Putin puts troops in western Russia on alert in drill 1.1

[fumblz]

Every month that passes by in this crisis and that government would only make things worse. Don't know if you followed the g20 but Europe really isn't in the mood to fix up Ukraine's problems.
I'm sure someone will do it. Pretty sure it won't be the USA. They just create issues, they don't fix them

Of course Ukraine didn't receive the money since right after that decision maidan happened.

So what your saying is: you don't know. You don't know what is going to happen because there is 6 months before they have to choose what course they have to take. To claim something without knowing makes you a fool.

So what your saying is that Russia did not give any aid to Ukraine, but US/EU did. gotcha.

[Deleted]

So what your saying is: you don't know. You don't know what is going to happen because there is 6 months before they have to choose what course they have to take. To claim something without knowing makes you a fool.

So what your saying is that Russia did not give any aid to Ukraine, but US/EU did. gotcha.

I.... I don't think I can comment on this post.
Please someone take over for me.

[burek]

So what your saying is: you don't know. You don't know what is going to happen because there is 6 months before they have to choose what course they have to take. To claim something without knowing makes you a fool.

So what your saying is that Russia did not give any aid to Ukraine, but US/EU did. gotcha.

us/eu supported the coup to prevent russias aid. gotcha

[fumblz]

us/eu supported the coup to prevent russias aid. gotcha

That's one hell of an assumption. You do have a source(s) to back that up correct?

[Rukentuts]

That's one hell of an assumption. You do have a source(s) to back that up correct?

Youtube, Russian state media, and conspiracy sites no doubt.

[fumblz]

Youtube, Russian state media, and conspiracy sites no doubt.

Always seems to be the case.


I mean when there is evidence like this, it's hard not to trust youtube as a source of valid news!

[Deleted]

Fumblz...
Here you have a country that is 15+ billions deep in debt, still struggling to get out of a civil war they wanted so much, with social and political instability, and you don't know what's going to happen to them in six months?
It's going to be shit for them in 6 months. That's what's going to happen.
If they default=shit
If they get money from imf=shit

Economics isn't a football match that "you don't know what's going to happen". It's mathematics, for the love of god.

And yes, since there was a revolution and coup that changed the system and QUICKLY signed the eu agreement afterwards, Russia didn't give them 15 billions...

I don't know fumblz. Sometimes I think you write just for the sake of it.

[Shalcker]

Every month that passes by in this crisis and that government would only make things worse. Don't know if you followed the g20 but Europe really isn't in the mood to fix up Ukraine's problems.
I'm sure someone will do it. Pretty sure it won't be the USA. They just create issues, they don't fix them
Of course Ukraine didn't receive the money since right after that decision maidan happened.

They got first 3 billion tranche, and they would even get second one if they bothered to apply for it on schedule...
But they were too busy "winning" after ousting Yanukovich.

[Deleted]

They got first 3 billion tranche, and they would even get second one if they bothered to apply for it on schedule...
But they were too busy "winning" after ousting Yanukovich.

Oh...lol...they got the first 3 billions? From Russia?

[fumblz]

Fumblz...
Here you have a country that is 15+ billions deep in debt, still struggling to get out of a civil war they wanted so much, with social and political instability, and you don't know what's going to happen to them in six months?
It's going to be shit for them in 6 months. That's what's going to happen.
If they default=shit
If they get money from imf=shit

Economics isn't a football match that "you don't know what's going to happen". It's mathematics, for the love of god.

And yes, since there was a revolution and coup that changed the system and QUICKLY signed the eu agreement afterwards, Russia didn't give them 15 billions...

I don't know fumblz. Sometimes I think you write just for the sake of it.

Djalil...

There is still 6 months left before that happens. You can guess what will happen, but you cannot predict what will happen. That's what im trying to say. Wait till it happens or at least for an official response before you start playing the doom and gloom card. You cannot predict with 100% certainty that they wont receive any further help.

[Shalcker]

Oh...lol...they got the first 3 billions? From Russia?

24 Dec 2013: Ukraine receives first tranche of Russian bailout

[Deleted]

Djalil...

There is still 6 months left before that happens. You can guess what will happen, but you cannot predict what will happen. That's what im trying to say. Wait till it happens or at least for an official response before you start playing the doom and gloom card. You cannot predict with 100% certainty that they wont receive any further help.

And you think whichever entity is going to lend them 15 BILLIONS is not going to ask for strict measures to make sure they get the money back?

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24 Dec 2013: Ukraine receives first tranche of Russian bailout

Oh my jesus.

there's your answer fumblz. Apparently Russia gave Ukraine much more than all of us combined abahah

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Just in case. Strict measures means cuts on everything. Services, pensions, wages, etc etc etc.
Aka=deep shit

[fumblz]

And you think whichever entity is going to lend them 15 BILLIONS is not going to ask for strict measures to make sure they get the money back?

