[Holy] WoD Alpha/Beta Info & Discussion

[Astraios]

I heavily dislike the state of paladins in the current beta. You're not healing the tank, your tank healing is the shitiest. You're not healing the raid, paladin aoe healing is a joke. What you are doing as a paladin is being a parasite. Do you know all that useless dmg that would get healed by passive effects and that none dies from. Well as a paladin you excel at absorbing it.

As i said, I won't fotm play druid on live. But no way playing pala like this.

So, I've only had one fight experience so far on beta as I just came back and expect to be maining a hpaly next expo despite this thread making it sound dismal (MW look terrible, but thats a different story for a different thread). I'm pretty sure we were overhealing, however my tank healing was 2x higher than the druids on a single tank, and including the second tank was 3x higher. Comparing to any other healer (than the druid) it was on a completely different level. This was with illuminated healing doing 19%~ of my healing. It's possible this was a fluke since both tanks were tanking most of the time so double beacon was extraordinarily effective on the twins. In any case, my experience was the exact opposite of what you referenced, or specifically that holy paladin's "tank healing is the shitiest".

I found the healing style to be reminiscent of monks in early 5.0 patches, in the idea that you benefit from storing 5HP before burst damage etc. As such, I thought the healing was pretty fun. Not as complex as 5.0 monks (most fun class ever), however comparing to what I hear from a lot of other healers, its not particularly "simple minded".

@Jackielope: in reference to wanting an "active CD", I would argue that Hpally have the most unique "active CD" in the form of AW (esp. in its current form...it's ridiculous: nearly 300% healing increase). Not only is pressing one button and then standing there basically AFK for 8s the exact opposite of "engaging gameplay" or "fun" (in my opinion), but it is the exact same type of healing that every other healer has. AW gives us the niche of having extremely strong healing for 20s, the entire duration of a long AoE phase, as compared to just being able to try and pick up a raid. If you're desperately in need of huge burst healing like the other classes have, then pop holy avenger and AW 8-10s before a "10s burst window" and then with 3HoPo EF's on 5 targets + your 5 extra EF's (or LoD if you need front-loaded instant healing, but I still think EF keeping the lowest people alive is superior in these cases) during the burst window and holy prism/lights hammer, and I'm pretty sure you'll have similar healing output as every other healer using their own burst cooldowns [except with more prep/buttons, but personally I find that more fun anyway.]

TLDR: I thought hpally was enjoyable. I don't see/agree with the "doom and gloom" the majority of this thread has expressed, and as such thought I'd share my opinion.

Edit: I do think that EF/LoD being a cast time is very stupid from a player standpoint, esp. since it used to be instant. On the other hand, it would make our on the move healing pretty dang strong (other than the fact that we still have pre-shielding/HoT's AKA EF, as well as divine shield.) Combined with the utility that the hand-abilities bring, and I can see why blizzard thinks hpal would be too mobile/useful as a whole with instant LoD/EF. (I don't agree with it, but I also don't agree with how they gutted other classes. I can kind of understand why they did it though.)

[mcbubble]

TLDR: I thought hpally was enjoyable. I don't see/agree with the "doom and gloom" the majority of this thread has expressed, and as such thought I'd share my opinion.

We're concerned with our playstyle for several issues which we mentioned MANY times before (in this thread).
I also see on live that your monk is 12/14 HM and your paladin is 14/14 normal (0 heroic).
Not knocking your progress, but those of us who have been playing our paladin for a while are concerned.

Also, what's up with monks in this channel? Do they get together and say, "Hey, let's post on the paladin forums to get 'em all riled up?"...

[nightfalls]

Also, what's up with monks in this channel? Do they get together and say, "Hey, let's post on the paladin forums to get 'em all riled up?"...

The monk class might be terrible playing too, which should be fixed if so, but that's no reason to go post on paladin forums.

In any case, he wasn't be anti-constructive like Floopa, he was posting constructively even if disagreeing, which is 100% fine. The issue I had with Floopa was not so much that he was disagreeing with us, but that he was just troll-baiting this thread into talking about off-topic and/or unimportant/irrelevant things while "contributing" absolutely nothing of value.

[Deleted]

So, I've only had one fight experience so far on beta as I just came back and expect to be maining a hpaly next expo despite this thread making it sound dismal (MW look terrible, but thats a different story for a different thread). I'm pretty sure we were overhealing, however my tank healing was 2x higher than the druids on a single tank, and including the second tank was 3x higher. Comparing to any other healer (than the druid) it was on a completely different level. This was with illuminated healing doing 19%~ of my healing. It's possible this was a fluke since both tanks were tanking most of the time so double beacon was extraordinarily effective on the twins. In any case, my experience was the exact opposite of what you referenced, or specifically that holy paladin's "tank healing is the shitiest".

