[Mage] What went wrong in the Last beta?

[Deleted]

I remember spending a good two hours writing up a post about how level 90 talents were promoting bad play, comparing time spent buffed vs rebuffing.
I basically got laughed at with a simple "mages are fine, you just don't like change".
This works very discouraging and puts off alot of people from giving their input, unless it agrees with the popular opinion at the time.

[Orrin]

Want to know why Blizzard listens to him over someone with more experience? He uses math. Lots and lots of math. If you want to replace him, then you have to do what he does, because what he does is what Blizzard wants to see. To programmers, numbers mean much more than opinion or how things ultimately "feel".

My regard towards level 90 talents has nothing to do with math. It's more about disgust feelings that I have while using one of them, because math behind original implementation was good - go ask Lhivera, he would like to talk with you about it. So I don't think that mathy feedback is the best one and only valid one

[Swizzle]

My regard towards level 90 talents has nothing to do with math. It's more about disgust feelings that I have while using one of them, because math behind original implementation was good - go ask Lhivera, he would like to talk with you about it. So I don't think that mathy feedback is the best one and only valid one

Except...you can't take anything away from an argument like that. WoW has what? 8 million players now? There were 11 million at the start of MoP iirc, so anything regarding how something "feels" will often get ignored by devs since your experience will vary greatly from the vast majority of players. If you can show how these talents negatively impact gameplay through math, simulations, and concrete examples, then you have a better shot at being listened to.

[Mastamage]

Except when SimC and TC-Lite are wrong and continue to be throughout an expansion.

[Deleted]

I remember spending a good two hours writing up a post about how level 90 talents were promoting bad play, comparing time spent buffed vs rebuffing.
I basically got laughed at with a simple "mages are fine, you just don't like change".
This works very discouraging and puts off alot of people from giving their input, unless it agrees with the popular opinion at the time.

+1 totally agree

[Swizzle]

Except when SimC and TC-Lite are wrong and continue to be throughout an expansion.

You don't need either to run a simulation. You used to go to Netherstorm and beat up on Dr. Boom for a while to test abilities functionality and scaling, and you can do the same thing now with target dummies. You have to be able to perform simple algebraic equations though, and that puts a lot of people off.

[Deleted]

I only re-rolled Mage post-5.0, so for me everything came as-is and I just had to take it as it was;

Having said that, in concept the Mage 90 talents were decent.
Ultimately, the thing that went wrong was the way they were implemented; they simply created too many QoL issues and exacerbated already-present issues within the Mage class itself. For example; RoP has been the go-to for Arcane this entire expansion. So, suddenly you have a spec which is already difficult to manage movement with, and you've now limited it even further.

Had Blizzard perhaps thought a bit more about the QoL issues about Mage instead of the Maths side (after all, QoL =! Maths) I don't think there would have been as much uproar.

Honestly, though, so long as the 90 talents get a rework and the 100 talents get tweaked (IMO un-original and hardly "fun" at base, could change), I'll be relatively happy.

[LocNess]

Blizzard should never just look at the math and say "it looks fine to me". This is a game, not a math class and if a vast majority (which was extremely obvious on the forums) have distaste to strong hatred for the 90 talents, Blizzard should get their shit straight and stop annoying 1/11th of its population. Yeah we still pay to play so they couldn't care less, it can't be an argument though that just because the math looks ok doesnt mean the talents are ok.

[Swizzle]

Blizzard should never just look at the math and say "it looks fine to me". This is a game, not a math class and if a vast majority (which was extremely obvious on the forums) have distaste to strong hatred for the 90 talents, Blizzard should get their shit straight and stop annoying 1/11th of its population. Yeah we still pay to play so they couldn't care less, it can't be an argument though that just because the math looks ok doesnt mean the talents are ok.

They DON'T just look at the math, but it IS the thing that matters the most. When your game is based around hundreds of calculations all interplaying with one another to make pixels float pretty...then you better believe that the core math is what is of value. Further, math can be verified, reproduced, and tested; feelings cannot. Let me demonstrate why simply: I only PvP, therefore I don't care how Invocation and Rune of Power feel since I don't use them since Incanter's Ward is perfectly fine in PvP. Feelings are personal, and even though it is always easy to find a vocal group of people who agree with you on a forum, it doesn't make it the right course of action for a game dev to make.

They didn't change the Frost Mastery for QoL issues, they changed it so they could balance the god damned math in two aspects of the game. Once they get that down, they look into fixing missile speed, animations, responsiveness, etc.; simple stuff, no?

There was one and only one proper argument made in the MoP beta against the level 90 talents, and that was that we were balanced around 90%+ uptime on the buffs in order to compete, when the math behind that was simply impossible when put into actual practice. If more of the community jumped on that instead of bitching how things felt, you're damn right they would have been changed sooner than they were.

