Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[jvbastel]

Well... while the aspect of group building is not that important anymore (and I am thankful for both LFD tool and the automatic matchmaking LFD/LFR), I do communicate in dungeons if the need arises. This could be mana, this could be tactics (explaining bosses and CC in TW), or comforting people who are farming special things so they don't give up (like the TW infinite reaver mount). I don't know what kind of retail WoW you have been playing, but I am communicative in the groups when I feel like it - and I cannot believe that everybody else is different.

Probably you just handicap yourself because you only expect people to be social in Vanilla?

I make it my goal to be very socially engaged in dungeons, it seems a lot of people are not interested in that, though, since there's no point (why would I talk to players I couldn't even meet in the game since they're from another server). I leveled a lot of alts, and every time I create one, I buy/make 4 extra max-slot bags to give to any new players I meet, along with a small amount of gold (don't want to give new players too much gold since it'll probably lessen their first experience with the game). I'm that guy.

I level almost exclusively trough dungeons on retail, and every dungeon (i'm usually tank or healer) I tell people to add me if they want someone to do dungeons with. The amount of people that do has lowered dramatically the last few years. It might be coincidence, but I think it has more to do with the fact that you don't need to know people anymore to do dungeons. You just press a button and you get a queue.

Of course a lot of people like dungeon queues, it makes it super easy to find a group and deals with a lot of the hassle for you. I don't mean to take away from their experience or say that they're wrong or anything. Different things work for different people.

[Kyanion]

At the time of opening, there were so many people in the zone that he couldn't even hand in the quest. Everyone wanted to be there at that time. I call that a server community.

And I call that a clusterfuck of epic proportions. Hence what happened during that event.

[Deleted]

People are social, but the frequency and odds that they will even speak up is much less. I think that was the point he was bringing forth, and I agree with him. There are a lot less situations arising in random groups where people will keep talking. I always say hey and try and talk, but chances are unlike back when people will just ignore you or only say hi back and never speak again.

It's pretty hard to do that when you're fucking up your CC role and causing the group to wipe, you HAVE to talk to at least get the content down. But generally in situations where you pretty much should be reading chat, chances are you are much more prone to talking.

The thing is, most communication in a group comes due to "mechanical" things - things you need to clarify so you can finish the run. There are some exceptions (like chatting about this mount which never drops), but have you really chatted about anything beyond this to some strangers in your runs? I had one encounter with a "marthajones" character, so I knew this is a Whovian and we exchanged some words about the serial, but I could have equally flamed the player because he had chosen this inappropriate character name on a RP server. (Usually, I don't flame though but just report inappropriate names, in this case I did not, because <3 Dr. Who, which is a bit inconsequental - but it seems, people don't care about proper RP names anymore, anyway.)

Private talk is something I want to keep private. And if you are not a RL friend of mine, you will possibly get some smalltalk out of me if the topics suits me (favorite shows, movies, music), but this would be it. And I have not met roleplayers for a long time besides one exception in a TW dungeon.

[Coconut]

-snip-

I might recognize a player if he stands out somehow, good play, nice transmog, interesting name, or he if he's being chatty. But I don't see why I would need to recognize every player I do something with. What if the players I do recognize don't want to do what I want to do, and I need a full group for it?

Again, why are the things on your list necessarily good?

- I actively ask my friends first when I want to do something, and guildies afterwards. This implies whispering or talking in guild chat, I don't like to broadcast stuff on Battletag.
- I talk to my friends every time we do something together, including discussing buffs, asking them if they need flasks, potions, etc.
- As a side note, people ask for food, buffs, mana breaks in LFR and dungeons, but that isn't socializing
- As a mage, I despise having to CC every group of mobs. It's not a challenge, it's just dull. When you have to do it in combat and time it with other parts of the encounter (Scarlet monastery and Siege of Niuzao CMs, for example), it's nice, but debating whether we can pull a trash pack without CC, or bickering about it if the tank pulls to soon or some other CC-er doesn't do it, is something that would absolutely not improve my experience.
- Nothing stops you to talk about gear you want in randomly assigned groups, some people may answer.
- You can troll people with the Infinite Timereaver and LFR pets

Ultimately, it all boils down to what I said before.

Nobody is stopping you from starting a conversation in a random group. You may even connect with someone, and you can ask them to become your battletag friend.

