Are frost death knights that overpowered?

[Hobb]

I think you spelled "affliction warlock" wrong there mate.

Specs most represented among top parses:
- aff lock, by miles
- fury warrior
- assa rogue

then probably frost dk and frost mage

That simply isn't true.

At 10% bracket frost is on top as well as any % below 10.

Source: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#dataset=10

[exeetor]

I just feel like Frost is doing what Blizzard said at the start. Good on target damage and we suck at moving.
If we can hit we HIT now compared to the start of the exp.
I like it

- - - Updated - - -

I think you spelled "affliction warlock" wrong there mate.

Specs most represented among top parses:
- aff lock, by miles
- fury warrior
- assa rogue

then probably frost dk and frost mage

Many of the top guilds have said that they stack Frost DKs (and DHs) for some of the fights in NH cause they favor us so much. Especially Gul'dan

[dmchellfire]

The one Legendary that turns Frost BoS dagame from good to OP is the Helm, and once that is nerfed, BoS will be much more in line with Unholy and other mid-tier specs, but still very viable

[Deleted]

I just feel like Frost is doing what Blizzard said at the start. Good on target damage and we suck at moving.
If we can hit we HIT

Yeah People forget that.
We SUKS at moving. 1 sprint 70% and can't hit during the effect (or it stop)
So, we lack of mobility, but we hit harder to compensate.
Next patch, we will average but still a f***ing turtle...

I'm pretty mad about this. We have DH, over powered with insane mobility. Even Fury war are REALLY strong with an insane mobility too.
Do we nerf them? nop... thanks to the community :/


now, the only thing i hope is an average same output dps for both frost and UH. I don't really like UH tbh and i'll play it only if it doin better (far better)
ap is not an issue for me, all 3 weap are 54 since 3-4 weeks or more, can't remember. Leggos, in the other hand, is another story.

[dmchellfire]

Yeah People forget that.
We SUKS at moving. 1 sprint 70% and can't hit during the effect (or it stop)
So, we lack of mobility, but we hit harder to compensate.
Next patch, we will average but still a f***ing turtle...

I'm pretty mad about this. We have DH, over powered with insane mobility. Even Fury war are REALLY strong with an insane mobility too.
Do we nerf them? nop... thanks to the community :/


now, the only thing i hope is an average same output dps for both frost and UH. I don't really like UH tbh and i'll play it only if it doin better (far better)
ap is not an issue for me, all 3 weap are 54 since 3-4 weeks or more, can't remember. Leggos, in the other hand, is another story.

When you refer to mobility being an issue, which fights are you talking about? Heroic Nighthold? Mythic Nighthold? Mythic + Dungeons?

Yes, we are slow as F, and our main mobility ability Wraith Walk gets stuck on everything including air, but so far not one Nighthold fight has proven to be overly problematic because of our limited mobility.

Do we have to be more aware of mechanic timers to ensure we do not die to mechanics? Yes
Do other classes with much better mobility sometimes die to those same mechanics? Yes, some people just can't move out of the beam unfortunately
I would love to see a flat 10% movement speed increase to our class, and a fix to Wraith Walk to make it meaningful and not 99% wasted because you got stuck on a piece of grass though

If you are dying to mechanics, or not pulling enough dps, do not blame mobility, while it is an issue, it's not a class breaking issue, you just need to react faster than other players, and you probably won't hear any good UH or good BoS players complaining about this since they know how to plan their rotation and cool downs around their mobility

History has proven that the class Dev's do not play the classes at all, thus fundamental class flaws and issues will mostly go unresolved for months into a new expansion, like Unholy being trash tier all throughout Legion until they finally decided to buff the spec half a year later to make it viable, and left Shadow Priests destroying meters all throughout Patch 7.0, but hey, at least they are updating Ghoul models right!

[exeetor]

When you refer to mobility being an issue, which fights are you talking about? Heroic Nighthold? Mythic Nighthold? Mythic + Dungeons?

Yes, we are slow as F, and our main mobility ability Wraith Walk gets stuck on everything including air, but so far not one Nighthold fight has proven to be overly problematic because of our limited mobility.

Do we have to be more aware of mechanic timers to ensure we do not die to mechanics? Yes
Do other classes with much better mobility sometimes die to those same mechanics? Yes, some people just can't move out of the beam unfortunately
I would love to see a flat 10% movement speed increase to our class, and a fix to Wraith Walk to make it meaningful and not 99% wasted because you got stuck on a piece of grass though

If you are dying to mechanics, or not pulling enough dps, do not blame mobility, while it is an issue, it's not a class breaking issue, you just need to react faster than other players, and you probably won't hear any good UH or good BoS players complaining about this since they know how to plan their rotation and cool downs around their mobility

History has proven that the class Dev's do not play the classes at all, thus fundamental class flaws and issues will mostly go unresolved for months into a new expansion, like Unholy being trash tier all throughout Legion until they finally decided to buff the spec half a year later to make it viable, and left Shadow Priests destroying meters all throughout Patch 7.0, but hey, at least they are updating Ghoul models right!

