I think ret will finally be fixed.

[Eon Drache]

So anyone else notice that they stated Judgement, Hammer of the Righteous, Hammer of Wrath, and Exorcism will generate holy power for Ret?

[Seani]

The problem with eternal glory is it's not reliable & thus most ret paladins wont take it, this also makes it extremely hard to balance because its very random.

Overall the talent would be much better for pve, pvp & balancing if they simply gave it a 100% chance at rank 3 but built in an internal CD which varies dependent on spec chosen (or the gear your wearing in the case of MOP).

My point is in 5.0 (not talking about 4.3) there arent any other viable options for a ret to take in that tier. So I mention that they get a "free eternal glory" and that will encourage them to use the ability as quick survivability if they need to

[Kampret]

I just really really hope their tinkering around these 'basic' each-class-is-unique stuff doesnt end up making the melee classes too similar with each other

[ambigiouslynamed]

dear OP
I dont.

The End

[Seani]

So anyone else notice that they stated Judgement, Hammer of the Righteous, Hammer of Wrath, and Exorcism will generate holy power for Ret?

It will be an optional talent at that teir. The other two improve your 3min and 5min cooldowns, it just depends how you play your ret.

[Talen]

So anyone else notice that they stated Judgement, Hammer of the Righteous, Hammer of Wrath, and Exorcism will generate holy power for Ret?

Its almost pitiful the way they keep missing the mark.

EJL

[ambigiouslynamed]

The new talents are boring, and theyre keeping Holy Power. I dont care about snares, I want it to be fun again.

i never played paly before wrath so plz say what did palys do before wrath? i just miss using divine storm

[MstSage]

i think you are hallucinating, sorry but that will never happen.
Blizz has shown promises over the year and never held them to the end.
P.S. Dumbing down talents tree is their demises, that remind me of SW galaxies NGE patch.

which SOE did to try to compete with WoW makes you wonder is Blizzard doing this to compete with SWTOR?

[palladiamors]

i never played paly before wrath so plz say what did palys do before wrath? i just miss using divine storm

You still get divine storm most likely. They said that a lot of the abilities in the tree were being made baseline on either a full basis or a specific spec basis. Retribution is likely to get divine storm, but Protection and Holy probably won't. Holy is likely to get holy shock, but Protection and Retribution probably won't. SO on and so fourth.

[ambigiouslynamed]

You still get divine storm most likely. They said that a lot of the abilities in the tree were being made baseline on either a full basis or a specific spec basis. Retribution is likely to get divine storm, but Protection and Holy probably won't. Holy is likely to get holy shock, but Protection and Retribution probably won't. SO on and so fourth.

its not about having divine storm its about having it useful for more than aoe in an x-pac where aoe is terrible

[Handsylton]

its not about having divine storm its about having it useful for more than aoe in an x-pac where aoe is terrible

That is Divine Storm's niche however. While they pretty much went against what they said by allowing Holy Wrath to be a filler, there was a long blue post if I remember correctly about not wanting to mix AoE and single target rotations. Divine Storm, and other such cleaves in single target rotation feel clunky, and not very good to the player. It almost feels wasted because it's only hitting one thing, limiting it's damage potential and making it feel very "MEH" to push. With Hammer of the Righteous being baseline for both Ret and Prot, the chance that Divine Storm will move from an AoE HP builder to an AoE HP finisher seems eminent.

---------- Post added 2011-10-28 at 06:42 AM ----------

Its almost pitiful the way they keep missing the mark.

EJL

Missing the mark, IN YOUR OPINION. You forgot the most important part of that statement. While we did agree that there need to be improvements in how the system functions, this was one of the ways, although we never mentioned it, that the feel of the rotation could be improved while keeping a similar system in place. With the introduction of the Monk class, who's melee dps system is eerily similar to that of a Rogue's, I don't think that Blizzard would go and implement ANOTHER combat system that is almost identical to these two, which are already going to be quite similar.