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Oh my jesus.

there's your answer fumblz. Apparently Russia gave Ukraine much more than all of us combined abahah

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Just in case. Strict measures means cuts on everything. Services, pensions, wages, etc etc etc.
Aka=deep shit

I understood what strict measures implied, but strict measures are better than defaulting.
US/EU gave 2.18 billion dollars worth of aid to Ukraine.

Russia gave 822 million (im sure this would fit your ideal of copper change btw) more than the US/EU. However, they also annexed Crimea, started a war within Ukraine and supplied the separatists they were fighting against causing thousands of lives in the process.

Which is the better deal?

Would also like to point out that Ukraine needs 10.82 billion to avoid defaulting.

[Shalcker]

I understood what strict measures implied, but strict measures are better than defaulting.
US/EU gave 2.18 billion dollars worth of aid to Ukraine.
Russia gave 822 million (im sure this would fit your ideal of copper change btw) more than the US/EU. However, they also annexed Crimea, started a war within Ukraine and supplied the separatists they were fighting against causing thousands of lives in the process.
Which is the better deal?

And all of that because they believed and said to their people that they'll get a better deal from US/EU, so they have to stay strong and reject all and any Russian offers!
...clearly that didn't happened, and now they are forced to accept Russian offers anyway, and in a lot worse bargaining position...

[fumblz]

And all of that because they believed and said to their people that they'll get a better deal from US/EU, so they have to stay strong and reject all and any Russian offers!
...clearly that didn't happened, and now they are forced to accept Russian offers anyway, and in a lot worse bargaining position...

Not only is the first part a bastardization of what really happened, but the latter has not happened.

[Deleted]

I understood what strict measures implied, but strict measures are better than defaulting.
US/EU gave 2.18 billion dollars worth of aid to Ukraine.

Russia gave 822 million (im sure this would fit your ideal of copper change btw) more than the US/EU. However, they also annexed Crimea, started a war within Ukraine and supplied the separatists they were fighting against causing thousands of lives in the process.

Which is the better deal?

Would also like to point out that Ukraine needs 10.82 billion to avoid defaulting.

Ok. I'll give you an example of what strict measures of THAT degree bring.
Do you remember Greece collapsing? Good. They voted an extreme right wing party in power as an answer to cuts. This is in Greece.
What do you think will happen in Ukraine, a country not in Europe so not affected by political influence like Greece, with already EXTREMELY wobbly social and political balance, when the people are told they have to start SAVING 2 billions a year for the next 5 years?
So no, in a twisted kind of way, defaulting would be the lesser evil. Everything up for sale.

Russia gave Ukraine the first 3 billions according to that Reuters article.

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Not only is the first part a bastardization of what really happened, but the latter has not happened.

No that's exactly what happened. They were told that the EU agreement would fix things. It won't. Problem with Ukraine politics is internal. The place is a mess. Corruption has rooted all the way down in society. And not just yanukovich mind you, the last 25 years have been a continuous fall towards this exact situation.

It is a very real possibility that Ukraine will start trading again with Russia considering that in order to trade with EU they have to upgrade their own industries to European standards, something I'm pretty sure it's down the list of priorities as per today.
Europe is not in a good state either. Not sure we can afford to give away billions as they are. Economy is slowing, thanks to the wonderful little spot we carved for ourselves, and the ones that have cash are up east.

[fumblz]

Ok. I'll give you an example of what strict measures of THAT degree bring.
Do you remember Greece collapsing? Good. They voted an extreme right wing party in power as an answer to cuts. This is in Greece.
What do you think will happen in Ukraine, a country not in Europe so not affected by political influence like Greece, with already EXTREMELY wobbly social and political balance, when the people are to they have to start SAVING 2 billions a year for the next 5 years?
So no, in a twisted kind of way, defaulting would be the lesser evil. Everything up for sale.

Russia gave Ukraine the first 3 billions according to that Reuters article.

I wasn't disputing the 3 billion from russia. I said they gave 822 million more (3 billion minus 2.18 billion = 822 million) than the US/EU combined. They also gave Ukraine a war and annexed a part of Ukraine, and killed thousands in the process.

Im sure Ukrainians know they have a rough future ahead of them. I however, seriously doubt another "civil war" will happen. At worst, they elect some right wingers into office.

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Im wrong

No.

Yanukovych could make a long-term, initially painful deal with the EU to bolster integration and trade, or he could take a $15billion loan from Russia and move his country toward a planned "Eurasian Union", with Belarus, Kazakhstan and Russia. After months of waffling, Yanukovych, who was ousted from office over corruption and has a long history with Putin, chose the money.

The decision sparked protests on Kiev's Independence Square, aka the Maidan, and after Yanukovych tried to quash them and assert control, protesters fortified, literally.

That's how it started.

[Deleted]

I wasn't disputing the 3 billion from russia. I said they gave 822 million more (3 billion minus 2.18 billion = 822 million) than the US/EU combined. They also gave Ukraine a war and annexed a part of Ukraine, and killed thousands in the process.

