A Vanilla Raider's View on the Development of World of Warcraft

[Gangplank]

But you admit, you look at it with rose covered goggles. Objectively, it's very flawed to say that the game was better back then. Even if we were new to the experience, it doesn't mean it was inherently better. In fact, the game continually improves on a lot of these things even today, and we take it for granted.

I didn't say your post was wrong by any means. I actually reinforced your sentiments about Vanilla being the unpolished stone it was. I was merely saying that, "rose tinted glasses" or not, Vanilla was fun and no one had a reference point to complain about inconveniences because we took it as part of the game/journey. Had to fly 8 minutes on a flight path? That's just part of the journey. Had a 5 minute walk-back to your corpse because there was only one graveyard? That was part of the journey as well. When we consider all the conveniences that WoW now has today, it certainly does make Vanilla look like such a terrible era for WoW, but had Blizzard not implemented those conveniences, no one would be any the wiser about it, and there wouldn't be such a discrepancy between Vanilla and later expansions. Yes, the dungeons and classes still weren't tuned properly, but people would still enjoy the game as they once did.

[Exinium]

I didn't say your post was wrong by any means. I actually reinforced your sentiments about Vanilla being the unpolished stone it was. I was merely saying that, "rose tinted glasses" or not, Vanilla was fun and no one had a reference point to complain about inconveniences because we took it as part of the game/journey. Had to fly 8 minutes on a flight path? That's just part of the journey. Had a 5 minute walk-back to your corpse because there was only one graveyard? That was part of the journey as well. When we consider all the conveniences that WoW now has today, it certainly does make Vanilla look like such a terrible era for WoW, but had Blizzard not implemented those conveniences, no one would be any the wiser about it, and there wouldn't be such a discrepancy between Vanilla and later expansions. Yes, the dungeons and classes still weren't tuned properly, but people would still enjoy the game as they once did.

That's my exact argument, probably worded a bit differently. My goal, like I said, is simply to make people see that Vanilla wasn't this idealistic thing that we should all strive to achieve again. We've built so heavily upon our experiences in Vanilla that it would be silly to want to go back to that.

[schwank05]

I played in vanilla, but couldn't ever commit to level to max level, I raided from start of BC until MOP. And for me MOP has killed the game, I don't want to see the same raid 4-5 times on different difficulties and raid sizes. I definitely want rewarding and tough 5-mans back, Basically I want the feel of BC back with split raids that were based on size and also to have your progression based on what raid tier you are in, I remember my T4 being good in T6 content, what was so wrong with that, seeing people in T6 motivated me to work harder on T5 to get to their level.

[Pozz]

It wasn't terrible, just bug filled and inherently broken. You're confusing objective analysis with personal assessment. I had a lot of fun in Vanilla WoW too, and the game was incredible for me, a young boy, to immerse myself in. However, it doesn't change the fact that it WAS broken.

A lot of stuff was broken, yes. But your entire thread is based upon functionality, and not philosophy. I don't think a single sane person would say "remove everything and just let us have TBC/Vanilla/EQ/Whatever back"

What most people (at least according to my observations) want, is a design philosophy change back to TBC. This does not neccesarily mean they want to remove later added content types.

[Templis]

That's my exact argument, probably worded a bit differently. My goal, like I said, is simply to make people see that Vanilla wasn't this idealistic thing that we should all strive to achieve again. We've built so heavily upon our experiences in Vanilla that it would be silly to want to go back to that.

I think you're confusing elements and design choices of vanilla with the whole package. I don't think anyone wants Vanilla WoW back as it was, but rather some elements that made vanilla and BC interesting and more immersive. Players that want to indulge in the old experience can do so via private servers and for the most part they do.

Features should not be dismissed as bad 'due to nostalgia' just because we have moved away from them, nor should we praise every new feature just because it IS new. The features that the game has, or had, create the environment, incentivize the players to do things, and deliver challenges and the appropriate rewards. Silencing opposing arguments in this fashion is incredible popular here and incredibly disingenuous. Blizzard does make decisions that they later revert.

Vanilla WoW was not idealistic in the sense that it was buggy or unbalanced, but it's not to say that it had a large number of features that did make it idealistic, some of which we have moved away from. People did not play WoW because there were no alternatives. The market had a number of MMOs that preceeded and followed WoW's release, both of the more hardcore or more casual variety. When I first dove into WoW, I was torn between WoW and Guild Wars, and a friend of mine convinced me to join him in Azeroth because in Guild Wars you only interact with players in a city, can get max level characters with ease, and had an in-game store, which meant that players would not be on equal footing unless they dished out dole.