The reason people don't respond very often is that they already have an established social circle, and they are often 25-30 or older, and not looking for more online friends. The only way to change this is to have a newer game, or to be younger yourself and connect with people your age.

A second reason would be that people are trying to be efficient. Sure, I could chat in the dungeon, but then I'd barely do any dps. If I'm the tank or the healer, it's even worse. If you are only there to shoot the shit, you won't feel any pressure, but many people just want the dungeon to be done asap... these people wouldn't become sociable due to Vanilla design, they simply wouldn't play it.

[Kyanion]

I'd call the first part "buying stuff" and the second part "hype".

A sense of community is when people constantly, and often selflessly choose to collaborate and help each other.

The fact that Nihilum did it in one week (inherently screwing over every other guild on the realm) was the opposite of "a sense of community". Others in the community lost the opportunity to get a reward because Nihilum thought only they should be special.

Funny how that works out right? Hell there was someone that transferred to another realm and started the event solo and got the mount for himself if I remember correctly. Has been a LONG damn time since it happened. Went and did a bit of digging and found this thread about it which is quite the amazing read and shows off some of the 'community' that we had in Vanilla.

[Vaelorian]

You know who I do talk to if I am in a dungeon via /w usually...? The player that IS by chance from my own server. Why? Well it is an instant icebreaker isn't it? Hey you are from the same server!! And the other one is like: Oh yeah!! W00t!! And then you go on talking about guilds or something. However if that person is like a total craptard that doesn't know how to play, sooner rather then later I stop talking to this guy. Or if this person speaks with "=D", like stuff I'll let the conversation die aswell. I have no interest in talking to kids.

This has everything to do with how I am and what I expect of friends. So yeah since I am becoming older by the second... my taste in potential friends become more narrow.

[Deleted]

I make it my goal to be very socially engaged in dungeons, it seems a lot of people are not interested in that, though, since there's no point (why would I talk to players I couldn't even meet in the game since they're from another server). I leveled a lot of alts, and every time I create one, I buy/make 4 extra max-slot bags to give to any new players I meet, along with a small amount of gold (don't want to give new players too much gold since it'll probably lessen their first experience with the game). I'm that guy.

I level almost exclusively trough dungeons on retail, and every dungeon (i'm usually tank or healer) I tell people to add me if they want someone to do dungeons with. The amount of people that do has lowered dramatically the last few years. It might be coincidence, but I think it has more to do with the fact that you don't need to know people anymore to do dungeons. You just press a button and you get a queue.

Of course a lot of people like dungeon queues, it makes it super easy to find a group and deals with a lot of the hassle for you. I don't mean to take away from their experience or say that they're wrong or anything. Different things work for different people.

Oh, I would add someone from a dungeon if I see the chance that we would meet again under similar circumstances. The thing is, when I level characters, I do this sporadically, when the mood hits me - at the moment, I work on my personal projects for different characters, or on weekly events - so, even if I add a character while leveling, I don't know if we are in the same level range in the next day. And if I add someone for TW, I don't know if he will be there in the next event - probably, he got all his mounts and will not bother anymore, while I still run these things for the quest chest, for example.

It's difficult to keep in touch with people who share some of your favorite activies, even with a cross-realm FL. (I also work in an advertising agency, which makes scheduled play quite complicated - I already have to juggle 2-3 pen & paper roleplaying groups.)

[jvbastel]

Not to mention that 'event' was a fucking disaster on many realms due to constant crashing, zones loading improperly (boats on land) and other weird fucking things that happened. Some of us couldn't even GET to the zone for this 'amazing community event'. And it is exactly like you said, some person I could give a fuck about got a mount, big woopity do. That event was full of scorn for how shitty it was implemented. Good idea in theory but man did it ever get botched imo. Wasn't quite as bad as the Zombie event with people exploding in towns forcing everyone to hide from the home cities but some of the ideas of the past were questionable.

Of course some of these people such as jvbastel didn't play in Vanilla but they hear the stories and think it went off without a hitch. Does Kern talk about how much of an epic fail that event was for many people?

Yes I didn't play back then.
Yes I know it was a disaster from a technical standpoint.
Yes I know most people didn't get anything from it.

But tell me one thing that has happened in any post-cata expansion that had such an impact on the server community. People didn't gain anything from it, but they still wanted to be there when it happened, so it means they still cared about it.