For one, Trilliax, you just cant help out on stuff as well (go get cakes if needed) without insane dps-losses compared to rogues or warriors.
Thing is, if ur an active player that tries the most to help out with mechanics DK isnt that great at that.
If u get put on a "go do this mechanic" (get cakes that are far away on trilliax) then either you only and only do it if ur the last in the raid that can or you do it cause ur raid-leader sux at putting the correct classes on the correct job in the raid.
DKs are so static right now and has to be glued on the boss to be effective its almost stupid. OBRA build was better since atleast running away from the boss didnt screw up the next 45sec-1min of your damage.

When we are able to just stand and dps the damage is great thou which is the way it should be. Problem is right now that we cant leave the boss att all during BoS which fuck so much up. I just wish there was a way to put BoS on hold for lets say 10 sec without putting a CD on it (just lets say it freezes your rune regen aswell and it would be balanced) just so you could move without having to worry about stand right ontop of the boss or loose out on 25M damage.

[Deleted]

When you refer to mobility being an issue, which fights are you talking about? Heroic Nighthold? Mythic Nighthold? Mythic + Dungeons?

Yes, we are slow as F, and our main mobility ability Wraith Walk gets stuck on everything including air, but so far not one Nighthold fight has proven to be overly problematic because of our limited mobility.

Do we have to be more aware of mechanic timers to ensure we do not die to mechanics? Yes
Do other classes with much better mobility sometimes die to those same mechanics? Yes, some people just can't move out of the beam unfortunately
I would love to see a flat 10% movement speed increase to our class, and a fix to Wraith Walk to make it meaningful and not 99% wasted because you got stuck on a piece of grass though

If you are dying to mechanics, or not pulling enough dps, do not blame mobility, while it is an issue, it's not a class breaking issue, you just need to react faster than other players, and you probably won't hear any good UH or good BoS players complaining about this since they know how to plan their rotation and cool downs around their mobility

History has proven that the class Dev's do not play the classes at all, thus fundamental class flaws and issues will mostly go unresolved for months into a new expansion, like Unholy being trash tier all throughout Legion until they finally decided to buff the spec half a year later to make it viable, and left Shadow Priests destroying meters all throughout Patch 7.0, but hey, at least they are updating Ghoul models right!

I've not say i'm diyng because of that.
In MM+ i have a swap stuff with Leggos Boots for mid/long run.
In NH (HC and MM) i think some fight requiert more attention from us. As you say. But i only point the fact that we have a terrible mobility and no one ware when we talk about DPS.

Look at DH/Fury war please. How many DK reroll because of that?

[Zorachus]

My Guild is telling me to ditch Frost, and go Unholy for a massive increase in DPS and damage.

[Casterbridge]

My Guild is telling me to ditch Frost, and go Unholy for a massive increase in DPS and damage.

What? They know something the rest of us don't?

[Zorachus]

What? They know something the rest of us don't?

My issue my Guild noticed;

In Frost DK with my 1h Weapons at 899. All Traits filled up 34 maxed out. And gear score is i874. And I am only doing a measly 225k or so DPS. My Guild leader is super cool, he said let me theory craft for a second, asked me to log out and log back in, and he test my guy, as is, and said yep, current Talent and setup, best I could do is 225k to 250k dps.

He said try this, just switch to Unholy for a second, which I have not played but for like 10 minutes last year. I have ZERO traits, and zero relics. I switch to him, my gear score drops to i851, and my weapon drops to like i749. He tests that out, and I am doing 200k DPS right off the bat, with zero anything in Unholy. He said i'd strongly suggest you consider switching to Unholy spec moving forward, at least give it a good try for a couple weeks, see how you like it after gearing up.

Why in Unholy spec, with no relics at all, only like 4 traits out of 34 filled up, with a gear score of i850 and weapon of i749, am I doing 200k damage, which is pretty good for being like a newbie fresh 100. Where as in nice geared Frost spec; all 54 traits filled, all 3 relics filled with good 880 stuff, my weapon at i899, and my gear score of 874, am I doing so bad ?

[connor778]

My issue my Guild noticed;

In Frost DK with my 1h Weapons at 899. All Traits filled up 34 maxed out. And gear score is i874. And I am only doing a measly 225k or so DPS. My Guild leader is super cool, he said let me theory craft for a second, asked me to log out and log back in, and he test my guy, as is, and said yep, current Talent and setup, best I could do is 225k to 250k dps.

