"Moral Narcissism and the Least-Great Generation"

[Berengil]

Politicians now say 'We will make jobs that can't be shipped over seas', which means road construction and feeding the people who live here. Any politician who says they are bringing the jobs back are full of shit and blowing smoke up your ass, you should run from them as fast as possible. Companies dont want to pay american wages and benefits, in fact it is cheaper to make it in china and ship it back to the states across half the planet than it is to produce it here and sell it here. Those jobs are never coming back, ever.

Unless you tell the WTO to go fck itself, pull out of all free trade agreements, and levy a 100% tax on ALL imports.

Then, if someone wants access to the US market, they either have to make it here ( thus providing jobs) or pay a high entry fee ( thus subsidizing the federal budget).

Quite frankly, free trade is economic treason. When speaking of markets, I am a Hamiltonian nationalist.

[Endus]

Unless you tell the WTO to go fck itself, pull out of all free trade agreements, and levy a 100% tax on ALL imports.

Then, if someone wants access to the US market, they either have to make it here ( thus providing jobs) or pay a high entry fee ( thus subsidizing the federal budget).

Quite frankly, free trade is economic treason. When speaking of markets, I am a Hamiltonian nationalist.

This would lead to significantly increased costs of goods within the American market, making for a higher cost-of-living relative to other Western nations that don't follow along, leading to a slow exodus in search of greener pastures.

There's issues with globalization, in terms of how predatory the system is to developing countries; while it provides workers there a "better" quality of life than they had, it's still industry profiting off working conditions that wouldn't be legally defensible in developed countries. If you think globalization has worked against you, in Western nations, then either you're an assembly-line worker who's unwilling/unable to do anything else for some reason, or you're not actually grasping how you're benefiting off the system.

[Deleted]

Moral Narcissism and the Least-Great Generation
Old man talking shit

What did that grandpa say? I do not understand those complicated words and sentences.

[Berengil]

This would lead to significantly increased costs of goods within the American market, making for a higher cost-of-living relative to other Western nations that don't follow along, leading to a slow exodus in search of greener pastures.

There's issues with globalization, in terms of how predatory the system is to developing countries; while it provides workers there a "better" quality of life than they had, it's still industry profiting off working conditions that wouldn't be legally defensible in developed countries. If you think globalization has worked against you, in Western nations, then either you're an assembly-line worker who's unwilling/unable to do anything else for some reason, or you're not actually grasping how you're benefiting off the system.

I'm not an assembly line guy, i'm a butcher. Being able to make the necessities of life within one's own borders is an essential element of national security.

Endus, I'm liberal on almost all stuff. But on trade, I'm a paleo-conservative. I acknowledge there have been some benefits to free trade. I just don't think they outweigh the negatives. The negatives being how utterly it has screwed the working class in the US.

You have perhaps noticed that the " rebels in both parties" ( if I may quote Van Jones) are similar on trade. Both Sanders and Trump decry its effects on the US working class. I'm a Sanders man. Not stupidly though; I voted for him in my state's primary and I intend to vote for Clinton in the general, because fck Trump's racism/sexism. But you cannot deny the pull of Sanders' and Trump's positions on trade and the energy they have produced.

A big, big chunk of US workers have gotten royally screwed by globalism. Carrier, anyone?

[primalmatter]

You're not serious are you?

Am but at some point I realized it isn't worth writing a thesis with no less then six references from masters of the field to make a point on a internet forum.

[Nachturnal]

I am in my 50s.. and I have heard this exact line in all kinds of variations from those in their 90s - 40s when I was in my teens and twens. And of course later..
Nothing, absolutely nothing has changed for that matter.

Holy shit you're old! I keep assuming everyone here is either a teen or in their 20s with the odd 30 something in the mix lol.

[Endus]

I'm not an assembly line guy, i'm a butcher. Being able to make the necessities of life within one's own borders is an essential element of national security.

That isn't what we're talking about, here, in the first place.

Endus, I'm liberal on almost all stuff. But on trade, I'm a paleo-conservative. I acknowledge there have been some benefits to free trade. I just don't think they outweigh the negatives. The negatives being how utterly it has fcked the working class in the US.