This could definitely be an improvement if implemented correctly. As long as they keep RNG in check, while providing enough HP to fill most of the holes in the rotation, most of the time, this system COULD feel very seamless and well oiled. We have to wait and see how it plays before we can come to any conclusions.

[terrahero]

Its almost pitiful the way they keep missing the mark.

EJL

Its definatly alot beter then what it is now. But they insist on clustering two diffirent, and on some points colliding, systems together.

Lets apply a little speculation:
-CS and Judgement are going to be your standerd single-taget holy power generators. On, yet to be determined cooldowns. But id dare wager Judgement will remain as an 8sec cd. CS might move to 3sec for Ret, but could also stay at 4.5.

-CS and HotR share cd, one is for singletarget and one is for aoe. Divine Storm will likely be an aoe finisher.

-HoW is an execute, and based on the T6 talent it remains as such. So from 20% and down you gain additional holy power generation, likely still on a 6sec cd.

-Exorcism is a proc. No idea how much % chance to proc. It generates 1 holy power when it procs.

So for an above 20% fight you'd be using CS every 4.5 (maybe 3) seconds. And Judgement every 8 seconds. So far there is no known filler, but we'll see about that. You'll still have plenty of empty gcds, unless there is a filler move, and the only way to fill these up is with a proc.
Below 20% health you get another holy power generator. But you'll still run into empty gcds and still need to rely on a proc to fill this up.
We now have 3 abilities that roughly fill the same role. Judgement = Holy Shock = ~Exorcism-proc. All three are a ranged holy power generator. But Exorcism only on proc, wich will likely be from melee attacks or abilities.

As i said, it looks alot beter then before. But Blizzard is just putting paper against the wall to cover up the cracks. Still relying on procs for our main combat system, albeit potentially less. Unless DP in T6 turns out to be the dps-winner, then we're going down the same proc-road. Or we rely on cooldowns to smooth over our combat system, just like today.

[Talen]

Missing the mark, IN YOUR OPINION.

It is my opinion the class deserves a viable resource system. The resource system in place is heavily flawed. The fixes they propose here do not address the core underlying issues, therefore Paladins will still be left with a flawed resource model.

Is the model flawed? As a resource - yes. It doesn't do everything Blizzard needs or wants a resource to do. If it is unable to function as a resource, then as a resource it is broken. Therefore, while attempts to paper over a broken model will no doubt lead to improvements, Blizzard once again misses the mark and as a result, there is a real possibilityt hat other issues will rise later

This won't fix Paladins. It can't. Whether it provides enough of band aid to hold things together will have to wait.

EJL

[Handsylton]

Its definatly alot beter then what it is now. But they insist on clustering two diffirent, and on some points colliding, systems together.

Lets apply a little speculation:
-CS and Judgement are going to be your standerd single-taget holy power generators. On, yet to be determined cooldowns. But id dare wager Judgement will remain as an 8sec cd. CS might move to 3sec for Ret, but could also stay at 4.5.

-CS and HotR share cd, one is for singletarget and one is for aoe. Divine Storm will likely be an aoe finisher.

-HoW is an execute, and based on the T6 talent it remains as such. So from 20% and down you gain additional holy power generation, likely still on a 6sec cd.

-Exorcism is a proc. No idea how much % chance to proc. It generates 1 holy power when it procs.

So for an above 20% fight you'd be using CS every 4.5 (maybe 3) seconds. And Judgement every 8 seconds. So far there is no known filler, but we'll see about that. You'll still have plenty of empty gcds, unless there is a filler move, and the only way to fill these up is with a proc.
Below 20% health you get another holy power generator. But you'll still run into empty gcds and still need to rely on a proc to fill this up.
We now have 3 abilities that roughly fill the same role. Judgement = Holy Shock = ~Exorcism-proc. All three are a ranged holy power generator. But Exorcism only on proc, wich will likely be from melee attacks or abilities.