He said try this, just switch to Unholy for a second, which I have not played but for like 10 minutes last year. I have ZERO traits, and zero relics. I switch to him, my gear score drops to i851, and my weapon drops to like i749. He tests that out, and I am doing 200k DPS right off the bat, with zero anything in Unholy. He said i'd strongly suggest you consider switching to Unholy spec moving forward, at least give it a good try for a couple weeks, see how you like it after gearing up.

Why in Unholy spec, with no relics at all, only like 4 traits out of 34 filled up, with a gear score of i850 and weapon of i749, am I doing 200k damage, which is pretty good for being like a newbie fresh 100. Where as in nice geared Frost spec; all 54 traits filled, all 3 relics filled with good 880 stuff, my weapon at i899, and my gear score of 874, am I doing so bad ?

simply put, you need to learn how to play frost.

[Tojara]

Do you happen to be just auto attacking?

Mobility really isn't an issue in Nighthold, and while people like to link it as a weakness (it still is) it really doesn't affect raid balance that much. With limitations in mind, people aren't going to expect DKs (nor Ret Paladins) to get the back soaks on a boss like Krosus, nor should you be expected to trot to the opposite side of the room on a boss like Trilliax. All of those mobility problems can be solved by just having intelligent assignments, or in the case of Trilliax, just having the boss move around the outside of the room so your movement disabled melee classes don't have to move that far.

I hate wraith walk for various reasons, but it's actually pretty strong on a boss like Star Augur, especially in tandem with AMS. You can literally stay on top of the boss the entire icy injection, wraith walk at the last second and AMS the debuff off on the exterior of the room. That or you just get out immediately, do the same thing and come back to the boss.

The thing with frost DKs currently that make them strong is that they aren't completely overpowered in any one area, but are incredibly strong in every area. ST, AoE, burst and passive cleave are all regular categories that make a class strong, and frost DK has access to all of these. You still do decent AoE and passive cleave from doing your regular rotation, with using what everybody sees as the standard talent setup. No point in doubling down on cleave/AoE because the class just passively produces those two things at a level that's superior to most classes in the game.

Lastly it depends on the encounter but Sindragosa (even if the CD is large) is pretty game changing considering how much burst damage it can produce in AoE. Some of the early spell blade kills had multiple DKs which pretty much erased any danger of the arcane adds every exploding. Again, likely not a breaking point to somebodies strategy, but having multiple DKS and just deleting the parasites on the last phase of Gul'dan helps too.

TLDR; Wouldn't say they are overpowered in any individual area, but might be if you compare their whole toolkit to another classes. Regardless, really strong right now.

[Zorachus]

simply put, you need to learn how to play frost.

This was based on my Guild doing a quick theory test. Had me log off and log back on, in Frost spec and then again in Unholy spec, and two minutes later it showed the Frost spec just barely better than the Unholy spec which had nothing in it.

I have since geared up in Unholy, 31 traits filled, and all 3 relics slots filled now. Yeah I seem to be doing pretty good dps, but it's boring as fuck to me. And the Abomination, doesn't always seem to auto attack. And the Unholy rotation ( which isn't a rotation I know ) but it feels clunky, and some down time waiting cd's every once a while.

I went back to Frost after week off, and man Frost just feels warp speed super fast attack. I really like it a lot. And the spells are almost always ready to go in Frost, very little cd's.

[Akusa202]

Facts(dismiss the average joe MMO-C'er):

-Frost is OP(in NH), because of uptime on cleave/aoe and because mechanics favor you.
-Frost is doing good in PvP.
-Frost is providing excellent(but not top ST DPS - still better than half of the classes. Again - NH is not about ST).

Bye.

Wrong. Frost without helmet is no where near op. Plenty of other classes aoe is just as good.
Wrong. Frost is terrible in pvp, unholy is the way to go.

the simplicity in which Frost delivers its dmg with low CDs is overpowered. Its overall strength against highly skilled raider is above average.

Frost will undoubtedly be the highest DPS in your heroic/normal/LFR run, it will be above average so top 4 in your Mythic run though

What. All of it's damage comes from during Breath of Sindragosa. So you're looking at a cool down of 2:20-2:30mins with CoF trinket (unless you have ring, then every 2 mins). Most other classes have much shorter cooldowns, fury wars with cof can go ape shit like every 30 secs. And most classes are much more simple than managing BoS, learning when to use it and how to get the most of it. Which is why a frost dk won't be the top dps in your normal or lfr run, unless they out gear it because the average person raiding at that level either doesn't use BoS or doesn't use it well.

I agree with you that both dk spec are more cleave/AoE oriented but i think it would be really hard to make frost a very strong ST spec while not being broken in cleave / AoE. So much of frost cleave is done via ST rotation passively.

