If Loot was to be removed from LFR, would you still do it?

[reckoner04]

My reaction was that there is no need for heroic gear then, as well you do not need it to beat the content.

You need it if you're playing at your personal skill cap and still can't beat a boss. You're basically saying that you have to improve your skill/performance every encounter if you want to beat them. That's not true, skill/performance and gear both factor into whether you beat an encounter or not, and skill/performance can be seen as constant in comparison to quickly changing gear.

Whether there's someone else who can beat an encounter with lower gear isn't even relevant. If you can't beat it after several tries, you have to get better gear since increasing your skill cap is unfeasible (maybe not if it's your first month of competitive raiding).

Therefore, gear improvement equals progression. That was his argument, I guess.

I used the term progression from a long-term perspective. There are of course feasible performance gains while learning an encounter, but that's short-term. We're looking at the performance after you've learned the encounter, since we assume Heroic to be tuned in such a fashion that learning an encounter is an intended part of the experience (in contrast to LFR).

[Eternal Ice]

Only once, the same goes for Flex and Normal (I don't participate in heroic raiding)

Now that I think about it, the only content I would do several times for an extended period of time, even if there weren't any rewards would be random bg's and arenas.

[Deleted]

You need it if you're playing at your personal skill cap and still can't beat a boss. You're basically saying that you have to improve your skill/performance every encounter if you want to beat them. That's not true, skill/performance and gear both factor into whether you beat an encounter or not, and skill/performance can be seen as constant in comparison to quickly changing gear.

Whether there's someone else who can beat an encounter with lower gear isn't even relevant. If you can't beat it after several tries, you have to get better gear since increasing your skill cap is unfeasible (maybe not if it's your first month of competitive raiding).

Therefore, gear improvement equals progression. That was his argument, I guess.

I used the term progression from a long-term perspective. There are of course feasible performance gains while learning an encounter, but that's short-term. We're looking at the performance after you've learned the encounter, since we assume Heroic to be tuned in such a fashion that learning an encounter is an intended part of the experience (in contrast to LFR).

What if i told you that heroic is not supposed to be for everyone? And isn't heroic raiding supposed to be about improving your own skill cap?

And how is it not relevant that someone els can do it but you cant, doesn´t that imply that you need to improve on yourself?

If there was no gear in heroic modes then there would still be gear progression on normal modes, as after you had done the normal modes you would have been ready to try out heroic.

[mistahwilshire]

There's literally ZERO problems with LFR giving out the shitty awful loot that it does. Let's move on.

[Deleted]

Don't need anything from LFR on my main so I never do it on him. So I guess my answer is no, I wouldn't do it. Maybe one time for the lore or something.

[reckoner04]

What if i told you that heroic is not supposed to be for everyone?

That would mean that Heroic is only supposed to be for the people who could clear the instance in the first week (without gear improvement). This is of course totally ridiculous.

And isn't heroic raiding supposed to be about improving your own skill cap?

And how is it not relevant that someone els can do it but you cant, doesn´t that imply that you need to improve on yourself?

If there was no gear in heroic modes then there would still be gear progression on normal modes, as after you had done the normal modes you would have been ready to try out heroic.

Stop bringing up arguments that have been countered in your quote already.

[Deleted]

That would mean that Heroic is only supposed to be for the people who could clear the instance in the first week (without gear improvement). This is of course totally ridiculous.



Stop bringing up arguments that have been countered in your quote already.

I do not think you get it. If heroic would not drop gear improvements you would have the normal gear from the last tier. So if you would clear the next tier for the first time you would be able to enter the heroic the next (just like it is now). You could have a go at the first hc boss, and you might even be able to kill it (just like now) but you would not be able to clear it as you would need more gear from normals in order to kill it. So you would clear normal again for gear in order to progress more into heroic.
You did not counter anything as far as im concerned, all you did was claiming that you did not really need to improve yourself, you only needed to improve your gear.
Stop beeing intentionally thick

[ro9ue]

I do not think you get it. If heroic would not drop gear improvements you would have the normal gear from the last tier. So if you would clear the next tier for the first time you would be able to enter the heroic the next (just like it is now). You could have a go at the first hc boss, and you might even be able to kill it (just like now) but you would not be able to clear it as you would need more gear from normals in order to kill it. So you would clear normal again for gear in order to progress more into heroic.
You did not counter anything as far as im concerned, all you did was claiming that you did not really need to improve yourself, you only needed to improve your gear.
Stop beeing intentionally thick

Ok so simple, just drop normal gear in heroics. Now we don't need heroic gear do we? You guys can just do that for the "challenge". Seriously why the fuck do people care so much about LFR dropping loot or the fucking color of the loot.

[Deleted]

the content seeing part of lfr is probably not aimed at people who visit websites about wow.

