SoO Nerfs, infuriating.

[Paarthurnax]

Lets not over react. They are fairly minor changes (which is good), and they target only some of the trouble fights in both 10 and 25 man. (seigecrafter for 10 man and klaxxi for 25 man are the major walls IMO). It's also been quite a while since SoO launched and eventually nerfs happen, this should be expected. Killing bosses after nerfs shouldn't diminish your enjoyment of the game or the kill itself. The idea is you did what you could with what you had and no one can take that away from you.

[Deleted]

I'm continuously bothered how letting threads like this run free is allowed for so long on these forums. Instead of trying to conceal baseless whining by whatever-guild-issues-you-may-or-may-not-have and everyone else surely doesn't have you should stop being so serious and wait for wod like everyone else. It's not like you are racing anyone anymore.

It's not about a race. It's about beating the challenge laid out before me and my guild, yet now it's been lessened.

[Raeln]

You know accepting something bad because it's a tradition is seriously wrong, right?

You don't have to accept it.

WoW is a video game - there is absolutely nothing you are forced to accept or endure with it or in it.

[Miko]

Nope. The line is 6.0, or, it should be. Can't get to garrosh when WoD comes out? Then you're not good enough, which is fine. But let people try. It's obviously a money thing, they don't want people quitting, which is sad that they have to do that. (I know they are a company that needs to make money) Would be good if they cared about not holding everyone's hands instead of saving the subs of 'bad' players.

The thing is that's what they are saying and doing now. Still haven't beat Garrosh, its been 4 months your'e not good enough. With item upgrades and this long to take down these bosses the read HC raiders have done so, in much less gear. I don't seem to understand why you think you get to choose when they nerf content and whats considered holding ones hand or not. 8 ilvl upgrades are like big ass banana hands that hold a raid very tight.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not about a race. It's about beating the challenge laid out before me and my guild, yet now it's been lessened.

It's less every week.

[Tekkommo]

The nerfs have always happened, you should be used to it by now and it is no shock that they have started.

The content is starting to get old, so it is time to bring in the nerfs.

I know you talk of building a core raiding team, so does that mean they should also delay future patches or expansions until you have completed the content on the hardest difficulty?

[Deleted]

SEriously, people really QQ about this? It's not like it's something new.. Usually they just do the +5%dmg buff though :O

[KaPe]

Gotta say, I like those Paragon changes. Having Hisek Multishot someone for 400k during Fiery Edges was annoying as hell. Still doesn't change all the other things that can kill you there, which is exactly as it should be. Admitedly, if Edges were nerfed enough, it might allow to drop additional healer, but it won't really change that much.

Don't know about Siegecrafter, depends a lot on %. If we could drop a person from the belt each time, it would make things much faster and easier. He really needed some sort of nerf anyway, it was a brutal difficulty spike.

Ignoring that - gee, what a surprise. Every time something like this happens, someone comes out and cries his heart out. Oh, he was almost about to kill boss X. Oh, he was still "building the core". Sooo close. Too bad, you failed, move on.

[gallamann]

OP, I wouldn't look at these as nerfs but instead as attempts by Blizzard to balance the discrepancy between 25 and 10 man difficulty. If you are unable to see the huge advantage 2.5 times more raiders provide in flexibility, cool downs, rezes, off healing, etc... and how on certain fights that is a very large advantage over 10 man, then there is nothing anyone can say to sway your opinion.

[Songweaver]

Some of this has already been said, but I would like to state it again for the record.

First of all, there have been multiple nerfs since SoO has dropped, each and every time it has been to help smooth and even out the differences in difficulty between raid sizes. Thok nerfs are to even the playing field between 10's and 25s on all difficulties. Siegecrafter is to help smooth the progression from the prior boss. Paragons is only a very small change to again, smooth the transition.

These changes come because it takes time and numbers for Blizzard to see the big picture where there might be hang-ups. When the majority of the Heroic progression guilds are clearing content at a resonable pace, they'll leave all of it well alone. When a large enough number of guilds are hitting walls on specific bosses because of imbalances, they go in and make adjustments to smooth things out.

