Warcraft Chronicle Vol 2 (Warning: Spoilers)

[ravenmoon]

• Turalyon did not despair, unleashed holy power, Light blinded all around
• Took up Lothar’s blade and knocked the warchief unconscious
• For Azeroth, For the Alliance, For Lothar!
• Orcs scattered, some went north, east, west, back to Portal
• Alliance did not slaughter left over orcs, put them in chains, including Orgrim

hmm. I had thought Turalyon did some serious combat with Ogrim and actually beat him, rather than just blind him and knock him out.

Another thing i don't get those who defend the horde as if something more humane than what is presented. Not how it says Alliance did not slaughter, where orcs would have done that without remorse - which is the nature of that horde, which was not good at all and ye the way some behave over it.. it is what it is, these guys are ruthless and merciless, they are not compassionate and merciful and yet they keep trying to conquer the others in cataclysm. It is what it is, they may not all out evil, like the Burning Legion at all, but they're not good people in general, bar a few exceptions.

[Aucald]

I'm not sure, I mean the guardian was powerful and all but was she powerful enough to truly wreck the big fel Titan himself? Sargeras just fell off the face of the earth in the lore and that made no sense at all.

Originally Sargeras was shunted elsewhere after the death of Medivh, unable to re-assume his form and presumably unable to contact the Legion. The Devs described him as being stuck in limbo. It seems this is retconned now, with Sargeras off doing *something* else while his lieutenants plotted and schemed. Of course he may just have been sitting back and letting his proxies do their work.

[Rhlor]

I wonder if someday this territory could be used



Is the same size as West Plaguelands And half was part of quelthalas, could transform these ruins into an blood elven port

[Zaelsino]

in clonclusion we should empahsise the switch is due to blood elf reasons, helped by a changed horde and sylvannas as the main thrust without bringing the alliance into it, except when the blood elves make excuses for turning on their former allies like that. And that's just talk, but it's not the real reason, because it's very weak. and here is one of the major beefs the high elves have with their kin sullying their race's proud and good heritage of nobility and honour.

It was pure politics though. The blood elves had no allies by the end of the Third War, and the Horde, to quote Halduron, were "the only ones willing to fight for Quel'Thalas at all." Why would the elves feeling they actually had reasons to distrust the Alliance make their choice a weak one? From their perspective, it's the opposite.

I'm profoundly confused by this idea you have that the BEs feeling slighted by the Alliance makes them insane or evil. Drawing on evidence of bad blood and past "betrayals" by the Alliance makes their decision to turn away from it and give the reformed Horde a chance far more justifiable, if expediency isn't good enough.

Anyway, it's an interesting way for the chronicle to end this story. I always figured that Anasterian leaving the Alliance with his "poor human leadership" comment (per the old lore) was just him being a prick. QT suffering pretty badly after the Alliance retreated and Anasterian taking this as a huge betrayal is better IMO.

[KrazyK923]

I'm not sure, I mean the guardian was powerful and all but was she powerful enough to truly wreck the big fel Titan himself? Sargeras just fell off the face of the earth in the lore and that made no sense at all.

That was also back before they kept adding in more exponentially powerful enemies, and Archimonde/Kil'Jaeden were still within th realm of possibilities to defeat.

Also it would have been fine if he was back by now, but a lot of the reason Aegwynn was impressive to me was that she managed to basically scramble Sargeras' brains for nearly 1000 years by killing the Avatar.

[Rhlor]

It was pure politics though. The blood elves had no allies by the end of the Third War, and the Horde, to quote Halduron, were "the only ones willing to fight for Quel'Thalas at all." Why would the elves feeling they actually had reasons to distrust the Alliance make their choice a weak one? From their perspective, it's the opposite.

I'm profoundly confused by this idea you have that the BEs feeling slighted by the Alliance makes them insane or evil. Drawing on evidence of bad blood and past "betrayals" by the Alliance makes their decision to turn away from it and give the reformed Horde a chance far more justifiable, if expediency isn't good enough.

Anyway, it's an interesting way for the chronicle to end this story. I always figured that Anasterian leaving the Alliance with his "poor human leadership" comment (per the old lore) was just him being a prick. QT suffering pretty badly after the Alliance retreated and Anasterian taking this as a huge betrayal is better IMO.

Doomhammer left troops to help the Amani was one of the reasons why he lost the war had no dragons to attack lordaeron. In fact all this of wanting to gain the aid of the amani was the main reason of the defeat if from the beginning allied with alterac had won the war.The Amani were weak even after the elves sent troops to help the humans and were alone to fight against the Amani could not even hold a single span of territory were totally defeated by the elves even when they did not have the total of their army

[Rend Blackhand]

hmm. I had thought Turalyon did some serious combat with Ogrim and actually beat him, rather than just blind him and knock him out.

