Mentally Reprogramming Criminals, is it ethical to FORCE them to undergo it?

[Deleted]

Considering we already kill people and lock them up for life, and obviously consent is not part of that - making it safer for society is, I would have thought that this is a far better alternative, both for the criminal and for society. The way I see it is you're taking away their freedom regardless, and it's not a nice choice, but it's a necessary choice to keep society safe.

Take away their mental freedom or their physical freedom, considering taking away their mental freedom merely allows them to live out the lives that the majority of people in the world do and since they are changed, they won't even miss what was taken away, and taking away physical freedom locks them in a box, which usually degrades them mentally anyway whilst they basically just sit and rot whilst missing out on life, at the countries expense... changing their brain patterns would seem like the lesser of two necessary evils to me by far.

[inboundpaper]

The short answer is no.

[Mongo42]

Violent criminals should be executed. Keeping them locked up is less "humane" than simply killing them.

Atheists should accept this as part of "natural selection".

Don't give me Christian/Jewish/Muslim arguments against executing prisoners. "Thou shalt not kill" is a mistranslation. It actually said "Thou shalt not murder". "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone" is contradicted by Jesus flipping tables and chasing people around with a whip yelling "You have turned my father's house into a den of thieves!". In the book of Revelations, Jesus doesn't come back to give everybody a big hug. He comes back to lead an army that kills the people who stand against God.

These idealistic teenage atheists should at least read the book of Revelations. It's good stuff and completely contradicts the "Epicurean Paradox" and the typical atheist view of Christianity. Muslims aren't the only ones who have no problem at all with executing violent criminals.

[Deleted]

Wasn't this already conducted in the 60s and 70s ( maybe even up until the late 80's ) with absolute catastrophic results?
And what's the deal with the obsession of controlling other's people minds? Is it the new fad of the year or something?

"He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone" is contradicted by Jesus flipping tables and chasing people around with a whip yelling "You have turned my father's house into a den of thieves!"..

Yea dude, you're totally right. Flipping tables is a criminal offense of the highest degree.

[Deleted]

I'll never really be bothered if they reprogram humans to only be happy even if they take away freedom. If they reprogram us to just live for the purpose of living then I could see some issues.

[Thage]

Only if it's voluntary, the individual is considered of sound mind (i.e., not significantly deranged or disabled to the point that they're not legally capable of making informed decisions) and the choice is made after being informed of exactly what's going to happen. Otherwise, it's a gross violation of human rights.

[AmericanJustice]

Wasn't this already conducted in the 60s and 70s ( maybe even up until the late 80's ) with absolute catastrophic results?
And what's the deal with the obsession of controlling other's people minds? Is it the new fad of the year or something?


Yea dude, you're totally right. Flipping tables is a criminal offense of the highest degree.

it had a insane level of side effects, generally not effective. if you check out the startrek example, that's what could happen with more direct technologies like nanoprobes. drugs are like a blanket, they go everywhere in your body, it's a chemical, once it's inside you nolonger have control, it goes everywhere in your body, there is no "shut off" option, a nanoprobe you can tell it where to go, what to do. To shut down if when needed.

[Dethh]

Sounds like a Clockwork Orange.

[Rabian]

I would propose it in this way: criminals in prison for heinous violent crimes have the option of having this surgery done, and having it done will drastically reduce their sentence. If we set aside the slippery slope argument and focus ONLY on criminals who are beyond any sort of rehab, yes I think it is a good idea for this subset of the population.

[Dethh]

I would propose it in this way: criminals in prison for heinous violent crimes have the option of having this surgery done, and having it done will drastically reduce their sentence. If we set aside the slippery slope argument and focus ONLY on criminals who are beyond any sort of rehab, yes I think it is a good idea for this subset of the population.

Sounds expensive. Is the tax payer footing the bill? I would rather see the criminally insane executed then pay for surgery. Personal opinion of course.

[Rabian]

Sounds expensive. Is the tax payer footing the bill? I would rather see the criminally insane executed then pay for surgery. Personal opinion of course.

It is easy to say that for those you have no emotional connection to, but if it was your child in prison, would you say "just kill them" or would you want them turned into a happy healthy member of society?

[Dethh]

It is easy to say that for those you have no emotional connection to, but if it was your child in prison, would you say "just kill them".