I stand by what I said, because the druid didn't actually heal the tanks other then rej/lifebloom(probably).

Right now in the current beta tanks are extremely overpowered and do most of their required healing by themselves, specially guardian druids and blood dks and to a lesser extent but still potent prot warrior and pala. Literally I can't remember the last time a tank died which wasn't his fault in a raid scenario.
They don't need actual single target healing to stay alive even. Twin Ogron is a perfect example of a fight with so little tank damage(until one of them dies at least) that its almost a joke.

If you need a healer to take an active role in healing the tank however, you'll see much different results.

[Astraios]

We're concerned with our playstyle for several issues which we mentioned MANY times before (in this thread).
I also see on live that your monk is 12/14 HM and your paladin is 14/14 normal (0 heroic).
Not knocking your progress, but those of us who have been playing our paladin for a while are concerned.

Also, what's up with monks in this channel? Do they get together and say, "Hey, let's post on the paladin forums to get 'em all riled up?"...

I raid(ed) with promethean, we had too many healers and due to a few other factors (such as wanting to improve my school grades) I decided to sit for progression on the last three bosses (and have been on hiatus since). I've otherwise been raiding with them for boss kills on a large portion of important progression kills this expansion, a guild which is US#7 and World#23. If that's not good enough "experience" for you, then I'm not sure you should be talking on a paladin forum which EVERYONE has access to. I already prefaced my statement with the fact that I am heavily considering maining a holy paladin this expansion. I'm not here to "get 'em all riled up?", because I'm here joining a discussion which I disagree with. If your first response to disagreement with someone is to attempt to discredit them instead of arguing with their points, then you're already admitting defeat.

As for "those of us who have been playing our paladin for awhile are concerned." I wasn't aware that playing a class for a long time has any impact on the viability or enjoyability of the class in the future. You might not like how the new paladin is headed compared to where it was before, however that doesn't mean it won't be viable/enjoyable for some players. Maybe not you, and you're entitled to that opinion. How about new players? How about people who don't mind where it's headed (esp. in comparison to other healers, not limited to but including disc/MW), and are willing to swap classes because they're generally competent on most classes?

I've now explained twice, once in passing and once in detail, my current progression and my decision to start posting in these forums (AKA: very likely maining a holy paladin in WoD), further questions will be ignored.

I understand that my opinions appear to be against the vein of this thread, which is exactly why I posted here, because when everyone agrees, there is zero discussion other than a circlejerk. (Also it was an extremely depressing thread for anyone to read.)

[Freia]

Edit: I do think that EF/LoD being a cast time is very stupid from a player standpoint, esp. since it used to be instant. On the other hand, it would make our on the move healing pretty dang strong (other than the fact that we still have pre-shielding/HoT's AKA EF, as well as divine shield.) Combined with the utility that the hand-abilities bring, and I can see why blizzard thinks hpal would be too mobile/useful as a whole with instant LoD/EF. (I don't agree with it, but I also don't agree with how they gutted other classes. I can kind of understand why they did it though.)

You leave out one big thing. The fact you have to stand still to get more holy power than 1 every 5-6 seconds to use those abilities. So no it wouldn't be too strong.

And as for a depressing thread, you know we had a monk in here basically derailing the thread for several pages telling us that making suggestions and discussing possible changes to mechanics were a waste of time? Yea you can't really expect a good thread from that kind of crap.

[Astraios]

I stand by what I said, because the druid didn't actually heal the tanks other then rej/lifebloom(probably).

Right now in the current beta tanks are extremely overpowered and do most of their required healing by themselves, specially guardian druids and blood dks and to a lesser extent but still potent prot warrior and pala. Literally I can't remember the last time a tank died which wasn't his fault in a raid scenario.
They don't need actual single target healing to stay alive even. Twin Ogron is a perfect example of a fight with so little tank damage(until one of them dies at least) that its almost a joke.

If you need a healer to take an active role in healing the tank however, you'll see much different results.

I was healing a BrM monk and a prot warrior. They definitely needed healing, whether that was their own mis-play or not I can't attest (as they're the only ones I've healed), but when 50% of my healing was on the tanks (esp. since spamming holy light for HoPo is essentially mana neutral) I wouldn't say they don't need any outside healing.