[Caliph]

Wait so cataclysm was needed?

wotlk was bad?

nvm. will discount everything you said.

[Deleted]

This has been a great read, Exinium! Well written!

[TCceen]

Why write "vanilla raider" in the title and then talk about nothing but pvp and class balance?

you want to know what Vanilla raiding was like... this was raiding as the top Lock of 5 locks in a 40 man hardcore raiding guild....

rules
1. only 5 debuff slots ( or was it 6) so don't use dots, or debuffs
2. Only cast Shadow bolt
3. Don't cast it too often or you'll get aggro
4. Wand instead of Shadow bolt when you're near the bosses or you'll get aggro....
5. Raid for at least 16 months, 5 days a week and hope you get a full tier 1 (which didn't even have graphics until several months into the raiding tier) because the bosses only dropped 2 pieces to share with 40 people (and all sets were 8 pieces!). I was first lock of 5 to complete set after 16 months!!!!!!! Didn't miss a raiding day either.

[AzazeltheRuthless]

I disagree with the points made in this little thing as well, I though Vanilla and BC were wonderful.

Their were some classes that weren't properly balanced and that's alright that happens in new games, specially giant MMO's where developers can't think of everyhting in the beginning, basically a lot if forgiven. I wouldn't say a lot of classes were "overpowered" as some would say, a couple had certain broken mechanics. Shaman's Windfury Procs, Warlocks Endless Fear, Paladin Bubble and Reckoning (if you want to see how op this is look up the One Shot of Kazzak video, absolutely hilarious.) Hunters were kinda boned in Vanilla and I could see the understand of possibly not liking that, I mean auto attack pulled more dps than any rotation you could ever do, but hell they did let you guys practically use every weapon and any item you wanted in the game practically. Rogues, Warriors, etc.... a lot of classes people always said were "op" just had some broken mechanics. Typically it all came down to in the end that the broken mechanics kind of countered each other a lot of time.

Vanilla though brought the epic experiences, yeah you had to fly or run to Alterac Valley and then you got to fight in probably the greatest BG of its time, where you could literally be in an Alter Valley for 6-8 hours, literally people were known to go to school or work, come back home and relog back into their Alterac Valley still going on. Must of you know, are looking for you instant one shot, as quick as possible stuff, though this brought an epicness to the battle. The bloodbath battles at Tarren Mill and Southshore before BG existences, where it was just all out war. The Honor Point system, where the top people in World pvp got a title and had to defend that title. Being the High Warlord, instantly put a target the every alliance player on the server was out for your head.

Raiding was just an experience at this time, I do agree I don't think raiding was great. Also as a side note, if you can't solo MC, you need to possibly think about giving up. I was able to solo that thing with no problem in Wrath, and practically 2-3 man it in BC. Anyways back to my point, raiding was different because it was new. Blackwing Lair had some really cool fighting in it, Chromaggus, Nefarian, etc.... You had multiple stats to worry about, balancing resistances and everything. Just brought a whole new concept to the game. I didn't like 40 man raids, because ugh it took forever, not having the AOE buffs was quite a pain too. Raiding was probably the weakest part of Vanilla, but still was enjoyable none the less. They actually felt like an accomplishment in the end and not like some of the fights now where literally its just face check it and down it.

That's kind it for my ramblings about Vanilla....BC was epic. Period, enough said, everything about it ruled and your on drugs or didn't play if you didn't think so. BC was pretty much the only expansion where Blizzard got everything practically right. BC had the greatest check ever to prepare you for raiding, Attunements. You either did it or you didn't raid. Best way to weed players out, if they didn't have their attunements done, you knew they weren't ready to go. System needs to come back and scrap Item Level, Gearscore, and any of these either completely asinine systems.

[Nightman]

I played as a Vanilla raider as a hunter (reached rank 14 on my rogue in pvp), and AQ40 and nax raids were by far the greatest raids I've ever experienced in the game. The only down fall to pvpers was that if you weren't raiding nax only pvped just got destroyed badly in bgs against people who had raiding gear sadly.