[Mastamage]

Lots of bitching occurred during the Beta on level 90 talents as well as Alter Time. When you have Lhivera defending them constantly it got nothing done. I agree 100% with Akraen that Lhiv should've had no opinion in Heroic raiding this expansion. When you see him and GC "fist-bumping" like bros on Twitter, it's pretty unnerving. He went along with it with no problems when those problems certainly existed.

[LocNess]

They DON'T just look at the math, but it IS the thing that matters the most. When your game is based around hundreds of calculations all interplaying with one another to make pixels float pretty...then you better believe that the core math is what is of value. Further, math can be verified, reproduced, and tested; feelings cannot. Let me demonstrate why simply: I only PvP, therefore I don't care how Invocation and Rune of Power feel since I don't use them since Incanter's Ward is perfectly fine in PvP. Feelings are personal, and even though it is always easy to find a vocal group of people who agree with you on a forum, it doesn't make it the right course of action for a game dev to make.

They didn't change the Frost Mastery for QoL issues, they changed it so they could balance the god damned math in two aspects of the game. Once they get that down, they look into fixing missile speed, animations, responsiveness, etc.; simple stuff, no?

There was one and only one proper argument made in the MoP beta against the level 90 talents, and that was that we were balanced around 90%+ uptime on the buffs in order to compete, when the math behind that was simply impossible when put into actual practice. If more of the community jumped on that instead of bitching how things felt, you're damn right they would have been changed sooner than they were.

It shouldn't matter how good the math is to support something, when being forced to use a talent for optimal dps is just flat out distracting from the fun of the game, it needs to be dealt with. This isn't a hardcore japanese MMORPG, this is a game oriented toward casuals and the 90 talents are the opposite of that design. And, it still is a pain in the ass to deal with even if you are a good enough player to push 90% + uptime, especially if you lose 2 seconds or more on proc times or such which is just flat dps loss. Blizzard fucked up, they should have listened and now have an entire class that is bitter towards them overall. Yeah, they probably don't care at all as long as we keep playing, but it still shouldn't be supported at all because "the math seems fine".

[Deleted]

Having said that, in concept the Mage 90 talents were decent.

Hm... I don't agree... Blizzards design towards classes was in Mop to get away from mana as a resource.... only for heals mana is still a resource....
See Hunters Fokus pre MOP
See Warlocks Shards or what so ever... never played it...

And ultimately mage went from mana as a resource to the (I call it "Minigame" in keeping up lvl 90 talents... mana is not a matter but the dmg buff.... it IS a Minigame...
From an arcane mage PoV since WotLK; I loved the ability to extend the burst phase with more int and so more mana.... now in MOP arcane was (theoretically) the same throu out the expansion... (yes the 6 to 4 stacks change and scorch weaving....) but the way to play... the maximum of AB at 4 stacks remained the same... the actual way you played changed back then....

Having said this.... It really doesnt matter if we have 300k mana or 1k or even 100 mana as energy like a rogue... all spells cost %of mana, aman regen is %... it is all just cosmetical but blizz isnt curageous enough to show this design intet openly....

edit: I have to admit I like the Invocer arcan in the beta.... but it soon showed it is not dps optimal... the excitement of the lvl90 talents is nice at first.. but vanishes soon. It is not a fun to play gain, but a "keep it up or stand in rune" or you won't be competitive... a pain in the.... - and exactily this is what went wrong in the beta - I guess just top mages saw this and the broad mass of players liked it...

[voltaa]

Hm... I don't agree... Blizzards design towards classes was in Mop to get away from mana as a resource....

I think what he is getting at was that the concept of more damage through good planning, not the mana management part of it. Rune was all about good placement, IW was about timing, Evo was all about....something I'm sure.

I agree that the concepts were great, it was just not the right time or place for them to happen.

[Swizzle]

It shouldn't matter how good the math is to support something, when being forced to use a talent for optimal dps is just flat out distracting from the fun of the game, it needs to be dealt with.

You are really missing the point of feedback, beta, game development. You CANNOT ignore the main component of the game, the numbers will be what everything defaults to above all else because numbers are NOT subjective. As noted, I couldn't care less how 66.66% of the level 90 talents feel since the one I use is fine. If I went ahead with this argument style which you seem to be in favor of, I'm positive I could find a vocal minority that agree with me, then they can snowball into people from other classes who don't want Mages to be too strong. When you argue with how things feel, you will NOT be listened to by Blizzard. Fuck, they even state so themselves over and over.

If you want to keep thinking the way you seem to be stuck in, then nothing will change and we'll always be in shit. If you want to change things, then approach them like a math nerd, like a game dev, and be god damn useful to the community.