I can see the argument of being weak in burst single target healing (aka holy light/flash of light being weak in comparison to other classes), however when you are also getting 50% of EF ticks and 50% of your heal also healing the other tank as well as another 25%~ as a shield, their effective tank healing in an environment with multiple healers is extremely stabilizing . From experience on live (where their current tank healing is/has been in a similar state), including an hpally makes tanks significantly easier to keep alive. Again, it might be bad in the specific role of "large burst heals" [don't have experience which could say in either direction], however you have another 4 (5?) healers who can take that role. All the while, including the hpally will still make the tanks much more stable (which is, I can say with zero doubt, of great value for progression.) I don't think this is necessarily bad in the long term, and as usual having a unique role and being able to capitalize on it in a raid is what makes healers worth a raid spot. Encounter design could render this role useless, and this is entirely possible. I don't have enough experience in WoD raids (nor any mythic experience) to give my opinion on whether or not it renders the role useless, but saying a class has worthless healing because it covers a different role from other healers, I don't agree with.

Anyway, these are my opinions, and the entire point of a discussion is to reconcile two opinions into one correct (or two more informed) opinions/stances.

[Deleted]

I understand that my opinions appear to be against the vein of this thread, which is exactly why I posted here, because when everyone agrees, there is zero discussion other than a circlejerk. (Also it was an extremely depressing thread for anyone to read.)

On the contrary, I think its great seeing an optimistic post.

But you lack high end experience at this point, and it shows.

@Jackielope: in reference to wanting an "active CD", I would argue that Hpally have the most unique "active CD" in the form of AW (esp. in its current form...it's ridiculous: nearly 300% healing increase). Not only is pressing one button and then standing there basically AFK for 8s the exact opposite of "engaging gameplay" or "fun" (in my opinion), but it is the exact same type of healing that every other healer has. AW gives us the niche of having extremely strong healing for 20s, the entire duration of a long AoE phase, as compared to just being able to try and pick up a raid. If you're desperately in need of huge burst healing like the other classes have, then pop holy avenger and AW 8-10s before a "10s burst window" and then with 3HoPo EF's on 5 targets + your 5 extra EF's (or LoD if you need front-loaded instant healing, but I still think EF keeping the lowest people alive is superior in these cases) during the burst window and holy prism/lights hammer, and I'm pretty sure you'll have similar healing output as every other healer using their own burst cooldowns [except with more prep/buttons, but personally I find that more fun anyway.]

This is all very nice. But Tranquility costs 7.3k mana and heals everyone in the raid in a 40 yards radius for 20k every 2 secs. Its really fun that AW increases healing by 300%(OMG RIDICULOUS) but a 300% Holy Radiance still costs 14k mana and still has 10 yards range(and still heals for less on those 6 people then 1 tick of tranq).

Again, it might be bad in the specific role of "large burst heals" [don't have experience which could say in either direction], however you have another 4 (5?) healers who can take that role.

You have 3 other healers except yourself in Mythic on any decent boss. I don't need to see any to tell you this. If a boss is really hard, you drop a healer.

You're thinking from a very optimistic perspective without seeing the competitive side of healing. Let me ask you something:
If your raid tonight would of dropped the BRM for a Guardian Druid(who I assure you takes significantly less dmg), could it also drop you?

[mcbubble]

I raid(ed) with promethean, we had too many healers and due to a few other factors (such as wanting to improve my school grades) I decided to sit for progression on the last three bosses (and have been on hiatus since). I've otherwise been raiding with them for boss kills on a large portion of important progression kills this expansion, a guild which is US#7 and World#23. If that's not good enough "experience" for you, then I'm not sure you should be talking on a paladin forum which EVERYONE has access to. I already prefaced my statement with the fact that I am heavily considering maining a holy paladin this expansion. I'm not here to "get 'em all riled up?", because I'm here joining a discussion which I disagree with. If your first response to disagreement with someone is to attempt to discredit them instead of arguing with their points, then you're already admitting defeat.

As for "those of us who have been playing our paladin for awhile are concerned." I wasn't aware that playing a class for a long time has any impact on the viability or enjoyability of the class in the future. You might not like how the new paladin is headed compared to where it was before, however that doesn't mean it won't be viable/enjoyable for some players. Maybe not you, and you're entitled to that opinion. How about new players? How about people who don't mind where it's headed (esp. in comparison to other healers, not limited to but including disc/MW), and are willing to swap classes because they're generally competent on most classes?

I've now explained twice, once in passing and once in detail, my current progression and my decision to start posting in these forums (AKA: very likely maining a holy paladin in WoD), further questions will be ignored.

I understand that my opinions appear to be against the vein of this thread, which is exactly why I posted here, because when everyone agrees, there is zero discussion other than a circlejerk. (Also it was an extremely depressing thread for anyone to read.)