Im sure Ukrainians know they have a rough future ahead of them. I however, seriously doubt another "civil war" will happen. At worst, they elect some right wingers into office.

Russia didn't support maidan blindly. They didn't close an eye when they were throwing molotovs. Russia didn't say "fuck the eu" while deciding who's opposition leader was more profitable to carry on forward.
We, the West, have AS MUCH to recriminate as russia has with what happened to Ukraine.
A proxy war just to give russia another jab, while Europe silently follow and keeps digging its own grave.
Did you know about the monetary support given to maidan for example? Did you know that one of the requisites for the eu deal was for timoshenko to be released?

So don't go all "russia bad aaaargh" on us man. Ukraine got USED by FOREIGN POWERS. Both russia and USA had their way with them.


Some right wing party in Ukraine, like svoboda or the right sector, well forged after months of civil war and after having tasted power... sounds terrifying.

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I wasn't disputing the 3 billion from russia. I said they gave 822 million more (3 billion minus 2.18 billion = 822 million) than the US/EU combined. They also gave Ukraine a war and annexed a part of Ukraine, and killed thousands in the process.

Im sure Ukrainians know they have a rough future ahead of them. I however, seriously doubt another "civil war" will happen. At worst, they elect some right wingers into office.

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No.

Yanukovych could make a long-term, initially painful deal with the EU to bolster integration and trade, or he could take a $15billion loan from Russia and move his country toward a planned "Eurasian Union", with Belarus, Kazakhstan and Russia. After months of waffling, Yanukovych, who was ousted from office over corruption and has a long history with Putin, chose the money.

The decision sparked protests on Kiev's Independence Square, aka the Maidan, and after Yanukovych tried to quash them and assert control, protesters fortified, literally.

That's how it started.

Where's the difference with what I said?
Why did maidan begin?

[fumblz]

Russia didn't support maidan blindly. They didn't close an eye when they were throwing molotovs. Russia didn't say "fuck the eu" while deciding who's opposition leader was more profitable to carry on forward.
We, the West, have AS MUCH to recriminate as russia has with what happened to Ukraine.
A proxy war just to give russia another jab, while Europe silently follow and keeps digging its own grave.
Did you know about the monetary support given to maidan for example? Did you know that one of the requisites for the eu deal was for timoshenko to be released?

So don't go all "russia bad aaaargh" on us man. Ukraine got USED by FOREIGN POWERS. Both russia and USA had their way with them.

Some right wing party in Ukraine, like svoboda or the right sector, well forged after months of civil war and after having tasted power... sounds terrifying.

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Where's the difference with what I said?
Why did maidan begin?

We do not share the same amount of blame as Russia. That is asinine to claim the the west does. We did not annex the territory of Ukraine, supply or fight with either side (beyond non-lethal aid). We may have supported Maidan, but Maidan was created by the will of the people.

Tymoshenko was jailed after what the US and EU members called a trial with "selective justice".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko

The trial against Tymoshenko has been referred to as "selective justice" and "political persecution" in statements by the U.S.A, Russia, United Kingdom, Germany, Italy, Spain and other European countries; in statements by the European Union, NATO, the European People's Party; and in statements by human rights organizations such as Transparency International, Freedom House, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.[306] Following her conviction, Tymoshenko remained under criminal investigation for ten criminal acts;[296] Ukrainian prosecutors have claimed Tymoshenko committed even more criminal acts.

So they believe her trial was unjust and wanted her freed.

What I had posted was the actual beginning to the entire crisis in Ukraine. Yours was a personal opinion of the matter.

[ringpriest]

Russia didn't support maidan blindly. They didn't close an eye when they were throwing molotovs. Russia didn't say "fuck the eu" while deciding who's opposition leader was more profitable to carry on forward.
We, the West, have AS MUCH to recriminate as russia has with what happened to Ukraine.
A proxy war just to give russia another jab, while Europe silently follow and keeps digging its own grave.
Did you know about the monetary support given to maidan for example? Did you know that one of the requisites for the eu deal was for timoshenko to be released?

So don't go all "russia bad aaaargh" on us man. Ukraine got USED by FOREIGN POWERS. Both russia and USA had their way with them.


Some right wing party in Ukraine, like svoboda or the right sector, well forged after months of civil war and after having tasted power... sounds terrifying.

Which, sadly, doesn't matter. Those in power in the West (which, lets be honest, really just means "the US government, those who influence it, and those who do what it wants") will, through a combination of willful ignorance of reality and a near-perfect echo-chamber of "information", aided and abetted by a largely deluded public, believe only the version of reality they want to believe, and ignore everything else. When ignorance becomes impossible, either because of excessive cognitive dissonance and/or blowback, they will either try to re-write reality again while doing the exact same things (otherwise defined as insanity) like in the Middle East or the Philippines, or just keep on ignoring their failed script for reality and focus attention elsewhere, such as has recently happened with the Ukraine once the government in Kiev failed to "win" on script.