They're small balancing changes, not sweeping Raid nerfs that give everyone a % buff making the entire Raid a joke. I've done heroic progression through ICC and Cata and those kinds of sweeping nerfs do make Heroic's laughable. These small changes to help tune the Raid - even if they are a nerf - are beneficial to the game as a whole and do not make it feel any less of a joke than what it was. It will still take proper group balance, strategies, and attempts to kill the boss, instead of turning the encounter into an /lolfaceroll that any guild can waltz right in and kill the boss. Sometimes, these kinds of little tweaks are the breath of fresh air some groups need to pick back up and keep going when they're already frustrated.

It is a game, and everyone puts in time, some very little, others a vast amount to achieve their goals. Sometimes getting there happens. Othertimes, certain external factors make it impossible. You take your situation and make the most of it. You came late to the game, so complaining about blizzard making small changes to improve the overall quality of a Raid makes you sound like a child throwing a tantrum. Yes, I have been in your position before. Yes, it sucks, but when you come late to the game, you take what you can get, and look forward to the next Raid tier.

[Bizerk]

It's not about a race. It's about beating the challenge laid out before me and my guild, yet now it's been lessened.

Without being able to compare the difference what is your argument? 2 weeks of gear amount to what these nerfs would have for most people.

[Raeln]

Nope. The line is 6.0, or, it should be. Can't get to garrosh when WoD comes out? Then you're not good enough, which is fine. But let people try. It's obviously a money thing, they don't want people quitting, which is sad that they have to do that. (I know they are a company that needs to make money) Would be good if they cared about not holding everyone's hands instead of saving the subs of 'bad' players.

You do realize that "bad" is often a subjective label.

While you looking down your nose at those that won't kill Garrosh by WoD and label them as "bad" - there are other raiders that have already killed Garrosh that could look down their noses at you and call you "bad" too.

You don't sound like a "bad" player - so is it necessarily correct for you to automatically assume that by WoD, if someone hasn't killed Garrosh by then - that they are "bad"? What if they didn't start playing WoW until this year? What if they had schedules that didn't allow it? The point is - you don't know, yet apparently you like flinging labels around when you don't know other players' individual situations.

[Deleted]

I'm continuously bothered how letting threads like this run free is allowed for so long on these forums. Instead of trying to conceal baseless whining by whatever-guild-issues-you-may-or-may-not-have and everyone else surely doesn't have you should stop being so serious and wait for wod like everyone else. It's not like you are racing anyone anymore.

No exactly. No race, but personal enjoyment. What if we enjoy progression raiding and slowly overthrowing a difficult boss? No one is worried about another guild killing it quicker. We are worried about that "pinnacle of raiding" being lowered down to our level in stead of us having to rise up to the challenge. We don't appreciate blizzard taking that joy away from us (I know this is very exaggerated, but it is the crux of it). In stead of progressing we will have an increased period of time to wait for WoD.

[apollo2kappa]

Blizz said the encounters are more difficult that intended, and for every group like yours close to a kill there are others on the same boss but NOT close to a kill, and these adjustments bring the difficulty closer to what was intended. I completely understand wanting a kill before the nerfs, but you shouldn't be upset over not getting a killing on an over-tuned boss before it was properly tuned.

The actual nerfs will likely begin in a few weeks or months, when Blizz starts the incremental flat 5% nerfs (up to 30%, typically) to the raid as a whole.

[Nachturnal]

It's not about a race. It's about beating the challenge laid out before me and my guild, yet now it's been lessened.

A challenge you've had 4 months to overcome. And seriously, you're infuriated? As in seething, foaming from the mouth, red in the face, about to implode into yourself with the force of a black hole, swallowing everything in your path, infuriated? I can understand frustrated, but infuriated is best left for real life concerns. Plus, no one slapped you in the face, again you've had ample time to polish your epeen on Heroics, it's not insulting in any way. The game isn't made with YOUR thoughts in mind.

Lastly, be happy man, Garrosh hasn't been touched at all. That in itself is the best of challenges, ripe for the taking, waiting for your glorified pixels to crush him. Plus the nerfs seem pretty small, and for the first time, nicely detailed. Sorry man, but it was coming.

[Daltin]

The balance changes to the fights aren't going to make a difference between a wipe and a kill if you're not even close to begin with. If you aren't even working on the associated bosses when these balance changes happened, then what's the big deal?

