People charging pedigree prices for mongrel dogs

[Laraven]

i totally disagree with the bolded parts. How dare you do that to those poor pups. And dopperman hav been the breed of dog i've been raised with. as a family pet 4 generations being breed and loved. Yet how dare you!. i want to know where in the world those acts are still legal because it should hav been removed long ago.

I'm in the USA, were it is still legal (and should be) and have shown and bred the doberman for 13 years. I could care less your opinion on the matter, I go by a set of rules that I must follow as a responsible breeder. I also have the puppies cropped myself, I don't leave the new owners with the responsibility of trying to take care of the ears and post them. I do all this BEFORE sending a puppy into a new home.

Unless you have ever had a puppy cropped, or seen it done, or taken care of a pup post crop, how dare you talk about something you know nothing about? How do you feel about spay/neutering? Do you believe a major surgery like spaying is less invasive then ear cropping? And don't tell me it's purely cosmetic, because it's not. I import/show/breed working dogs, not family pets! There is a need for both docking and cropping as well as dew claw removal in working dobermans. And either way, The breed standard is set, and I will strive to follow that.

Ears:

Ears normally cropped and carried erect. The upper attachment of the ear, when held erect, is on a level with the top of the skull.

http://dpca.org/JEC/illustrated_standard-ntb.htm

How dare I breed correctly...

[Maltah]

And either way, The breed standard is set, and I will strive to follow that.

Because heaven forbid you fight against a breed standard, right? I'm sure the English Bulldog breeders are saying the same thing, and I don't know how anyone could honestly say that those poor dogs, being bred to their standards, are in good shape. If you feel your breed's standards are acceptable, that's fine, but at what point does the real health of the animal factor in? I think you lucked out with a healthier breed overall, but some standards are ruining the dogs beyond repair.

[Laraven]

Because heaven forbid you fight against a breed standard, right? I'm sure the English Bulldog breeders are saying the same thing, and I don't know how anyone could honestly say that those poor dogs, being bred to their standards, are in good shape. If you feel your breed's standards are acceptable, that's fine, but at what point does the real health of the animal factor in? I think you lucked out with a healthier breed overall, but some standards are ruining the dogs beyond repair.

I'm not a club member, nor do I wish to be. As I said earlier too many politics. I do this because I love dobermans. I love animals period. Do you really think I would put a puppy through cropping if it was so terrible? It's not. Bad things happen when inexperienced owners are left to do it on their own. Other then that the puppy comes out of surgery playful and happy just as it went in.

There is no "healthier" breed. All breeds have issues. And for the record I agree with you on the English Bulldog. It's hard not to when the breed can't even mate or give birth without human intervention. But I think for the most part the breed clubs try to do the best for the dogs. Like I said earlier, they are run by a "clicky" group of elders who think they know everything and frown on any newcomers. I hope to see this change in years to come, but I won't hold my breath.

Puppies 2 days after ear cropping.



Puppies one day after tail docking.

[Queen of Hamsters]

What I wonder is, why are dogs unable to function for work in the US unless they're cut into but in other countries they work just fine without being cut into early on...? Schutz, police work, obedience, tracking, hunting...you name it, we have intact dogs of breeds that used to be cropped working just fine without injuries.

[Maltah]

I'm not a club member, nor do I wish to be. As I said earlier too many politics. I do this because I love dobermans. I love animals period. Do you really think I would put a puppy through cropping if it was so terrible? It's not. Bad things happen when inexperienced owners are left to do it on their own. Other then that the puppy comes out of surgery playful and happy just as it went in.

I could argue for stronger restrictions on who can do it... breeder has to be licensed for working dogs with some proof of said work or some such. But that'll come after people realize the outright bans aren't working, I'd wager.

There is no "healthier" breed. All breeds have issues.

Well, you could argue that your breed is less likely to die from heat stroke walking across the street.

What I wonder is, why are dogs unable to function for work in the US unless they're cut into but in other countries they work just fine without being cut into early on...?

Is that true for all working breeds? I was under the impression that hunting terriers still did it for the sake of saving broken tails.

[bergmann620]

You might want to look up hybrid vigor and the definitions of line breeding and inbreeding.

So, I'm guessing you don't understand basic genetics? Or are you just using personal definitions?

You also need to familiarize yourself with the definition of responsible breeders practices. You won't fall into that category. Your breeding of mixes for eye color and charging a premium for it being the biggest red flag.

Where did I say that I was breeding for eye color? We have 1-2 pups that have blue or mixed eyes per litter. Yes, we charge a premium, but that is only because they have a much higher demand. It would be stupid not to.

BYB like you are the reason so many dogs are given up to shelters. Not a real breeder who does health testing, maintains records, has a contract guaranteeing health and will take the animal back at any time for any reason. They barely break even charging the prices they charge - most lose money. Health testing and vet care cost a fortune.