C'thun fight is still the best boss personally I've ever fought, maybe Illidan fight could be up there too but having 40 people scream in vent after a server first race kill was just so more satisfying. Also having the server come together to open the gates was definitely something new and refreshing even tho it took a long ass time. I remember my guild selling bwl and mc spots for people who donated the most supplies. One thing i don't miss is that farming for resistances gear, farming for frost resist gear for Sapphiron fight was a killer grind. Even grinding in silithus for the cenarion rep for the earthstrike trinket took months. I know alot of people before raids would go to felwood for the flower crit buff and then to ZG for the hakkar buff just for a kill, which now these days that would be insane.


I still raid actively since the beginning (taken some breaks here and there), just sad to see this current raid tier going on for a year.

Everyone has there own view of the game some will agree some won't. We still talk about this game alot they must be doing something right


Cheers all

[Kuntantee]

Complaining about rep grind in Cataclysm while not even mentioning it on Mists of Pandaria...Right! It seems like you wouldn't rate any of expansions more than 4/10. WoW is not your game I suppose.

[TCceen]

I played as a Vanilla raider as a hunter (reached rank 14 on my rogue in pvp), and AQ40 and nax raids were by far the greatest raids I've ever experienced in the game. The only down fall to pvpers was that if you weren't raiding nax only pvped just got destroyed badly in bgs against people who had raiding gear sadly.

C'thun fight is still the best boss personally I've ever fought, maybe Illidan fight could be up there too but having 40 people scream in vent after a server first race kill was just so more satisfying. Also having the server come together to open the gates was definitely something new and refreshing even tho it took a long ass time. I remember my guild selling bwl and mc spots for people who donated the most supplies. One thing i don't miss is that farming for resistances gear, farming for frost resist gear for Sapphiron fight was a killer grind. Even grinding in silithus for the cenarion rep for the earthstrike trinket took months. I know alot of people before raids would go to felwood for the flower crit buff and then to ZG for the hakkar buff just for a kill, which now these days that would be insane.


I still raid actively since the beginning (taken some breaks here and there), just sad to see this current raid tier going on for a year.

Everyone has there own view of the game some will agree some won't. We still talk about this game alot they must be doing something right


Cheers all

Rose tinted glasses, I would never play a game again that was as time consuming just for the sake of BEING time consuming as Vanilla or BC was. I really like Wildstar so far, but it does have several of those time consuming elements in it, just a LOT more fun and balanced things in the game to actually make it worth it.

[Deficineiron]

That wonderful, living world! (Even though you can still fly around while you're waiting for queue. Even though there were less subscribers back then than now. Even though this was before Cataclysm, and the standard for zone design was sub par. Even though flying to the Blackrock instances couldn't take a more boring path from SW.)

this is actually not true in part - the game has less subs now than in late classic.

- - - Updated - - -

Rose tinted glasses, I would never play a game again that was as time consuming just for the sake of BEING time consuming as Vanilla or BC was. I really like Wildstar so far, but it does have several of those time consuming elements in it, just a LOT more fun and balanced things in the game to actually make it worth it.

rose-tinted glasses is a phrase used to dismiss another person's opinion without actually addressing it NOR accepting it as a valid opinion. Under current wow game theory, complaints about old game-states are not distorted perceptions that have simmered over time, but compliments about prior game-states are in fact self-reinforced delusions.

[TCceen]

this is actually not true in part - the game has less subs now than in late classic.

- - - Updated - - -



rose-tinted glasses is a phrase used to dismiss another person's opinion without actually addressing it NOR accepting it as a valid opinion. Under current wow game theory, complaints about old game-states are not distorted perceptions that have simmered over time, but compliments about prior game-states are in fact self-reinforced delusions.

You're dismissing my opinion about someone else's opinion without reading my reasoning for the horrible game play elements in previous posts. Vanilla and BC experiences were good "for their time". They no longer are welcome in games today, period, just look at horrid Asian mmo's and their glorified grinding of content. Look at Masters of the Universe and Silverhawks, even Voltron and Thundercats. I LOOOVED those when I was a kid, they were the best thing to ever grace television in story! action! such creative outlets of fun! Yeah... go watch even 1 episode on youtube now and those Rose tinted glasses get thrown in the trash, they were absolutely terrible. Poor writing, horrid screeching voice acting you can't bare to even listen to, crappy animation (except for the opening sequences) and then you realize your parents were right! they were 30 minute toy commercials! Look at the plot and details of Silverhawks... really? But of course they were so so cool at the time and you still think that to this day. Put up a Vanilla server and no one would play it, I guarantee it. It would be cluster of outdated, badly executed elements that have evolved since into todays gaming 'standard'.