Also, the pre-wotlk event was amazing. Yes it had its issues but compare it to the last few pre-expansion patch events. I don't even remember half of the WoD pre-patch.

[Deleted]

A good portion of players don't pay with subscriptions, but with game time purchased for money or through tokens. Exit polls aren't held for those players.

Exit polls are only relevant to players who are cancelling their sub, of course. They're used to find out why players are leaving the game. I'm not sure why you bring in active players into this, I'm aware how people pay for their subs. But that's hardly relevant to this discussion?
I'd imagine Blizzard has a pretty good idea why players are leaving currently and why they've left historically due to the long term exit polling. It's valuable data for designers.

As to acting "cocky" or calling it a PR-disaster. That is just your own subjective opinion. You're trying to make it sound like fact, but it's just subjective.
Anecdotally, I thought it was a good comment - but that's just my opinion.
Evidently they sold a lot of copies of the expansion after that statement, so it didn't seem to cause the sky to fall.
The fact that someone dug it up now as some sort of evidence of some argument is not really relevant either. They have a track record of saying no to legacy realms. Everyone knows that.

You claim that this time should be somehow different from the statements they've given in the last 10 years and surely now they've learned from their mistakes. I doubt it is going to change much.

[kamuimac]

http://www.pcinvasion.com/ex-world-o...izzard-vanilla

For those too lazy to read here are some interesting points said by Mark Kern who was one of the bigger names with World of Warcraft when he worked on it:

PCI: Do you think there will be enough support for vanilla servers from the community? There were 800K registered accounts on Nostalrius but only 150,000 active players.

Kern: Let’s put that in perspective. When we planned World of Warcraft, we only expected 1M sold and 500k active. And yet..and yet that was enough to bet the whole company on making WoW. It was the most expensive game Blizzard had ever made, and a huge risk. And yet, we would have been happy with 1M accounts back then. So I don’t understand this talk about 850k account not being worthwhile. That’s bunk. And you know what? With Blizzard officially behind legacy servers, you would see far more than 1M account re-activations. If a relatively unknown private server can reach 850k, then think what putting the Blizzard name behind it could do…far, far more.


PCI: Legacy servers have done well for the likes of Jagex but how much work would this actually be for Blizzard? Thinking about hardware, support, BattleNet compatibility etc. Would it even be possible now the game has moved on?

Kern: As for hardware, I’ll say this…what took hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of gear to host the original WoW servers can now be done for far less. Server hardware is so much better now, storage is so much faster now. We have VMs and cloud servers that can be spun up and down on demand. The Nostralrius servers only cost a few hundred dollars a month to run. Bandwidth is so much cheaper. The hardware is not the issue. Support is not the issue. They have more GMs now than we ever planned for or need for vanilla WoW. They have better tools than when we launched, that’s not a real issue.


I recommend giving the interview a good read. Though then again knowing who I'm talking to, they'll try to tell me their personal opinion means more than a guy who actually dealt with this and sees the validity.

failures who got fired from any company shouldnt speak in that company name.

[Kyanion]

Yes I didn't play back then.
Yes I know it was a disaster from a technical standpoint.
Yes I know most people didn't get anything from it.

But tell me one thing that has happened in any post-cata expansion that had such an impact on the server community. People didn't gain anything from it, but they still wanted to be there when it happened, so it means they still cared about it.

Also, the pre-wotlk event was amazing. Yes it had its issues but compare it to the last few pre-expansion patch events. I don't even remember half of the WoD pre-patch.

Well part of that would be Blizzard moving away from events that would gather everyone in one place to crash the realm. It was a design choice for the sanity of players on large realms that remembered AQ and other events that were large clusterfucks. Yes it is sad that those events didn't work properly and I wish the tech was better so it COULD happen but that wasn't the reality of it. So those events going away for the most part was sadly a good thing.

[PenguinChan]

The thing is, most communication in a group comes due to "mechanical" things - things you need to clarify so you can finish the run. There are some exceptions (like chatting about this mount which never drops), but have you really chatted about anything beyond this to some strangers in your runs? I had one encounter with a "marthajones" character, so I knew this is a Whovian and we exchanged some words about the serial, but I could have equally flamed the player because he had chosen this inappropriate character name on a RP server. (Usually, I don't flame though but just report inappropriate names, in this case I did not, because <3 Dr. Who, which is a bit inconsequental - but it seems, people don't care about proper RP names anymore, anyway.)