Actually, people being irresponsible are the reason dogs are in shelters.

We do background checks, require multiple visits, and have contracts that require spay/neuter and that any animals that can no longer be cared for are returned to us.

Further, 'real breeders' have done more damage to more dogs (and will continue to far into the foreseeable future) than I/we ever could, even if we were guilty of what you'd accuse me of.

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$300 per pup huh? And you breed them why?

Almost exclusively for friends/family.

@$300 per you would lose tons of money (if you did the necessary things needed for the dam and litter.)

Not tons, but we do lose a bit on average.

And I assume the parents were health tested? And are those blue eyes? Not even Siberian Husky or Malamute breeders breed for blue eyes. There is a reason.

Yes, and yes (one has 2 blue, the other one blue/brown). And no- we don't breed for eye color- our husky has amber eyes.

[truckboattruck]

they are free to charge whatever they want
just as you are free to refuse such a purchase

[bergmann620]

What I wonder is, why are dogs unable to function for work in the US unless they're cut into but in other countries they work just fine without being cut into early on...? Schutz, police work, obedience, tracking, hunting...you name it, we have intact dogs of breeds that used to be cropped working just fine without injuries.

I'm not sure as far as ear cropping, but we had a pit mix years ago that almost died from a persistent infection that it almost certainly obtained from it's tail being constantly bloodied from wagging it constantly against corners/furniture.

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Is that true for all working breeds? I was under the impression that hunting terriers still did it for the sake of saving broken tails.

I have definitely seen the benefit of some breeds having docked tails, but the ears are more of a fashion.

[Malachi256]

Hybrid vigor is a myth.

This is a strange statement. Certainly it's true that hybridizing two different varieties/breeds/lineages will not always result in a more fit animal (and even fitness is a relative term, depending on the niche the animal is supposed to fit into...), but in genetics it's virtually a truism that organisms want to have sexual reproduction with other members of their population that are as different from them as possible. It's the main purpose of sexual reproduction in the first place - to produce variation in the offspring. Otherwise we would all just do asexual reproduction exclusively.

The goal should always been to reproduce with an individual as different from you as possible, and any choice to do otherwise should be for a very good reason. Breeding dogs for neoteny is a very good reason to pursue inbreeding/line-breeding, because you don't want your dogs to grow up and attack you or your friends/family. A guard animal, and hunting companion, a pest killer - these are good reasons. Many of the other reasons, however, become more and more tenuous. And they always have a cost.

[Queen of Hamsters]

.

Further, 'real breeders' have done more damage to more dogs (and will continue to far into the foreseeable future) than I/we ever could, even if we were guilty of what

For every real breeder that has been focusing on the wrong thing, there's been at least one focusing on THE RIGHT THING, or trying to, sometimes against the breed club. Now most breed clubs (at least here) have had health programs for many breeds (and even for breeds that weren't having issues) made mandatory which means that real breeders breeding within the breed are doing long-term good and rectifying what breeders of old did in ignorance/out of vanity. Those healthier dogs = what the mixes of the future will have in them.

So yeah, there's more than one side to a coin.

How this looks in the US I can't say though, the dog society and reasoning when it comes to breeding and working dogs over there is entirely alien to me.

[Laraven]

Where did I say that I was breeding for eye color? We have 1-2 pups that have blue or mixed eyes per litter. Yes, we charge a premium, but that is only because they have a much higher demand. It would be stupid not to.

It wouldn't be stupid at all. In fact, charging more for a fault is stupid to me... I don't charge more for "rarer" coat colors like Red, Fawn or Blue.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I'm not sure as far as ear cropping, but we had a pit mix years ago that almost died from a persistent infection that it almost certainly obtained from it's tail being constantly bloodied from wagging it constantly against corners/furniture.

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I have definitely seen the benefit of some breeds having docked tails, but the ears are more of a fashion.

That happens here as well, but not nearly often enough to warrant the dogs having their tails removed at birth out of caution.

[Cerus]

So, I'm guessing you don't understand basic genetics? Or are you just using personal definitions?



Where did I say that I was breeding for eye color? We have 1-2 pups that have blue or mixed eyes per litter. Yes, we charge a premium, but that is only because they have a much higher demand. It would be stupid not to.




Actually, people being irresponsible are the reason dogs are in shelters.

We do background checks, require multiple visits, and have contracts that require spay/neuter and that any animals that can no longer be cared for are returned to us.

Further, 'real breeders' have done more damage to more dogs (and will continue to far into the foreseeable future) than I/we ever could, even if we were guilty of what you'd accuse me of.

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Almost exclusively for friends/family.