There was a 15 week window of opportunity to defeat these bosses in their original iteration. But, again, the changes made are quality of life changes. You -STILL- have to perform the fights to perfection. A nerf to Siege weapon HP, or gravity damage, won't mean diddly if your raid isn't properly placing the Sawblades, or moving into correct positioning. It won't mean anything when Crawler Mines blow up your melee and wipe everyone.

Thok: Edit, didn't catch it was a 10 man only nerf for this boss.

Fiery Edge change on Paragons won't stop your tanks from getting gibbed during their Scorpion DPS transformation if your healers aren't paying attention, nor will it stop your raid from meeting the several DPS check points in the fight that make it drastically easier, such as being able to get 1 catalyst during Xaril. Fiery Edge, for everyone who has killed the fight on heroic, should've been a complete non-issue apart from the initial learning phases of the fight. As far as Multi-Shot goes, I have no idea why this was changed. Maybe it's because we kill that boss second instead of fourth that we don't see the damage from it ramp up. The potential for it to hurt a lot in combination with Korven was probably a needed change as well.

TL;DR , had 15 weeks, the changes won't impact a kill or non kill aside from Thok.

[MerinPally]

Better than a flat 5% nerf/buff increasing every week. They're changing like 1 or 2 abilities on like 4 bosses? Garrosh isn't being touched. It doesn't matter how entitled you feel to killing this without a nerf, you've had plenty of time. So what that you've been building a core raid group - the game doesn't wait for you. Keep up with the game or if you fall behind expect changes to be made. They aren't nerfing it so that everyone can see it, if you read the changes it's not going to be stuff that's halting progress. It's stuff that can be awful to deal with - but not progress halting stuff.

If you didn't kill it by now, and these nerfs really bother you - then you just weren't quick enough. Better luck next time. Tough shit. It happens, and if you want to do it before all nerfs to any bosses then be better, because you're not good enough yet for whatever reason it doesn't matter but if you were then you woulda cleared it already. Blizzard nor us care about your roster issue.

[Obtuse]

As long as they leave heroic Garrosh as it, the rest of the nerfs mean nothing.

[AeneasBK]

OP, I wouldn't look at these as nerfs but instead as attempts by Blizzard to balance the discrepancy between 25 and 10 man difficulty. If you are unable to see the huge advantage 2.5 times more raiders provide in flexibility, cool downs, rezes, off healing, etc... and how on certain fights that is a very large advantage over 10 man, then there is nothing anyone can say to sway your opinion.

*shrug* The added coordination required in 25 man is a massive disadvantage on most of the fights. And all the other differences between the formats ad nauseum

[Kazuchika]

No exactly. No race, but personal enjoyment. What if we enjoy progression raiding and slowly overthrowing a difficult boss? No one is worried about another guild killing it quicker. We are worried about that "pinnacle of raiding" being lowered down to our level in stead of us having to rise up to the challenge. We don't appreciate blizzard taking that joy away from us (I know this is very exaggerated, but it is the crux of it). In stead of progressing we will have an increased period of time to wait for WoD.

Blizzard doesn't care about your "pride". Blizzard cares about their overall bottom line. People wanting to finish the content don't care that someone's feelings are going to be hurt because they apparently have ignored the past six years of raiding and forgot end of expansion nerfs are a thing.

Get better and stop using the excuse of "paced progression" as a crutch. The marathon doesn't stop just because you want to admire the scenery.

[Ehrenpanzer]

Would be great if Blizzard would let other guilds try and beat content how it was originally designed, after all, it IS possible.

You had 5 months.....its not like they waited until STARS cleared then went "lull now its 30% nerfed, sucks to be the rest of you". True cutting edge guilds have cleared it already, your guild simply does not fall into that category. "Oh but we have have 5 core players" doesn't cut it for an excuse either, if that is the true reason you haven't progressed, then perhaps guild leadership is the real problem instead of the nerf timeline. Recruit dependable people who are as dedicated as you are to getting stuff cleared.

I checked your guilds website. I think the most telling thing is that you need a dedicated post on (and I quote) "How to be better at Raiding", which covers the most basic topics like gemming, potting, boss kill strat sites, WoL etc... The type of players you want to recruit wont need to be told these things...they will already know and will be using them without being told, so by having this up it tells me you really aren't recruiting the type of players you think you should be

Just my 2 cents