exactly that they have any intention of doing so? In fact they are introducing a new easier raid setting (Flex) so that they can keep heroics as brutally hard as they are to keep the small minority who enjoy them happy.

"Sorry, you're just a minority, we cannot support doing content for 5% of the game population anymore..." Because that is in essence all you've guys said in this thread.

The fact is they can't put 25/50/75% of their resources into content enjoyed by 5% of the game population. It just doesn't make economic sense. The point you seemed to miss, and this is why LFR is actually good for you, is that most of the effort used to create your content (heroic raids) can be reused to create content (LFR) for a significant percentage of the game population. Without LFR, heroic raids simply would not be viable.

So I suggest you stop looking at LFR as if it is enemy. Your paranoia in this regard is not only unfounded, but it actually puts your content at higher risk, because if you actually succeeded at getting LFR removed, you would be inadvertently killing your own content.

Wonder what will happen to the game if you win and us arrogant elitist raiders are gone from the game.

Personally I am in favour of a nett sum win. ie - we ALL win. You seem to have the belief that it's "us vs them" when it reality it's not.

I WANT Blizzard to keep on giving you the content you want. Please stop demanding that they take away the content other people want. Thank you.

[Slant]

I WANT Blizzard to keep on giving you the content you want. Please stop demanding that they take away the content other people want. Thank you.

I liked your post, it had a lot of valid points. I'm again pressed for time, so I'll sum up my response. I'm not taking away content from anyone. But I am against killing the social aspect of this game. I'm sure you have read my posts from yesterday, so I'll not bore you again with my reasoning. And they don't even kill the social aspect by simplifying things, they're adding more and more stacks on top of the current variety. Back in the day, you could raid or not. Two options. People used to take longer or they were quick about it, but everyone had the same content. That means some people didn't get to see Naxx until the next expansion. But they did have the opportunity to see it then. For some reason, however, people were herded into thinking they need to run after the latest content instantly before seeing everything, alright.

Now, forward a bit and you'll see Wrath... 10m normal/heroic, 25m normal/heroic. Which do you pick, since you only have limited free time if you've got a job/college? Already the once common group of raiders is splitting up, making each target group a quarter of what it was (I'm SUPER SIMPLIFYING for the sake of argument).

Forward a bit more to join us in our time. We now have 10m normal/heroic, 25m normal/heroic and LFR. Now we're five groups, again making each group a little tinier, or increasing the choice for others. I'm aware that you can do LFR on top of the others, but let's say you only have time for one stint per week, which is the case for many many people.

Now, let's add Flexraid to that. We have already 5 exlusive sizes and LFR on top. What's next? Because Flexraid ain't gonna be enough. Everytime you get concessions, I still hear people complaining. And yes, even on MMO-C I've actually read a thread by a dude SERIOUSLY asking for heroic gear when he does his solo content. I mean, when is it enough? Are you happy with LFR and Flexraids? Will that be it?

I doubt it. And all the time, people get split up into smaller subgroups, making the whole system bloated, ugly, complicated and removing more and more social aspects from the game. With Flexraids you don't even need to be mindful of your groupmates. If they piss you off, just kick them, it won't affect your raid much. And that is going to happen, and you'll have the shitstorms on MMO-C once that starts. If you thought progression raids were harsh, just wait until casuals have to fear no consequence for kicking people they don't like.

[Deleted]

Yes. LFR is an easy way to gear alts/offspec.

[Maniac2]

But no, it's not enough that you guys eventually get to see everything. You have to see it when it's "current" content. God knows why, you don't raid in progression guilds that compete with each other for server first titles. Why DO you have to see it when it's current anyway? There is no point whatsoever really, is there. Explain to me, why you have to have it when it's current content, why isn't it enough to see it one expansion after it was released. or one patch?

I can put the same question to you.
Why wouldnt we see content while its current? Why are you so different than us, better than us? What would you gain by us seeing it later? I realy cant see it. During the time I was heroic raider, me and my guild never cared what others are doing, we minded our own business and we never tried to ruin someone elses fun. Why you do it is beyond me.

You in fact want to 99% of playerbase to unsubscribe for 2 years to see next expac raid content while you would be doing 6th expansion. You cant be serious. Get yourself checked.

- - - Updated - - -

Listen up very carefully: You have exclusivity. People doing LFR does not change that.



Have you even tried to emapathise with us lesser mortals?



Why do people want to wear the latest trends and fashions instead of prefering last years fashions? Why do people queue to see movies at the premiere instead of waiting for it to come out on blu-ray? Why do people want the latest smartphone, car, games, etc?

It's human nature. If you don't understand that, it's ok, but it is real.



Nope, that is a not a problem with WoW. It's a reality of life. The problem is the manner in which certain people deal with this reality. The fact is that if someone is not having fun in WoW, that is a problem and it needs to be fixed. WoW is a GAME. First and foremost it is about having FUN. Different people have different ideas of what constitute fun, and you cannot force or expect everyone else to have fun the way you do.

All that you can do is ask that things you find fun are included in the game. Demanding that the things you don't find fun are removed from the game when:

a) others are having fun doing it and
b) it doesn't actually affect you

is neither rational nor reasonable.



Ok, so you're awesome at the game. I get it. Good for you! Now, news just in: If you are in the top 0.5% of players, then that doesn't mean the other 99.5% are all idiots for exactly the same reason that your failure to win Wimbledon does not make you an idiot.



First off: If people are not having fun doing something, and they make this known, it doesn't mean they are throwing a tantrum. A tantrum is more akin to your behaviour regarding LFR.

Secondly, making content to cater for the people playing this game is not a bad thing. At the end of the day if people are having fun as a result, then it is totally justified.



And what indications are there exactly that they have any intention of doing so? In fact they are introducing a new easier raid setting (Flex) so that they can keep heroics as brutally hard as they are to keep the small minority who enjoy them happy.



The fact is they can't put 25/50/75% of their resources into content enjoyed by 5% of the game population. It just doesn't make economic sense. The point you seemed to miss, and this is why LFR is actually good for you, is that most of the effort used to create your content (heroic raids) can be reused to create content (LFR) for a significant percentage of the game population. Without LFR, heroic raids simply would not be viable.

So I suggest you stop looking at LFR as if it is enemy. Your paranoia in this regard is not only unfounded, but it actually puts your content at higher risk, because if you actually succeeded at getting LFR removed, you would be inadvertently killing your own content.



Personally I am in favour of a nett sum win. ie - we ALL win. You seem to have the belief that it's "us vs them" when it reality it's not.

I WANT Blizzard to keep on giving you the content you want. Please stop demanding that they take away the content other people want. Thank you.

Slant, this guy summed this up really good. If you cant comprehend it, you just lack common sense.

[Osmeric]

I don't expect Blizzard to admit their experiment didn't work out as they wish it had, though. That's why we probably won't see the removal of LFR.

I want you to imagine what the tail end of Cataclysm would have been like had they not switched gears and introduced LFR. Sub declines would have been horrific.

I think MoP has serious problems, but the inclusion of LFR isn't one of them. The deemphasis of heroic 5 mans; the gap between LFR and normal; the increased grindiness; those were all problems. But LFR SAVED the game in 4.3. I very much doubt Blizzard views it as a failure.