Feminism

[Xada]

So you only believe that there are hyper feminine echo chambers among young girl, but not hyper masculine echo chambers among young boys?

Our minds are our echo chambers. Our last bastion.

[ArmoredDragoon]

Case and point^ Men have such ridiculous standards placed on them by society that we are supposed to somehow transcend humanity to become like superman. Barbie seems a lot more achievable in comparison.

I think a fundamental problem with this (and what feminism takes issue with in general) is that it's actually biologically brought on by themselves. That is, the reason women are insecure about their appearance has nothing to do with Barbie, rather it's a biological instinct that comes from trying to compete with other women for a viable mate.

For women this is more profound than men because it is beneficial for them to have somebody who sticks around rather than just bangs and leaves because they're more vulnerable during pregnancy, in addition to long term maternal instincts being much stronger than paternal instincts.

The only way feminists would ever be satisfied is if they were to change their own biology.

[Deleted]

Does this mean that G.I. Joe indoctrinated young boys to become soldiers?

It 100% has done so.

[Dextroden]

No.

One (the plethora of superheroes that are being stated) is marketed, advertised, and stated clearly as fantasy, redundantly so.
The other is marketed as mimicking real life, advertised that way, and it imposes that notion because it is not presented otherwise.

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Do boys play with Ken dolls, or not?

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You're disregarding the fantasy placed behind such characters, though. Blatantly ignoring the fact that they aren't imposed as reality.

I've seen it. What does that have to do with girls supposedly being the only ones vulnerable to copying toys and boys the only resistant ones?

[nanook12]

No.

One (the plethora of superheroes that are being stated) is marketed, advertised, and stated clearly as fantasy, redundantly so.
The other is marketed as mimicking real life, advertised that way, and it imposes that notion because it is not presented otherwise.

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Do boys play with Ken dolls, or not?

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You're disregarding the fantasy placed behind such characters, though. Blatantly ignoring the fact that they aren't imposed as reality.

Ah I see. What you are saying goes something like this "barbie is a more realist representation of reality; therefore, young girls get hooked into thinking that is how they are supposed to be like much easier. Whereas G.I. Joe is far more unrealistic which is why young boys can easier identify them as fiction."

Yeah, I am not buying that. Children of that age do not have the mental capacity to fully accept what reality is. For the love of Pete some children pretend to be animals and have imaginary for weeks or months at a time, yet you think that they should already posses the ability to perfectly differentiate fantasy from reality? No, the fact is that G.I. Joe is just as realistic for young boys as Barbie is for young girls.

[Xada]

I think a fundamental problem with this (and what feminism takes issue with in general) is that it's actually biologically brought on by themselves. That is, the reason women are insecure about their appearance has nothing to do with Barbie, rather it's a biological instinct that comes from trying to compete with other women for a viable mate.

For women this is more profound than men because it is beneficial for them to have somebody who sticks around rather than just bangs and leaves because they're more vulnerable during pregnancy, in addition to long term maternal instincts being much stronger than paternal instincts.

The only way feminists would ever be satisfied is if they were to change their own biology.

Pfft, we're animals, look at nature to see if animals change themselves to make themselves more desirable. They do it all the fucking time and there's common themes (whether that be shape, color, sound, movement, etc) they employ to attract a mate. The barbie argument assumes this process is dictated by society, it's not, it's commanded by nature.

[Fencers]

1.) Assuming Barbie has a long lasting influence.

2.) Assuming that Human does not have a long lasting influence.

3.) Ignoring very similar current iconic figures that do have more representation as an influence in culture and as an object of social modeling. Back then it was Heman today it is Batman, Superman, or Captain America. Take your pick of which is more achievable.

Barbie's influence is not an assumption. The toy and iconography is still among the most popular, culturally relevant and current. There are still Barbie's being made and they are culturally reflective. Where is the boy's iconography of the similar quantifiable measure in market and culture?

Batman, Superman and Captain America are not even among the most popular representations for boys and young men. They are not even among the most popular toys for boys. They also are not culturally reflective- Barbie is social idealization that is why some had/have a problem with her iconography.

Damn, at least Barbie imposes real ideals of what beauty is. I am supposed to become a super strong space alien, shaped exactly like a man, learn fly, and shoot lasers out of my eyes.

This is exactly why the comparison to Superman is nonsensical. The (perceived) offense or damage Barbie delivers is predicated on Barbie supposes and applies normalcy. Barbie is what a girl is in a contextual "reality" that is culture relevant.

One can't become an alien from Krypton, super solider from the 1940s or time traveling avenger of crime alley. By you own statement you admit the fantasy of it as unreal.

Barbie exists to be real. She's a high powered lawyer with a 6 inch waist and legs that don't quit! She's an on-the-go modern women in her red corvette with perfectly tussled hair and manicure riding down Santa Monica! Etc, etc. These are all real world analogues that Barbie aims to project as ideal behavior, look and attitude for girls.

The most popular boys toys are actually quite healthy and encouraging. As said, I have a son. I spend quite a bit of time in the toy aisle and clothing departments. Boys have a lot of terrific iconography going their way.

According to Forbes, the most popular superhero action figure listed as 'boy toys' from 2014-2015 was the Hulkbuster Iron Man. It was like #40-something in the top 50. The list was dominated by drones, RC cars, science sets, music sets, video games, sports items and so on.