Look at DAoC? It was spectacular in its day!!! No quest guides, NO MAP, no mounts and an exellent PVP keep system (which was adopted by Wildhammer and ESO) Just because you have nostalgic memories of first experiencing it doesn't mean you should never evolve. Sometimes the past is better left as happy memory, then to dissect and turn it into a regret.

[raviadso]

The game keeps getting better (other than story), but people keep confusing their nostalgia for how they used to feel for the game for real complaints about the game. The game is tighter, more convenient, more creative and more fairly challenging.

People confuse cheap for hard
People confuse more convenient for easy
People confuse large time commitments to difficult and not just a P.I.T.A.

[Deficineiron]

You're dismissing my opinion about someone else's opinion without reading my reasoning for the horrible game play elements in previous posts. Vanilla and BC experiences were good "for their time". They no longer are welcome in games today, period, just look at horrid Asian mmo's and their glorified grinding of content. Look at Masters of the Universe and Silverhawks, even Voltron and Thundercats. I LOOOVED those when I was a kid, they were the best thing to ever grace television in story! action! such creative outlets of fun! Yeah... go watch even 1 episode on youtube now and those Rose tinted glasses get thrown in the trash, they were absolutely terrible. Poor writing, horrid screeching voice acting you can't bare to even listen to, crappy animation (except for the opening sequences) and then you realize your parents were right! they were 30 minute toy commercials! Look at the plot and details of Silverhawks... really? But of course they were so so cool at the time and you still think that to this day. Put up a Vanilla server and no one would play it, I guarantee it. It would be cluster of outdated, badly executed elements that have evolved since into todays gaming 'standard'.

Look at DAoC? It was spectacular in its day!!! No quest guides, NO MAP, no mounts and an exellent PVP keep system (which was adopted by Wildhammer and ESO) Just because you have nostalgic memories of first experiencing it doesn't mean you should never evolve. Sometimes the past is better left as happy memory, then to dissect and turn it into a regret.

I am not dismissing your opinion - I am pointing out that you are using a catch-phrase to avoid debating (which you may have done in other posts, haven't reached that part yet). Additionally, you surely should be aware that OPINIONS about previous game states are, by definition, all valid, both yours and whomever's.

[TheTaurenOrc]

1. only 5 debuff slots ( or was it 6) so don't use dots, or debuffs

The limit was 8 debuffs for a single target initially, patch 1.7.0 increased it to 16, patch 2.0.1 increased it to 40, Wrath removed any limit.

Also considering that similar effect would not stack even across classes, the fact that some were for mechanics that bosses wouldn't have, i.e. healing reduction.

more dots, more dots

[Deficineiron]

The game keeps getting better (other than story), but people keep confusing their nostalgia for how they used to feel for the game for real complaints about the game. The game is tighter, more convenient, more creative and more fairly challenging.

People confuse cheap for hard
People confuse more convenient for easy
People confuse large time commitments to difficult and not just a P.I.T.A.

people confuse doing more damage than than they used to at the same level, when really those two different numbers are really the same. x = y, you know, when classic wow damage at a given level = y, today's damage at same level = x = y+n, n an integer. only in wow does this math work, don't try it at school or work!!

similar but inverted equation for mob damage at level. note that I mean the same mobs that were in classic, just doing much lower damage at the same level. equation upon request.

I am not sure what 'fairly challenging' means, it sounds like a euphemism for easier without the stigma.

I agree the game is more convenient.

I am not sure I see it as more creative, but that is subjective.

Dedication to a time-consuming task is a type of difficulty on its own.

cheap for hard? if it was hard, it was really not and not hard?

I feel like I am having to parse INGSOC.

let me seee how it can work

Easy content is challenging
Convenient content is demanding
Quick content is immersive

[RyanEX]

Why write "vanilla raider" in the title and then talk about nothing but pvp and class balance?

Vanilla raiding could be summed up in a few words. Either wipe quickly, one shot the boss, or reclear trash in between wipes because back then trash WOULD and COULD respawn during an encounter.

Not fun.


On a personal level Wrath was enjoyable. But I think the main draw of it for people was the fact that many started Warcraft with warcraft 3. So it was the chance to finally stick it to the main villain that everyone knew about.

The opposite could be said about Cataclysm. It introduced a villain that wasn't well known after an expansion with the best known villain of the universe. And that turned a lot of people off.

[blackblade]

So you're enjoying World of Queuecraft? I honestly miss having to fly to instances. It took 3 minutes, and I got to see all the cool shit going on under me.

Maybe you should do something harder than LFR/LFD/Flex?