K...
/10char

[Virsta1]

Did all of you guys hate the tier 14 and 15 model of Hpally? Besides losing two cooldowns and finishers having a cast time, it is pretty much the exact same thing. Do the finishers having a cast time really ruin the class that much for you??

I heavily dislike the state of paladins in the current beta. You're not healing the tank, your tank healing is the shitiest. You're not healing the raid, paladin aoe healing is a joke. What you are doing as a paladin is being a parasite. Do you know all that useless dmg that would get healed by passive effects and that none dies from. Well as a paladin you excel at absorbing it.

As i said, I won't fotm play druid on live. But no way playing pala like this.

stop being such a whiner.

[Xs]

Did all of you guys hate the tier 14 and 15 model of Hpally? Besides losing two cooldowns and finishers having a cast time, it is pretty much the exact same thing. Do the finishers having a cast time really ruin the class that much for you??

The point is that with all the movement, it puts Paladins at a significant disadvantage when compared to the other classes, who either have instants to cast in that time, blinks to use, speed ups (yeah we have sprint) or are just plain able to cast on the move.

[Virsta1]

The point is that with all the movement, it puts Paladins at a significant disadvantage when compared to the other classes, who either have instants to cast in that time, blinks to use, speed ups (yeah we have sprint) or are just plain able to cast on the move.

I think class homogenization is a bad design and I actually think it is nice some of the healers are different. classes should offer different playstyles. All it means for paladins is you have to be better at positioning yourself and try to limit your movement as much as possible. I don't think that is to much to ask.

[Gumboy]

Gee I wonder who this new poster is with the snarky signature about getting banned, posting in the exact same manner as the guy that got banned is.

- - - Updated - - -

Did all of you guys hate the tier 14 and 15 model of Hpally? Besides losing two cooldowns and finishers having a cast time, it is pretty much the exact same thing. Do the finishers having a cast time really ruin the class that much for you??



stop being such a whiner.

It is a huge difference. Not sure why you think the spec is exactly the same, that is an incredibly ignorant view to take on it, considering you then list things that changed.

[Xs]

I think class homogenization is a bad design and I actually think it is nice some of the healers are different. classes should offer different playstyles. All it means for paladins is you have to be better at positioning yourself and try to limit your movement as much as possible. I don't think that is to much to ask.

Class homogenization =/= class balance

[Virsta1]

Gee I wonder who this new poster is with the snarky signature about getting banned, posting in the exact same manner as the guy that got banned is.

- - - Updated - - -

Please explain to me what has changed. besides the things I listed and t100 talents.



It is a huge difference. Not sure why you think the spec is exactly the same, that is an incredibly ignorant view to take on it, considering you then list things that changed.

Please explain to me what has changed. besides the things I listed and t100 talents.

Class homogenization =/= class balance

I didn't know they have done the final tuning for all the classes already.

[Freia]

Gee I wonder who this new poster is with the snarky signature about getting banned, posting in the exact same manner as the guy that got banned is.

Virsta is not new and he is not Floopa.

[Diggy]

Also, what's up with monk orbs? Saw this before the raid opened:
http://i.imgur.com/GWelV49.jpg

It's a lvl 100 talent for mistweavers - Path of Mists. Basically it spawns healing orbs as the monk moves. Since they can spawn orbs infinitely, Blizzard should tax their soothing mist ;P

[nightfalls]

Did all of you guys hate the tier 14 and 15 model of Hpally? Besides losing two cooldowns and finishers having a cast time, it is pretty much the exact same thing. Do the finishers having a cast time really ruin the class that much for you??

On most classes with overloaded instants, some instants getting removed is not a big deal. For a class model which already is lacking in instants, removing even a few is a disproportionately greater loss, of course.

Let's not forget that T15 was heavy on crusader strike/melee which we might not be doing. Currently CS is a very low 1800 mana (again), but I can see the mana cost of it going up if it becomes required to be sustainable. Also don't forget that the 4pc (both PvP and PvE) back then meant a lot less casting for generators won't be there. So even not looking at finishers, it's much more casting than T14/T15 model. And as I recall, T14 paladin was rated to be rather mediocre without either 4 set bonus (abusing the 4 piece with DP or getting the PvE 4pc).

When I did T15 progress I had just started my character (reroll) and didn't have the 4pc. While I was able to be relatively competitive though not top parsing initially, it was a struggle compared to what others could do (with 4pc) due to having to cast and being unable to move so much (also the mana!). It was definitely a good if difficult spot with movement, and T17 is much, much worse than what I had.

If all healers have their mobility at similar level, OR if movement is never a big deal in a fight, then obviously things won't matter (if it's the latter chances are like before the mobile class will be the ones that suck). Doesn't seem like that's what's going live though.