Not tons, but we do lose a bit on average.


Yes, and yes (one has 2 blue, the other one blue/brown). And no- we don't breed for eye color- our husky has amber eyes.

You're allowing the breeding of damaging genetic trait - blue eyes. Strike one.
You're deeming it more valuable because you're allowing people to choose a dog based on arbitrary looks. Strike two.
You are losing no money or making some money off such a low asking price which tells anyone that you do no health testing or veterinary care of any kind. You can't charge a few hundred dollars and barely lose money if you're doing health testing and vet care. Strike three.

Buh bye backyard breeder.

PS. A spay/neuter contract isn't the same thing as a health guarantee contract. Not all breeders require alteration. Without breeders there would be no dogs for you to profit off of. Responsible breeders breed to BETTER the breed. Not for profit or anything else. But continue on believing that hybrid vigor is a real thing and all pure breds are inbred.

[Laraven]

I could argue for stronger restrictions on who can do it... breeder has to be licensed for working dogs with some proof of said work or some such. But that'll come after people realize the outright bans aren't working, I'd wager.

I wouldn't disagree with this at all. And I'm not against natural ears and tails for our puppies that are placed into pet homes at request of the new owners. I like both. I was thinking of importing a all natural girl next year since both my girls have been retired. Maybe do some tracking. Maine is desperately in need of a cadaver dog. We have to have them flown in from Mass when needed. That's a lot of work but maybe, hmm....

[Queen of Hamsters]

PS. A spay/neuter contract isn't the same thing as a health guarantee contract. Not all breeders require alteration. Without breeders there would be no dogs for you to profit off of. Responsible breeders breed to BETTER the breed. Not for profit or anything else. But continue on believing that hybrid vigor is a real thing and all pure breds are inbred.

Amen.

All the dogs I've ever owned have had exactly 0.0% inbreeding. Breeding for long-term goals to better the breed > anything in my book. Especially now that the breeding solely for looks-attitude has become taboo in so many areas. The whole package = what counts. Looks (a rottweiler shouldn't look like a pug), mentality ( shouldn't act like a poodle) and health is what is valued by responsible breeders. Even the people breeding purely for work want their dogs to have certain physique and mentality.

No responsible breeder will guarantee healthy pups since anything can happen to any dog of any heritage, but they do their best to avoid breeding unhealthy lines and here there's a contract for protection against hidden faults that spans for 39 months from delivery.

On the other hand I see backyard breeders GUARANTEE a "healthy, long-lived best friend" in their ads on a daily basis during the spring/summer when they start throwing puppies around them. Horrible.

[Maltah]

You might want to look up hybrid vigor and the definitions of line breeding and inbreeding.

Line breeding is still breeding related individuals to each other. It may not be mother/son, but it's still a form of inbreeding. Granted, the distances between relations is an important factor, and some places are actually banning breeding closely related dogs.

. But continue on believing that hybrid vigor is a real thing and all pure breds are inbred.

They actually are. The founding stock of a lot of breeds came from a small group of dogs, with a closed registry. Some breeds have less genetic diversity than others. Some have more diversity than dingos, and some less than pandas. They're like the Romans...

[Laraven]

Line breeding is still breeding related individuals to each other. It may not be mother/son, but it's still a form of inbreeding. Granted, the distances between relations is an important factor, and some places are actually banning breeding closely related dogs.

Sigh, let me give you an example to why line breeding can play an important role in breeding programs...

So with the Doberman there is a bleeding disorder not unlike hemophilia, call Von Willebrands Disease. All breeding dogs are suppose to be checked for this before being bred. DNA tests marks the dog as one of three results. Clear, Carrier or Affected.

vWD status of the litter when Breeding dobermans


Now how would you think it was best to wipe out vWD? Breeding only clear to clear right? Well, we can't because the gene pool would be too small. We are forced to breed to carriers for the most part. (Affected dogs are never bred from.) But when a "healthy" (free of heart issues) clear factor line is found it is used a lot. But breeders only go as far as line breeding. NOT inbreeding. And then those litters are out crossed with other clear lines, and the results of that litter are reintroduced back into the original lines. It's the only way to be rid of vWD. There are just not enough clear dogs unrelated. And breeding carrierxcarrier is not helping anything as the result is always 25% affected puppies. We have to have clear dogs to breed to.

vWD is a major issue in dobermans but not even the most impoprtant. By far the heart problems are the worse, then the "Z" factor dogs.... (Don't get me started on the white doberman breeders...)

[Reinaerd]

mutts have no pedigree, so no way of finding out if there are hereditary diseases at play.
Real fun to attach your heart to muffy the lovable mutt, when 6 months later he has to be put down, because he has severe HD.