[zorkuus]

There's literally ZERO problems with LFR giving out the shitty awful loot that it does. Let's move on.

This, the loot in LFR is already very bad in terms of iLvL (timeless gives better for crying out loud) so I don't see any reason to make it even worse. For some people it's the only way to even minimally progress their character.

[Deleted]

The person who voted yes must have been trolling.

Why is that?

Ever since Vanilla I've been in favour of a system that makes it possible to see the lore progression of raid instances without the need of a tight group of raiders. I was a hardcore raider in Vanilla and thus I never missed out on anything, but I became a more casual player in TBC and I felt sad that I never got to see the entire thing. It's much for that reason that I enjoy soloing old content today with my high level character, just to see the instance from the inside and see the story progress.

My own suggestion back during TBC was to create some kind of soloable raid instance in which the bosses were very easy. That way you could at least see the story even if you didn't have a dedicated group of raiding friends.

But LFR fills this spot today, it made raiding accessible to the masses. It makes it possible for everyone to see the lore progression and thus nobody misses out on parts of the story. Even if LFR had no loot I would still run it to see the story, but bosses would have to be even easier than currently. And there would be no point in running it more than once. But there's really no point in removing loot now, LFR is fine as it is.

[Deleted]

lfr is probably not aimed at people who visit websites about wow.

Indeed, and thats why removing gear from it might not even make a statistical difference enough for Blizzard to notice. Atleast not in the negative direction.

I would love for Blizzard to go to their original loot concept when they were still designing this game, and that is that if you go to dungeon, get a world drop or craft something, you get a sword. If you go to a raid, you get a flaming sword, with roughly the same iLvl. To summarize: best gear doesn't necessarily drop from raids, but the coolest sure does.

Though I'm afraid the entitled group would not cope well with it.

[Deleted]

Now the community is showing its true colors.

"LFR is a great way for me to experience current content whenever I feel like it. I'm solely interested in the storyline."
Sure.

Although the MMO-Champion community is not one rich of LFR players, I do feel a certain irony. Especially since many "raiders" state LFR is good, but this is obviously in terms of gearing up alts only.

[Iseeyou]

I would resub and most of my friends

[ro9ue]

LFR is endgame for some, but it isn't intended to be afaik. It's supposed to offer players the possibility to see the current content if they otherwise couldn't. I think the loot rewarded should be the same gear that drops in dungeons (though that creates minor lore issues) or none at all.

The reward should be to see the content, that's why it has been implemented in the first place. If that alone isn't enough to make the feature valuable, then this reason has been nonsensical from the start and LFR should be removed. And that's what the poll seems to tell us, though the MMOC community is extremely biased.

If LFR gets removed as alternative endgame (which it currently is to many) or removed completely (unlikely), another sort of endgame for the demographic who considers current LFR their endgame would have to be introduced. Dungeons, for example (beside scenarios), which would incidentally lead us back to where we were before...

That's like saying heroic rewards are the challenge. Just have them drop normal mode gear.

[Deleted]

That's like saying heroic rewards are the challenge. Just have them drop normal mode gear.

Yet what he's saying is the truth and the reason LFR was implented.
Think back to DS, were everyone had to roll on 6 items, most of which weren't appropriate for any of the participants.

[Deleted]

I would do it once.

[Deleted]

That's like saying heroic rewards are the challenge. Just have them drop normal mode gear.

Well, for most of the top guilds, this is the case. It's about challenge and bragging rights, and they would love the idea that they wouldn't have to grind the raid for BiS gear to be competitive in next tier. For a lot of people heroic gear is not a reward in the long run, but a restriction to keep them from unsubbing between raids.

[Thage]

I'd do it once and watch the raid team's budget get slashed again when raid attendance tanks because Blizzard screwed over the LFR playerbase to please a bunch of narcissists who don't even rate a single digit in the overall player base.

[ro9ue]

Yet what he's saying is the truth and the reason LFR was implented.

Maybe that's the reason, but why would anyone do it after the first time. Obviously dropping gear in LFR serves a very important purpose, giving the content for millions of players longevity. It's the same thing with heroic modes. If you play for the challenge, great, some quit after they clear that tier, but it's the gear dropping that gives them a reason to log in another week.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, for most of the top guilds, this is the case. It's about challenge and bragging rights, and they would love the idea that they wouldn't have to grind the raid for BiS gear to be competitive in next tier. For a lot of people heroic gear is not a reward in the long run, but a restriction to keep them from unsubbing between raids.

Agree that some do it for the challenge, and those same people quit after they finish a heroic tier until the next one. Gear is what Blizzard uses to give raiding content longevity. So if you do LFR, Normal, Flex or Heroic, what gets people to log in the next week is by having a variable interval reward structure with gear.