Private talk is something I want to keep private. And if you are not a RL friend of mine, you will possibly get some smalltalk out of me if the topics suits me (favorite shows, movies, music), but this would be it. And I have not met roleplayers for a long time besides one exception in a TW dungeon.

A lot of the conversations I have don't even get to the small talk stage, which is sad. And yes, a lot of talk now comes purely down to mechanical if players are terrible, or absolutely new. This is just how the game has evolved since even when the content is relevant, once people get geared it starts to becomes monotone grinding. There really isn't much to think about once you can survive major mechanics in dungeons, or push DPS so fast that it becomes irrelevant. I'm not saying past expansions never got to this point, because they did -- but I don't ever remember anyone face rolling current patch content a week after it was introduced.

So regardless, that's an issue anyone has had since the start. If you don't feel like talking? Well, you're not as social as others and keep to yourself. That's fine -- but my point was that there are a lot of individuals who aren't like you but don't feel the need to talk. Why? Because why bother! I do agree that's an extreme response, but it's honestly not far off to the reasons people bring forth. A lot of people are a lot less social than they used to be just because the nature of gaming today; however I honestly believe people are willing to reach out and have conversations.

But 20 minute runs are not 'conversations'. 60 minute dungeons are, hours of playing together ARE conversations. Dungeons today are nothing but quick grinds where you drop players constantly and move on with a new batch. It's to the point of where if you pay attention, you sometimes run into THE SAME EXACT PEOPLE who just quit after the dungeon ended. This is so common it hurts -- why even bother doing that? You had a good dungeon of players, keep going with them.

Whatever though, I understand how a lot of people won't enjoy longer dungeons - more manual work or at the very least more time dedicated to the game. Which is fine, that's what retail is for. I just wish this wasn't the norm, which past expansions didn't advocate for. Mythic dungeons are a nice thing though, so I do vouch for this being an option.

[slaise1]

I agree with everything this guy says if it has not been posted already.

[Kyanion]

I agree with everything this guys says if it has not been posted already.

Has been posted at least 15 times. And don't just 'agree with everything' blindly. Have your OWN opinion on things and don't link some random video and be a sheep. Or at least breakdown some points of WHY you agree with X. Some of us won't bother watching the videos in the first place though.

[jvbastel]

Oh, I would add someone from a dungeon if I see the chance that we would meet again under similar circumstances. The thing is, when I level characters, I do this sporadically, when the mood hits me - at the moment, I work on my personal projects for different characters, or on weekly events - so, even if I add a character while leveling, I don't know if we are in the same level range in the next day. And if I add someone for TW, I don't know if he will be there in the next event - probably, he got all his mounts and will not bother anymore, while I still run these things for the quest chest, for example.

It's difficult to keep in touch with people who share some of your favorite activies, even with a cross-realm FL. (I also work in an advertising agency, which makes scheduled play quite complicated - I already have to juggle 2-3 pen & paper roleplaying groups.)

The fact that leveling is such a fast progress now does factor into this as well. If you don't play for a day, you're probably 10 levels behind the other players in that dungeon run.

Out of interest, what pen&paper do you play?

[PenguinChan]

The fact that leveling is such a fast progress now does factor into this as well. If you don't play for a day, you're probably 10 levels behind the other players in that dungeon run.

This is a big reason why trying to keep in contact with players and play with them is tough. People don't want to wait for you to level up (Justifiable) and it's almost impossible to catch up unless you play more than them.

[Deleted]

A lot of the conversations I have don't even get to the small talk stage, which is sad. And yes, a lot of talk now comes purely down to mechanical if players are terrible, or absolutely new. This is just how the game has evolved since even when the content is relevant, once people get geared it starts to becomes monotone grinding. There really isn't much to think about once you can survive major mechanics in dungeons, or push DPS so fast that it becomes irrelevant. I'm not saying past expansions never got to this point, because they did -- but I don't ever remember anyone face rolling current patch content a week after it was introduced.

So regardless, that's an issue anyone has had since the start. If you don't feel like talking? Well, you're not as social as others and keep to yourself. That's fine -- but my point was that there are a lot of individuals who aren't like you but don't feel the need to talk. Why? Because why bother! I do agree that's an extreme response, but it's honestly not far off to the reasons people bring forth. A lot of people are a lot less social than they used to be just because the nature of gaming today; however I honestly believe people are willing to reach out and have conversations.