===

@ mcbubble, I appreciate your passion for the class, I really do, but non-constructive attacks on others isn't helping anything or anyone. Please don't sink down to Floopa's level.

Edited: And not just at you, but at some others too.

===

@ others, P.S: I've always said I think other healers may have too little mobility too, so it's not just a comparative criticism. But for class balance obviously what matters is relative mobility. And if everyone has very little mobility, that tends to make the little bit of mobility on the "better" classes that much more relatively valuable.

[xiloclipse]

I think class homogenization is a bad design and I actually think it is nice some of the healers are different. classes should offer different playstyles. All it means for paladins is you have to be better at positioning yourself and try to limit your movement as much as possible. I don't think that is to much to ask.

I think it would be different if hpally was clunky AND had killer heals. Then it would just be annoying to play. As it stands, that isn't really the case. I didn't have much time to test today, but the logs I saw had a druid doing pretty well, as I'd expect.

The point that others are making is that, unless hpally can stand strong enough as a class, you'll just bring other healers. Although druids will come down in the next pass, I find it hard to believe they won't be incredibly strong come live. At the moment, you could bring a couple of druids, a couple of the right tanks, and forget the rest.

As far as hpally CDs, I've never experienced a time in SoO where CDs could just carry damage. They're effective, but it's not tranq, you can't pop everything and save the raid in a couple seconds, you just can't heal enough people fast enough.

I think another important thing to remember, is that in comparing classes, all other things, like skill, have to be close to equal. Having a couple meters where you aren't on the bottom on X class isn't the most useful data. Similarly I wouldn't expect that others on here are simply misunderstanding the class, or failing to adjust to the changes, and performing poorly as a result.

Hpally is a good example of a class that got fixed "just enough" for 25m in SoO, that a highly skilled player would still warrant a raid spot, despite deficiencies. The concern people have now, is that there has been no blue talk about hpallies, and if they went live tomorrow as it is, a highly skilled player would sit for another class (or just swap).

Finally, after reading bouch's latest over on his site http://holybouch.com/ , I think there are some cool ideas. It highlights that there are 2 things missing for hpally atm, it isn't just that the numbers aren't there, but the dynamic is missing too.

The talent choices, as many have stated are a joke. There really isn't a choice. The only reason anyone picked up SH this tier was because mastery/absorbs (from disc too) became so out of control with gear, that it was the best way to put up numbers and snipe.

I like the idea of some sort of synergy between finishers, and bouch's idea seems better than whatever devs are trying to do with the 2/4set (free procs with a cast time isn't really dynamic).

I also like the idea of creating 3 different WoG/EF finishers. It would be nice to have some talents to choose from. The only time I really swap a talent now in MoP is if I need to grab extra sacs/bops. I was surprised you not to see a stab taken at lvl 100 talents, but hey it's early. One issue I can see with lvl 100's, is that if HP building off rad is done due to mana cost, double beacon is mandatory to get HP from holy light, plus the other talents suck...

Anyways, maybe devs will pull some a rabbit out of a hat, but at this point I'm just hoping for a t16 style, "hey it's not as broken as it was" fix.

Regardless, thanks bouchbagget for an interesting read. Maybe it'll spark someone's imagination over in Irvine.

[Deleted]

I also like the idea of creating 3 different WoG/EF finishers. It would be nice to have some talents to choose from. The only time I really swap a talent now in MoP is if I need to grab extra sacs/bops. I was surprised you not to see a stab taken at lvl 100 talents, but hey it's early. One issue I can see with lvl 100's, is that if HP building off rad is done due to mana cost, double beacon is mandatory to get HP from holy light, plus the other talents suck...

A tier 45 talent revamp is really unlikely to change that way, because you have to remember that there are 2 other specs in the paladin class. We should at least be happy that there is 1 talent that is good for us. Do you think rets would be happy when their only real heal (with no cast) would require them to spend HP? I don't think so. You can't just change something without thinking about the others affected by the change. I don't really think you could split the talent tree either (like at the 100 talents), because then everyone else would want that too.

What I would like to see, is a more dynamic relationship between WoG/EF and LoD. Every WoG/EF you use gives you a stack of a buff, that makes your LoD put a 6 sec x% hot on every target it hit, stacking up to x times and every LoD consumes 1 stack. If there are no EF buffs up, LoD creastes a buff, also stacking up to the same number, that makes the WoG/EF initial hit, heal up to 5 nearby allies for y%. I think it would make for a really interesting gameplay, that would also increase the skill cap by a bit. Also, they could make our mastery be the x% of the AoE/HoT heal, as our current mastery is really lackluster and will always be our main stat, unless it's nerfed to the ground.