[LocNess]

You are really missing the point of feedback, beta, game development. You CANNOT ignore the main component of the game, the numbers will be what everything defaults to above all else because numbers are NOT subjective. As noted, I couldn't care less how 66.66% of the level 90 talents feel since the one I use is fine. If I went ahead with this argument style which you seem to be in favor of, I'm positive I could find a vocal minority that agree with me, then they can snowball into people from other classes who don't want Mages to be too strong. When you argue with how things feel, you will NOT be listened to by Blizzard. Fuck, they even state so themselves over and over.

If you want to keep thinking the way you seem to be stuck in, then nothing will change and we'll always be in shit..

The feedback has been overwhelming negative for the expansion. They are a business making a game, I can guarantee they have lost some subscription fees because Mages have quit due to their horrible experience this expansion. It does not matter at all if the class makes sense numbers wise, if it is unfun to play people will quit the class and even the game until it is fixed. It has happened this expansion, and will happen next if nothing is changed. Blizzard is shooting themselves in the foot by only listening to Lhivera and you cannot deny they lost money for their poor Mage decisions overall, which is exactly why the talents are being looked at for this beta.

If you want to change things, then approach them like a math nerd, like a game dev, and be god damn useful to the community.

And really? While I don't have the time and resources to convey the math of every single point I make, I make tons of suggestions everywhere in these forums and am not just spewing nonsense. Go look through half my posts and say I am not being helpful. While my stuff isn't being used at all, or even glanced at any sort of progression discussion is good for a class, and I synthesize comments for that.

[Deleted]

-snip-

Actually, Blizzard has never outright stated that their design towards classes in general was to get away from Mana as a resource; Hunters just didn't fit the mana bill and Warlocks got an entire re-work for the expansion.

They've stated that they'd like to move more classes towards the "two-resource" system which you currently see a few classes have (Paladins, Shadow Priests, Warlocks, Rogues, Feral Druids, Monks), but some classes also don't fit that bill, and it can also be argued Mages semi-had that this expansion with Arcane Charges.

I, for one, would be disappointed if they moved Mages FAR away from Mana, after all "Mana" is something that seems incredibly core to a Mage in lore, not just in gameplay. Would I like a secondary resource also? Yes, but that's not the point I'm making.

The point I was making (as Voltaa correctly states) is that the initial thought behind the 90 talents was a good one; after all, as I've stated I like having to maintain more debuffs/buffs as I feel it adds complexity and it rewards good forward-thinking and planning, which is what you need in a HC Raider (this is coming from a HC Raider PoV). HOWEVER, they were clunky and un-polished, and this is where the issues came in.

[mrgreenthump]

I, for one, would be disappointed if they moved Mages FAR away from Mana, after all "Mana" is something that seems incredibly core to a Mage in lore, not just in gameplay. Would I like a secondary resource also? Yes, but that's not the point I'm making.

GC did say that Fire and Frost shouldn't "care" about mana. That doesn't mean that they are still going with that, but I would be very surprised if we would have to go to great lenghts with maintaining mana next expansion as Fire/Frost.

[voltaa]

Well frost and fire really didn't care about mana this expac either, the only reason mana could sometimes be an issue for mostly frost was to keep invo arcane balanced. They did a decent job of making mana a non issue imo

[Deleted]

I never liked the argument that because you have to maintain our lvl 90 talents they were bad or not fun. Keeping buffs/debuffs up is a core mechanic in many classes. Or that the problem was that we were balanced around a 99% uptime. Other classes are balanced around that as well.

The underlying problem that created those issues was the way we kept them up. Invocation and RoP in their initial form were just immensly vulnerable to the ever growing amount of raid mechanics. And even with perfect play you couldn't guarantee the 99% uptime we were "balanced" around. And this inability, this beeing at the mercy of some rng god, was what caused those issues above and what made the lvl 90 talents so immensly frustrating to play with in an raid enviroment.

With all that said, blizzard did eventually adjust them to there current form. And yes, those changes should have been made in the beta and it would have been a much more enjoyable expansion for me and i guess for most other mages too. And to be honest, i can live with them in their current form. They still have the potential to be the cause for frustration with the ever growing amount of raid mechanics that blizzard has to throw at us to keep raiding challenging.

And i am uneasy until we see the rework / redesign of the lvl90 tier from the beta. The talents in their current form might just be the lesser of two evil.

[Orrin]

I never liked the argument that because you have to maintain our lvl 90 talents they were bad or not fun. Keeping buffs/debuffs up is a core mechanic in many classes. Or that the problem was that we were balanced around a 99% uptime. Other classes are balanced around that as well.

First of all, you can write only about your expirience and if your expirience that level 90 talents are ok, it's all right. Second, I don't think an argument 'other classes have version of that mechanic so we should have too, but much more complicated and restricting' works very well for me