But 20 minute runs are not 'conversations'. 60 minute dungeons are, hours of playing together ARE conversations. Dungeons today are nothing but quick grinds where you drop players constantly and move on with a new batch. It's to the point of where if you pay attention, you sometimes run into THE SAME EXACT PEOPLE who just quit after the dungeon ended. This is so common it hurts -- why even bother doing that? You had a good dungeon of players, keep going with them.

Whatever though, I understand how a lot of people won't enjoy longer dungeons - more manual work or at the very least more time dedicated to the game. Which is fine, that's what retail is for. I just wish this wasn't the norm, which past expansions didn't advocate for. Mythic dungeons are a nice thing though, so I do vouch for this being an option.

Well, I often re-queue with at least some of these people. The group may still stay not talkative - but does it matter? Is the participation in a group activity not a social thing when nobody talks?

[jvbastel]

Well part of that would be Blizzard moving away from events that would gather everyone in one place to crash the realm. It was a design choice for the sanity of players on large realms that remembered AQ and other events that were large clusterfucks. Yes it is sad that those events didn't work properly and I wish the tech was better so it COULD happen but that wasn't the reality of it. So those events going away for the most part was sadly a good thing.

There's probably ways tom create events like these that don't force the entire server to be in 1 spot. Say there's an event that deals with the elemental planes (cata style)

There's a shared server quest that requires a boatload of materials or quest drops (I'm talking millions) and the more you give in, the better your reward at the end.
In the end, when al the materials are farmed, there's an event where each elemental plane gets 'opened' or something and 4 huge world bosses come out that need to be defeated around the same time (say a 1 minute interval). The entire server needs to collaborate to kill these mobs, and they're all in different zones.

Once they're defeated, a new raid opens that goes trough these elemental planes to at the end defeat the big bad that corrupted these planes.

Just a quick example of an event that could get the entire server involed, including new, low-level players.

[Uurdz]

Well part of that would be Blizzard moving away from events that would gather everyone in one place to crash the realm. It was a design choice for the sanity of players on large realms that remembered AQ and other events that were large clusterfucks. Yes it is sad that those events didn't work properly and I wish the tech was better so it COULD happen but that wasn't the reality of it. So those events going away for the most part was sadly a good thing.

Did you actually play WoD? Like, did you not experience the Garrison wait-in-line god awful mess?

[Deleted]

The fact that leveling is such a fast progress now does factor into this as well. If you don't play for a day, you're probably 10 levels behind the other players in that dungeon run.

Out of interest, what pen&paper do you play?

Currently, I am a player in 2 Pathfinder campaigns (one is PF Society, one is "Way of the Wicked" where we are a group of evil Asmodeus followers, so we are the BAD GUYS for a change). But I also have played in D&D 3.5 and 4.0, GURPS Transhuman Space, Ars Magica, Vampire the Masquerade, Mage the Ascension, Changeling the Dreaming, and DeGenesis, and had peeks into various other RPG systems. I also designed one myself, a fantasy setting I now use as a base for a fantasy novel I write. :3

I host a "Changeling the Dreaming" campaign outside of the meta-plot (my last was set up in a fictive location in England called Moonstone City, this one is set up in the vicinity of Castle Neuschwanstein in South Bavaria and revolves around some fictive Treasures which were inherited from Ludwig II.) and a World of Darkness crossover campaign (set up in Moostone City in 2012 as a follow-up to my former Changeling-Campaign and a Mage campaign in this city: A mage, a mummy, and a demon brought together by fate in the End Times unter the ever-growing Red Star to protect a powerful node from harm by an Earthbound; with slight similarities to "The Stand" by Stephen King, but withoug the Christian background. Don't ask. I have a very special take on the WoD mythology, incorporating a bit of Lovecraftian ideas for example). Moonstone City is for me as Sunnydale is for Joss Whedon.

When I host campaigns, I usually write the story and improvise quite a lot. But I also have hosted 2 "Giovanni Chronicles" campaigns (different groups, both times only Books I-III because nobody liked the changes to their characters in Book IV).

I also have to add that I play / host in German, because my English is unfortunately not that fluent in live situations. Writing is a bit easier because you have time to find the right words.