Il buy my dog at a registered breeder, with licensed pedigree's who does his or her dna test, and can show me the hip test results of the parent dogs.


Mutts are fine tbh, accidents happen... but breeding them on purpose makes you nothing more then a puppy mill lite.


Like the guy who sells them for a few bucks more cause they have blue eyes.

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Sigh, let me give you an example to why line breeding can play an important role in breeding programs...

So with the Doberman there is a bleeding disorder not unlike hemophilia, call Von Willebrands Disease. All breeding dogs are suppose to be checked for this before being bred. DNA tests marks the dog as one of three results. Clear, Carrier or Affected.

vWD status of the litter when Breeding dobermans


Now how would you think it was best to wipe out vWD? breeding only clear to clear right? Well, we can't because the gene pool would be too small. We are forced to breed to carriers for the most part. (Affected dogs are never bred from.) But when a "healthy" (free of heart issues) clear factor line is found it is used a lot. But breeders only go as far as line breeding. NOT inbreeding. And then those litters are out crossed with other clear lines, and the results of that litter are reintroduced back into the original lines. It's the only way to be rid of vWD. There are just not enough clear dogs unrelated. And breeding carrierxcarrier is not helping anything as the result is always 25% affected puppies. We have to have clear dogs to breed to.

This guy knows his stuff. Ive got a border collie myself, they run DNA tests in belgium for eye diseases.
I spend 2 years on a waiting list with the breeder ive got my dog from, and let me tell you, well worth the wait.


the reason i despise mutt breeders is simple.

when i was 16 i was allowed to get myself a dog, so i went to the pound and saw this german , love at first sight.
a year later she collapsed in front of me vomiting blood, her liver did not function properly.
This caused such a severe epileptic attacked she died there in front of me on the spot.


so yeah fuck the "blue eyes are extra" asshole

[bergmann620]

You're allowing the breeding of damaging genetic trait - blue eyes. Strike one.

Based on that (mis)information, you've pretty much ruled out all husky breeders.

You're deeming it more valuable because you're allowing people to choose a dog based on arbitrary looks. Strike two.

Out of a given litter, there are a few different qualifications for any given pup. They have to be an overall match. As might be said elsewhere on the forums, gameplay is always more important than graphics.

You are losing no money or making some money off such a low asking price which tells anyone that you do no health testing or veterinary care of any kind. You can't charge a few hundred dollars and barely lose money if you're doing health testing and vet care. Strike three.

You are simply guessing here. And badly.

Buh bye backyard breeder.

Call me whatever you want. I don't produce pups that walk like frogs, need human assistance to reproduce, have skulls too small for their brains, or any of the other hallmarks of champions and 'responsible breeders'. I'm fine with that.

PS. A spay/neuter contract isn't the same thing as a health guarantee contract. Not all breeders require alteration. Without breeders there would be no dogs for you to profit off of. Responsible breeders breed to BETTER the breed. Not for profit or anything else. But continue on believing that hybrid vigor is a real thing and all pure breds are inbred.

Thanks for making a whole bunch of generalizations about me from very limited knowledge. I'll take that, along with the straight-up factual inaccuracies you've presented, and write off anything you've got to say from this point on. Have a nice evening =)

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when i was 16 i was allowed to get myself a dog, so i went to the pound and saw this german , love at first sight.
a year later she collapsed in front of me vomiting blood, her liver did not function properly.
This caused such a severe epileptic attacked she died there in front of me on the spot.


so yeah fuck the "blue eyes are extra" asshole

That dog was much more likely to come from a 'responsible purebred breeder' than from someone selling mixes.

[Laraven]

have skulls too small for their brains

Please don't tell me you think this is a Doberman issue? (or a dog issue at all) LOL!!!
It's a myth, Don't be silly.

FYI, responsible Siberian Husky breeders do NOT breed dogs with blue eyes. Please feel free to look up the breed standard yourself, or maybe actully do some research on why blue eyes are a fault before breeding?

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That dog was much more likely to come from a 'responsible purebred breeder' than from someone selling mixes.

I doubt it, because a responsible breeder would write in their contract that the dog could not under any circumstances be surrendered to a shelter, and that in the event that they were no longer able to care for said dog it needs to be returned to the breeder. The breeder would also keep in touch with puppy clients over the years. Not saying it never happens but far less likely then BYB litters for sure. Not to mention purebreds that end up in local shelters almost always are picked up by breed rescues.

The argument is not purebred breeding vs. mutt breeding. People who produce only purebreds can be BYB as well. We are talking about responsible breeders. And purposely breeding mongrels is just not responsible no matter what your reasons are. I hope you rethink what we are telling you and do some research on your own on why it's wrong. I hope that you (like myself long ago) you will see the error of your ways and spay your pretty girl, so she can be a happy pet.