You have perhaps noticed that the " rebels in both parties" ( if I may quote Van Jones) are similar on trade. Both Sanders and Trump decry its effects on the US working class. I'm a Sanders man. Not stupidly though; I voted for him in my state's primary and I intend to vote for Clinton in the general, because fck Trump's racism/sexism. But you cannot deny the pull of Sanders' and Trump's positions on trade and the energy they have produced.

A big, big chunk of US workers have gotten royally fcked by globalism. Carrier, anyone?

Most of the argument is that it's the middle class that's been hosed by the most recent decades of economics, not the working class, which has been growing in size. And most of the issue with the latter could be resolved with ensuring there's a strong minimum wage.

The working class in the USA isn't really "fucked", in any objective sense. Their interests haven't been protected adequately for several decades (by EITHER party; I'm not being partisan here), leading to growing wealth inequality, sure. But that's not because of globalization. And putting in massive tariffs on imports isn't going to lead to a growth in jobs; it's going to increase prices, both in the short and long-term, and wreak havoc with American exports as well, as companies respond to the USA with similar protectionism.

I'd agree that corporations should be reined in. My argument would be that, given a company that's offshoring production, require that they pay their offshore employees well enough that they would have a comparable quality-of-life as American workers would have, instead. You'll still get a cost savings in wages, because cost of living in those nations is typically lower, but you wouldn't be able to engage in abusive business practices that would be illegal in the USA (working conditions, hours, benefits, etc). That would tend to boost the economies in those nations, over time, leading to higher costs of living alongside the increased incomes, leading to a normalization among countries, which would make offshoring production less attractive in the long term, anyway. But I'm far more concerned about the sweatshop workers in Vietnam and the conditions they face than American workers who have other job opportunities they can retrain for. Which they largely do. Unemployment's been improving and isn't really an issue in the USA any longer, and that recession wasn't due to offshoring in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -

Am but at some point I realized it isn't worth writing a thesis with no less then six references from masters of the field to make a point on a internet forum.

You didn't have any references. You made up a bunch of stuff that was pretty easily demonstrated to be nonsense, based on actual data, and now you're complaining that you shouldn't have to back up your claims and people should just believe you because shut up, or something.

[primalmatter]

That isn't what we're talking about, here, in the first place.



Most of the argument is that it's the middle class that's been hosed by the most recent decades of economics, not the working class, which has been growing in size. And most of the issue with the latter could be resolved with ensuring there's a strong minimum wage.

The working class in the USA isn't really "fucked", in any objective sense. Their interests haven't been protected adequately for several decades (by EITHER party; I'm not being partisan here), leading to growing wealth inequality, sure. But that's not because of globalization. And putting in massive tariffs on imports isn't going to lead to a growth in jobs; it's going to increase prices, both in the short and long-term, and wreak havoc with American exports as well, as companies respond to the USA with similar protectionism.

I'd agree that corporations should be reined in. My argument would be that, given a company that's offshoring production, require that they pay their offshore employees well enough that they would have a comparable quality-of-life as American workers would have, instead. You'll still get a cost savings in wages, because cost of living in those nations is typically lower, but you wouldn't be able to engage in abusive business practices that would be illegal in the USA (working conditions, hours, benefits, etc). That would tend to boost the economies in those nations, over time, leading to higher costs of living alongside the increased incomes, leading to a normalization among countries, which would make offshoring production less attractive in the long term, anyway. But I'm far more concerned about the sweatshop workers in Vietnam and the conditions they face than American workers who have other job opportunities they can retrain for. Which they largely do. Unemployment's been improving and isn't really an issue in the USA any longer, and that recession wasn't due to offshoring in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -



You didn't have any references. You made up a bunch of stuff that was pretty easily demonstrated to be nonsense, based on actual data, and now you're complaining that you shouldn't have to back up your claims and people should just believe you because shut up, or something.

Neither did you save for a laughable research paper that had the conclusion of "well maybe?"

Like I said it just isn't worth it. It is like debating god with a zealot. Even if I proved you utterly wrong you wouldn't budge.

[DeadmanWalking]

Unless you tell the WTO to go fck itself, pull out of all free trade agreements, and levy a 100% tax on ALL imports.

Then, if someone wants access to the US market, they either have to make it here ( thus providing jobs) or pay a high entry fee ( thus subsidizing the federal budget).