Another thing i don't get those who defend the horde as if something more humane than what is presented. Not how it says Alliance did not slaughter, where orcs would have done that without remorse - which is the nature of that horde, which was not good at all and ye the way some behave over it.. it is what it is, these guys are ruthless and merciless, they are not compassionate and merciful and yet they keep trying to conquer the others in cataclysm. It is what it is, they may not all out evil, like the Burning Legion at all, but they're not good people in general, bar a few exceptions.

Why would they not be? You have to remember that the orcs come from a planet where if they are not ruthless then they would be destroyed by Ogres or Arakkoa or crazy plants. Why would their mindset change? The orc's attitude is critical to their survival, even more so now that the Alliance will always be breathing down their necks because of the past.

[Ethenil]

I don't want to derail the thread again, but I just have one last question: where is there any information about the relationship between Quel'Thalas and Ironforge, friendly or otherwise?

[Aucald]

I don't want to derail the thread again, but I just have one last question: where is there any information about the relationship between Quel'Thalas and Ironforge, friendly or otherwise?

I don't think there is any, really. Quel'Thalas was isolationist and quite far removed from Ironforge and the Dwarven lands. We know the Wildhammers were friendly with the outpost of Quel'Danil in the Hinterlands, but that was probably the limit of their exposure. Given that the Wildhammers were also distant from the bulk of the Dwarven clans further in the south, it's likely the High Elves knew next to nothing of them.

[Zulkhan]

Doomhammer left troops to help the Amani was one of the reasons why he lost the war had no dragons to attack lordaeron. In fact all this of wanting to gain the aid of the amani was the main reason of the defeat if from the beginning allied with alterac had won the war.The Amani were weak even after the elves sent troops to help the humans and were alone to fight against the Amani could not even hold a single span of territory were totally defeated by the elves even when they did not have the total of their army

Well, the Amani literally flooded in Silvermoon City itself and is clarified that pushing them out of there cost High Elves an huge toll. Plus is not really clear which actual amount of troops Anasterian left in the Alliance's care. Anasterian doesn't complain about the Alliance taking a gorillion of elves for their campaign, he complains about the Alliance abandoing them.

[Friendlyimmolation]

hmm. I had thought Turalyon did some serious combat with Ogrim and actually beat him, rather than just blind him and knock him out.

Another thing i don't get those who defend the horde as if something more humane than what is presented. Not how it says Alliance did not slaughter, where orcs would have done that without remorse - which is the nature of that horde, which was not good at all and ye the way some behave over it.. it is what it is, these guys are ruthless and merciless, they are not compassionate and merciful and yet they keep trying to conquer the others in cataclysm. It is what it is, they may not all out evil, like the Burning Legion at all, but they're not good people in general, bar a few exceptions.

not good to the Alliance? I don't think the Orcs would lose any sleep. The majority of the Orcs were still under Legion influence at this time, in Cata Garrosh leads the orcs that are fed up with both Thrall and the Alliance.

[Zulkhan]

I don't want to derail the thread again, but I just have one last question: where is there any information about the relationship between Quel'Thalas and Ironforge, friendly or otherwise?

I remember one of the novels (probably Day of the Dragon) briefly exposing some of the politics occurring between the Alliance and the opinion dwarves had of the elves. I also remember something about dwarves being very fast friends with humans but not so much with high elves, even though I can't remember the source right now (probably some piece of old lore).

[Combatbutler]

Well, the Amani literally flooded in Silvermoon City itself and is clarified that pushing them out of there cost High Elves an huge toll. Plus is not really clear which actual amount of troops Anasterian left in the Alliance's care. Anasterian doesn't complain about the Alliance taking a gorillion of elves for their campaign, he complains about the Alliance abandoing them.

They actually made it into the city? Weren't they just rampaging through the inner kingdom, because the city shield was too strong to breach?

[Rhlor]

They actually made it into the city? Weren't they just rampaging through the inner kingdom, because the city shield was too strong to breach?

Not even the red dragons could break

[Combatbutler]

Not even the red dragons could break

I know that I want to find out if it changed with chronicle ;P

[Rhlor]

I know that I want to find out if it changed with chronicle ;P

Part 17: Ashes of Quel’Thalas
• Runestones desecrated, death knights and trolls regained their magic
• Horde stormed toward Silvermoon, pillaging and destroying countryside
• King Anasterian called on great elf magi and rangers to fight
• Turalyon and Alleria arrived with half the Alliance army
• Alleria met with king, urged him to send more aid to the Alliance forces
• Furious about Horde attack, Anasterian pledged full forces to Alliance
• Hope of quick victory vanished in smoke as red dragons arrived
• Dragonmaw had finally learned to ride captive dragons into battle
• Gryphon riders, unused to dragons, forced to retreat
• Dragons took no joy in destruction, wept from sorrow as they slaughtered
• Roaring firestorm caused elf defenders to take shelter in Silvermoon City
• Anasterian had no physical weapon to stop invaders, but had something else
• Elves summoned barrier around city using Sunwell, fount of magic power
• Horde smashed against shield, but even red dragons’ fire could not pierce it
• Orgrim impatient, destroying Quel’Thalas not priority, Lordaeron was
• Troll pact not honored, but new, powerful ogres and red dragons arrived
• Orgrim began planning route to Lordaeron that would catch Alliance by surprise