If my child was criminally insane and did something terrible like killing people or what have you then yes I would support execution. I am not going to let my child be a guinea pig and risk him doing it all over again.

[AmericanJustice]

Sounds expensive. Is the tax payer footing the bill? I would rather see the criminally insane executed then pay for surgery. Personal opinion of course.

Unfortunately we have no real cheap options, life sentences costs over 700,000 dollars, death penalty cases, because death is such a final sentence, we have no clue what happens after death, they will use everything in their might to fight the DP, and it has an average cost of 1.3 million per case. Such a surgery probably won't exceed 700,000. The average cost to brain surgery in the US is about 60k dollars over 8.5 hours.

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If my child was criminally insane and did something terrible like killing people or what have you then yes I would support execution. I am not going to let my child be a guinea pig and risk him doing it all over again.

Harsh. But this is a scenario we are assuming we already figured out the brain, there have already been trials done and they were proven safe. Safe at the level at which we understand exactly what parts are responsible for murder and how to fix it.

[Pull My Finger]

Nah, lame idea. It's basically a whole worldview that's totally based on fear. That's not the world I live in.

Also, it doesn't work that way. People like to believe this, but the human mind is NOT a computer and does not function like one. You can't just disable stuff you don't like and think that everything else stays unchanged and intact.

Also, people have been tampering with such ideas. Never turned out well.

[Dezerte]

It's certainly more ethical than execution or imprisonment, but I'd say it would still need to be voluntary. But I wonder who wouldn't want to go through with the rehabilitation? And I imagine those who wouldn't want to may be too dangerous to release into society anyway. So the options would most likely be a) rehabilitation or b) life in prison. But then again, if b) is chosen we'd be holding them against their will anyway so..

[AmericanJustice]

Nah, lame idea. It's basically a whole worldview that's totally based on fear. That's not the world I live in.

Also, it doesn't work that way. People like to believe this, but the human mind is NOT a computer and does not function like one. You can't just disable stuff you don't like and think that everything else stays unchanged and intact.

Also, people have been tampering with such ideas. Never turned out well.

that's because we don't know enough about the brain to opporate safely with things at this level, we do not have precision tools like star trek nano probes to do this accurately. We have yet to fully reverse-engineer the human brain. we are exactly turning something "off" more like we are just changing it. Neural rewiring with the use of nanoprobes.

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It's certainly more ethical than execution or imprisonment, but I'd say it would still need to be voluntary. But I wonder who wouldn't want to go through with the rehabilitation? And I imagine those who wouldn't want to may be too dangerous to release into society anyway. So the options would most likely be a) rehabilitation or b) life in prison. But then again, if b) is chosen we'd be holding them against their will anyway so..

Someone like Aders Beverik would decline this kind of rehabilitation, because he thinks he is a hero and is actually brazen about it. This is why he will spend life imprison regardless on whether or not nanoprobe rehabilitation becomes a reality or not for norway murderers. I doubt the officials will force him to take it, their standards appear to be the criminal must volunteer for rehabilitation.

[Lamoot]

They're criminals, who gives a shit. At least 75% of them are going to end up back in jail within a year of being released anyway.

[Spraxle]

The problem with 'great ideas' like this is their use outside of the initial intended use. Once you've set up your lobotomy camps for inmates then who's next? People don't like to admit it, but they would start using this on other groups. Don't like the 'thug' culture? Well you can now round them up and make them all nice and tame! A group of people believes differently then you politically? Get the vans ready for a road trip because you just doubled your follower base!

They're criminals, who gives a shit. At least 75% of them are going to end up back in jail within a year of being released anyway.

And that's more a failure of society then anything. Instead of actual rehabilitation for inmates we stack the deck against them so they can never get past being an inmate. Even the places that do work training do a piss poor job teaching skills that won't find them real work.

[Crawclaw]

They'd always say no because they're crazy. Make it mandatory. It'll decrease crime a lot.

[Calfredd]

They'd always say no because they're crazy. Make it mandatory. It'll decrease crime a lot.

You are aware that the OP said "Take the surgery or stay in solitary confinement for until you say yes" right? Plus I'd say no because I don't want doctors screwing with my brain unless I was gonna die from a tumor or something.