[nanook12]

Wouldn't the word Super in his name imply that he is not your ordinary man? I can't speak for every man but I am pretty sure that flying and shooting laser beams from your eyes has never been something men are supposed to strive for.

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Well, we should stop expecting them to be able to freeze lakes by breathing on them for starters.

Pfft amateur^ I learned to use my laser eyes to start logs in my fire place by the time I was 12, and I formulated a way to fly through my own flatulence by ingesting copious amounts of chili beans. If I had not did these things, then I would not be considered a man by societal standards.

Look I have picture proof!

[Skayth]

Barbie's influence is not an assumption. The toy and iconography is still among the most popular, culturally relevant and current. There are still Barbie's being made and they are culturally reflective. Where is the boy's iconography of the similar quantifiable measure in market and culture?

Batman, Superman and Captain America are not even among the most popular representations for boys and young men. They are not even among the most popular toys for boys. They also are not culturally reflective- Barbie is social idealization that is why some had/have a problem with her iconography.

This is exactly why the comparison to Superman is nonsensical. The (perceived) offense or damage Barbie delivers is predicated on Barbie supposes and applies normalcy. Barbie is what a girl is in a contextual "reality" that is culture relevant.

One can't become an alien from Krypton, super solider from the 1940s or time traveling avenger of crime alley. By you own statement you admit the fantasy of it as unreal.

Barbie exists to be real. She's a high powered lawyer with a 6 inch waist and legs that don't quit! She's an on-the-go modern women in her red corvette with perfectly tussled hair and manicure riding down Santa Monica! Etc, etc. These are all real world analogues that Barbie aims to project as ideal behavior, look and attitude for girls.

The most popular boys toys are actually quite healthy and encouraging. As said, I have a son. I spend quite a bit of time in the toy aisle and clothing departments. Boys have a lot of terrific iconography going their way.

According to Forbes, the most popular superhero action figure listed as 'boy toys' from 2014-2015 was the Hulkbuster Iron Man. It was like #40-something in the top 50. The list was dominated by drones, RC cars, science sets, music sets, video games, sports items and so on.

Really... barbie exists to be real... A doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, professor, super model, Soldier (if i remember correctly of her stint), astronaut, and so on.

Yea.. I knew barbie wasnt realistic by the age of 7.

While, ken is... a stud beef cake... with no purpose in life.

[zorkuus]

Probably.
Although the latter is usually obtained by no longer taking in natural things :P

Then they're anorectic and that isn't really imposed by society.
A woman can be thin and healthy.

[Deleted]

The most popular boys toys are actually quite healthy and encouraging. As said, I have a son. I spend quite a bit of time in the toy aisle and clothing departments. Boys have a lot of terrific iconography going their way.

According to Forbes, the most popular superhero action figure listed as 'boy toys' from 2014-2015 was the Hulkbuster Iron Man. It was like #40-something in the top 50. The list was dominated by drones, RC cars, science sets, music sets, video games, sports items and so on.

I would say there's nothing "healthy and encouraging" in depicting men as extremely muscular, tall and athletic, any more than there is in depicting women with certain attributes. It's just not realistic, and it creates a bunch of self-confidence issues for men. The sad thing is, though, that society does not acknowledge these issues.

[Fencers]

I would say there's nothing "healthy and encouraging" in depicting men as extremely muscular, tall and athletic, any more than there is in depicting women with certain attributes.

I agree. However, the most popular boys toys are not strictly depictions of extremely muscular, tall or athletic men. Many are abstract, highly creative and/or quite broad.

For example, Star Wars toys flood the boys market right now. The majority of the figures and imagery are rendered realistically in a variety of body types, skin tones and so on. Robots/machines of varying kinds are the second most popular iconography among boys.

There is a lot of quality stuff for boys. 'Strong men' are in the minority among boys/young men iconography unless you count sports figures as poor depictions of masculinity.

[nanook12]

I think it's insulting to women saying that they're so stupid that they think they need to look like a doll. That's extremely disrespectful because with the exception of a few nut jobs, no woman is stupid enough to think she needs to look like a piece of plastic.

But it is okay if men are expected to look like a chiseled sculpture?

[Nasuem]

Feminism is a range of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women.
Don't forget that last part.
It means they want women to have the same social rights as men already have.

Well, you should!
Every man should reach for the stars, literally.


Probably.
Although the latter is usually obtained by no longer taking in natural things :P

Don't forget the 'equality' part bozo. That is not what 3rd wave feminism is about, it's about obtaining special class status.

[Deleted]

Feminism is a range of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women.
Don't forget that last part.

yes they wanted the same rights as men.
Of course, they where and are wholly uninterested in the same obligations.

[Super Kami Dende]

As a progressive I do agree with a lot of the points of feminism has; however, they are completely blind to think that women are the only ones that have unfair standards of reality stacked upon them.

Neither sexes do. If you base your reality on the looks of Toys, TV and Videogame characters you are a fucking moron.

[Total Crica]

they are completely blind to think that women are the only ones.

non-asshole feminists dont think this, only asshole feminists do

[Super Kami Dende]

non-asshole feminists dont think this, only asshole feminists do

So the majority then?

[Total Crica]

So the majority then?

i dont know, i have not met the majority, have you?

[Independent voter]

Why not both?