Part 18: Alterac’s Betrayal
• Failing to breach Silvermoon, Orgrim ordered troops to pull back west
• Rather than take fortified routes, Orgrim to take Horde across mountains
• Zul’jin furious, refused to leave without destroying elves of Silvermoon
• Gul’dan sensed Orgrim’s mounting fear of losing trolls as allies
• Convinced Orgrim and Zul’jin that Stormreavers found way to remove barrier
• Orgrim left Gul’dan to remove barrier, but Dragonmaw stayed to watch
• If barrier had not fallen in three days, Dragonmaw to force Gul’dan west
• Orgrim plagued by doubts, things not according to plan since Hillsbrad
• In Alterac Mountains, King Perenolde awaited orcs with offer of allegiance
• Fearful of orcs, dragons, and death knights, Perenolde decided to betray Alliance
• Alterac to be spared if Perenolde granted safe passage to the Horde
• Orgrim agreed, Horde continue marching south to Tirisfal Glade without rest

Part 19: The Siege of Capital City
• Turalyon had suspected orcs would pivot west, fears finally confirmed
• Alterac would slow orcs, Turalyon took bulk of forces west to follow Orgrim
• Horde had already reach capital, word of betrayal reached Turalyon
• King Terenas defended capital, not a warrior but man of charisma and cunning
• Horde began whittling away at city, but needed reinforcement clans in Quel’Thalas
• No word yet from Stormreavers, Twilight’s Hammer, or Dragonmaw clans
• Orgrim sensed something not right, unease deepened at Turalyon’s arrival
• Horde must breach stronghold because Alliance armies en route to capital
• Dragonmaw arrived announcing Gul’dan had betrayed them
• Gul’dan, Stormreavers, and Twilight’s Hammer gone to orcish fleet in Hillsbrad
• News of Perenolde’s betrayal meant mountain passes blocked by Alliance
• Horde could no longer call on reinforcements from the Hinterlands
• Orgrim knew war was lost, furiously called troops off and back to Khaz Modan
• Dragonmaw dispatched to call Horde back from Hinterlands
• If possibility of regrouping in Khaz Modan, Horde might still have a chance
• Dragon riders covered retreat, Black Tooth Grin sent to hunt down Gul’dan

[Zulkhan]

They actually made it into the city? Weren't they just rampaging through the inner kingdom, because the city shield was too strong to breach?

Probably Gul'dan and the Stormreavers managed to break it, since that was the only reason Orgrim left him behind, the Dragonmaw were there to merely keep an eye on him (not really useful though, all they served was informing Orgrim of Gul'dan's betrayal). Anyway:

Part 20: In Search of Godhood
• Gul’dan told followers of plans to seek out Tomb of Sargeras, promising power
• Almost all Stormreavers and Twilight’s Hammer supported, but some holdouts
• Amani trolls not interested, continued siege of Silvermoon City

and:

• Meanwhile, Anasterian pushed back trolls from Silvermoon City in costly battles
• Would later withdraw from Alliance, saying elves were abandoned in time of need
• Not all high elves believed that, but enough did

Seems like the Amani successfully sieged Silvermoon after the shield went down but were unable to take the city for good. The High Elves managed to push them out but at great cost.

[Rhlor]

I think that Zuljin was a hypocrite when he was angry with the horde for preferring to be allied to the elves, Zuljin did nothing to help the horde to win the war and it was his fault for being obsessed with the elves that the horde lost the war

[Friendlyimmolation]

I think that Zuljin was a hypocrite when he was angry with the horde for preferring to be allied to the elves, Zuljin did nothing to help the horde to win the war and it was his fault for being obsessed with the elves that the horde lost the war

Horde lost because of Gul'dan, not because of Zul'jin. Gul'dan would have found another way to take his stormweavers away.

[Rhlor]

Probably Gul'dan and the Stormreavers managed to break it, since that was the only reason Orgrim left him behind, the Dragonmaw were there to merely keep an eye on him (not really useful though, all they served was informing Orgrim of Gul'dan's betrayal). Anyway:



and:



Seems like the Amani successfully sieged Silvermoon after the shield went down but were unable to take the city for good. The High Elves managed to push them out but at great cost.

The magic shield protected the city of silvermoon

- - - Updated - - -

Horde lost because of Gul'dan, not because of Zul'jin. Gul'dan would have found another way to take his stormweavers away.

if instead of attacking Quel'Thalas, had attacked lordaeron had won the war, if instead of leaving troops to help zuljin in quelthalas they had carried lordaeron they had won