Idk, look at fury wars, they have amazing st and aoe and at least their aoe is on demand and can be used whenever they want, as much as they want. Most of ours is rng with a 65% chance to happen or not. Which isn't so bad on long cleave fights, but can be really bad on short aoe phases where you might not get any procs.

My Guild is telling me to ditch Frost, and go Unholy for a massive increase in DPS and damage.

No, your guild is bad. Go breath of sindragosa, not that garbage obliteration talent. ME, FF, HRW, w.e, w.e, GS, BoS. And practice with it and learn how to play it.

[Deleted]

Idk, look at fury wars, they have amazing st and aoe and at least their aoe is on demand and can be used whenever they want, as much as they want. Most of ours is rng with a 65% chance to happen or not. Which isn't so bad on long cleave fights, but can be really bad on short aoe phases where you might not get any procs

40+20% is 60% proc with 2T19or i miss something?

Anyway it's a good point. I feel so bad when i do 5-8 (8 is one of my top reccord) OB without any Rime proc.
Yes, you feel so OVERPOWER when it's happen. OP like a tank (-_-) and there is nothing to do for that. It's happen and we have to deal with.

Yeah sometime we got 5 proc in a row. But i prefer 1/2 proc constant than the terrible no proc (even worst when it's happen during the BL)

[Raiz]

This was based on my Guild doing a quick theory test. Had me log off and log back on, in Frost spec and then again in Unholy spec, and two minutes later it showed the Frost spec just barely better than the Unholy spec which had nothing in it.

I have since geared up in Unholy, 31 traits filled, and all 3 relics slots filled now. Yeah I seem to be doing pretty good dps, but it's boring as fuck to me. And the Abomination, doesn't always seem to auto attack. And the Unholy rotation ( which isn't a rotation I know ) but it feels clunky, and some down time waiting cd's every once a while.

I went back to Frost after week off, and man Frost just feels warp speed super fast attack. I really like it a lot. And the spells are almost always ready to go in Frost, very little cd's.

I feel like you're really biased. Try playing both spec over long period of fight with possibly no adds near bosses (or target for that matter). Frost aoe is more constant damage (aka linear) than unholy. In unholy AoE, everything can happen, like putting wounds on the lowest target and then when it dies it deals massive damage. It's hard to have a good measurement.

Simply put, you're not supposed to have the same DPS when there's a huge gap between the 2 specs.

[Kalador]

Idk, look at fury wars, they have amazing st and aoe and at least their aoe is on demand and can be used whenever they want, as much as they want. Most of ours is rng with a 65% chance to happen or not. Which isn't so bad on long cleave fights, but can be really bad on short aoe phases where you might not get any procs.

furry war is probably the best example of another very very strong spec in NH that probably need a nerf either in the ST or the Cleave department ImO..

[Deleted]

furry war is probably the best example of another very very strong spec in NH that probably need a nerf either in the ST or the Cleave department ImO..

But nothing for them right now
plus, they don't really rely on their leggos as we. -_-

[Gurg]

Hmm.. OP made exact same thread about fury and several "Is class X fun to play?"

So.. hes not here for trolling, just probably indecisive of what he wants to do ingame, looking for most fun but OP class.
Frost, as it is it can pull ahead with the helm in grouped fights and can play well in ST because, as its said, helm legend. Thats being nerfed in 7.2 which is behind the corner and, even before that, BoS playstyle is not for everybody. I personally run MG build and enjoy it so much.

To the op, if youre looking for something fun to play, look into Survival Hunters. I didnt see that you started that thread so either you dont like ranged or youre not into niche specs as survival. As for me, i have it as an second alt, next to my Ret pala and as it looks now it will prolly be my main alt.

Fury, on its own, its story for it self. Their gear scaling was always insanely good yeaaars back, dating in MoP, even before that probably so if they left it unchecked it will just spike even more up.

[exeetor]

What. All of it's damage comes from during Breath of Sindragosa. So you're looking at a cool down of 2:20-2:30mins with CoF trinket (unless you have ring, then every 2 mins). Most other classes have much shorter cooldowns, fury wars with cof can go ape shit like every 30 secs. And most classes are much more simple than managing BoS, learning when to use it and how to get the most of it. Which is why a frost dk won't be the top dps in your normal or lfr run, unless they out gear it because the average person raiding at that level either doesn't use BoS or doesn't use it well.

Lol hell no. Our most important skill is by far Howling Blast, this is the reason the helm is to strong, cause it boosts or most highest damaging skill. Sure BoS is important but ppl do not seem to understand that this is a Howlingblast Build that choose BoS as the last talent cause its the strongest choice.
All our relics boosts HB, we spec talents that boost HB over talents that boosts BoS etc.