Quite frankly, free trade is economic treason. When speaking of markets, I am a Hamiltonian nationalist.

Your grasp of economics leaves much to be desired. When you put a tax or tariff on stuff from other countries they just up the cost of the stuff you want by that % and Americans end up paying that tariff. So you want a $1000 tv for gaming? It is now $2000 at Walmart because of a 100% tariff on China. Congratulations on punishing yourself. World economies do not operate in a vacuum that you are immune to.

[Endus]

Neither did you save for a laughable research paper that had the conclusion of "well maybe?"

Like I said it just isn't worth it. It is like debating god with a zealot. Even if I proved you utterly wrong you wouldn't budge.

Only in GenOT would someone accuse me of being a "zealot" for relying on the results of academic studies and government data, rather than just accepting people's baseless statements based on blind faith.

Yeah, I like having data to back up claims. Silly me for being a "zealot" about wanting evidence.

[Steve French]

It's funny to see exactly what this article is talking about taking place in this very thread. Such smugness from the young ones. The irony.

[primalmatter]

I always just think its funny when people suggest we should go back to the 1950's. I mean unless you want to go back to racism, bigotry and turning a blind eye to child rape in the church, what a truly moral time!

From church to mosque. Less has changed then you think it has.

Just ask the UK.

[primalmatter]

You should know that facts are looked down on here from certain people.

Anyone who relies on pulling out google articles that are inconclusive then raves that the person he is talking to won't do the same had me skeptical at best of his claims of being reasonable.

[Endus]

Anyone who relies on pulling out google articles that are inconclusive then raves that the person he is talking to won't do the same had me skeptical at best of his claims of being reasonable.

You're spending all your time here complaining that my sources are "bad" and that it's "bad" to want data, while providing none to back up your claim. And saying you don't want to waste that kind of time. But you keep posting. If you could defend your arguments with more reliable information than mine, you could have already done so for less effort than you've spent here.

So I think it's pretty clear you aren't doing so because you CAN'T refute the data, so you're attacking the source rather than admit that, just maybe, you were wrong.

[Berengil]

Well, Endus, as someone I hardly ever agree with on anything BUT trade once said:

" I believe in free trade. I do not worship it." ----- Pat Buchanan

It has its place, and it does have some benefits. It also has costs, and IMO the costs outweigh the benefits. One of those costs ( as I see it) is the loss of a manufacturing base that can make the essentials of national life during a time of crisis. Thus removing dependence on foreign powers that might not be wholly sympathetic to the US. That's why I mentioned it earlier.

As for caring about the workers in other countries: well, I'm human and of course I have some empathy for them. But let me be frank here. I'm an American. I care about conditions/labor relations/wage inequality in the US. I try to vote for a government that will look after its own people first. Politicians should be concerned first and foremost about the well-being and prosperity of their own citizens, not the transnational corporations being able to save another dollar.

And ( cold as this may be) not about sweatshop labor in some hellhole in east Asia. If consumers care about that, let them demonstrate it by not buying anything made in such ways.

I reiterate: when it comes to economics and trade, I am a Hamiltonian nationalist.


EDIT: sorry btw for taking this so far offtopic

[Theinquisition]

We live in the "Bernie" generation. where everyone wants something for free or they want the benefits that someone has worked 20 years for without putting in the time.

[starlord]

We live in the "Bernie" generation. where everyone wants something for free or they want the benefits that someone has worked 20 years for without putting in the time.

"work 20 years for benefits" doesnt happen anymore. companies figured out it was a lot cheaper to hire someone for 5 years then fire them for someone else who is willing to start at the bottom.

[Rumblecrush]

Just another thinly veiled attack on the pursuit of knowledge and science, as well as the progression of how our society has become more free and open, something an old person has a hard time grasping with.

Knowledge and science go right out the window when it comes to fatasses eating too much

[Theinquisition]

"work 20 years for benefits" doesnt happen anymore. companies figured out it was a lot cheaper to hire someone for 5 years then fire them for someone else who is willing to start at the bottom.

Not if you're a quality employee. theres folks working at my company that have been here for 40 years +

[starlord]

Not if you're a quality employee. theres folks working at my company that have been here for 40 years +

yes you will find most comapnies have a few dinosaurs still kicking around and an abundance of new people... not a lot in the middle though.