As i said, it looks alot beter then before. But Blizzard is just putting paper against the wall to cover up the cracks. Still relying on procs for our main combat system, albeit potentially less. Unless DP in T6 turns out to be the dps-winner, then we're going down the same proc-road. Or we rely on cooldowns to smooth over our combat system, just like today.

I think it's going to be a necessity for Blizzard to implement a short cooldown filler that does not interact with the HP system. No matter how much they speed up HP gneration, we will always be one move short of having a complete rotation. Holy Wrath never did the job because of it's cooldown length. The readily available is the key here to make the rotation feel more fluid.

---------- Post added 2011-10-28 at 07:03 AM ----------

It is my opinion the class deserves a viable resource system. The resource system in place is heavily flawed. The fixes they propose here do not address the core underlying issues, therefore Paladins will still be left with a flawed resource model.

Is the model flawed? As a resource - yes. It doesn't do everything Blizzard needs or wants a resource to do. If it is unable to function as a resource, then as a resource it is broken. Therefore, while attempts to paper over a broken model will no doubt lead to improvements, Blizzard once again misses the mark and as a result, there is a real possibilityt hat other issues will rise later

This won't fix Paladins. It can't. Whether it provides enough of band aid to hold things together will have to wait.

EJL

That's an extremely bold statement when we have not seen the baseline toolkit. So far, the changes that I've seen and heard about have been all in positive directions. They have a few more steps to make before we can say that they have FIXED us (in itself a bold statement, because each class has their inherent problems. We are not special snowflakes when it comes to flaws) but these steps are all POSITIVE, and that is the most important thing right now. When we have not seen the entire picture, when we have not seen the baseline toolkit, the spec toolkit, any further changes to the talent designs, and most importantly, have not experience how the system functions in real time, it is very difficult to come to a conclusion. The most important thing, however, is that these changes are all things that are in a POSITIVE direction.

[zcks]

My point is in 5.0 (not talking about 4.3) there arent any other viable options for a ret to take in that tier. So I mention that they get a "free eternal glory" and that will encourage them to use the ability as quick survivability if they need to

The problem is that the WOG isn't guaranteed to be free though, chances are it would use up your holy power.

As I said a much better option would be to make it 33-66-100% chance to make your next WOG or LOD to refund all holy power, then simply give it an internal CD that varies dependent on spec. This would not only make it easier to balance but make it more reliable.

[Handsylton]

The problem is that the WOG isn't guaranteed to be free though, chances are it would use up your holy power.

As I said a much better option would be to make it 33-66-100% chance to make your next WOG or LOD to refund all holy power, then simply give it an internal CD that varies dependent on spec. This would not only make it easier to balance but make it more reliable.

I wouldn't say that WoG is the stand-alone choice for Ret in the 4th talent tier, at all though..

Selfless Healer, imho, is probably the most valuable for Ret, not only because of the cooldown on WoG, which limits the use of that talent entirely, but it also gives us a secondary role. The chances are, if we are spending WoG on HP to heal ourselves, the last thing we should be concerned about is doing damage. Staying alive would be the most important thing at that point. However, the ability to have free 100% FoL's during air phases where we can only attack occasionally, or periods of time away from the boss where our FREE FoL's can be used to help conserve very vital healer mana are always welcomed. That is utility that can not really be replaced. And no, Selfless Healer in no way pigeon-holes us into a support role. I'm tired of hearing this argument. There is no right choice in this tier especially, and they all offer their own functionality. The OPTION of having more utility and being able to offer more support should never be something to be scoffed at. Just look at druids. They are arguably the most "hybrid" of any class in the game, and half of their tree is based around being able to do multiple things at once. The biggest problem I see, is people are willing to forego extremely unique and important utility <--- NOT SUPPORT CLASS, but Utility, because all they want to do is roll their face across their keyboard. Well, sorry, but there is NO class in the game, regardless of pure or hybrid that has that mantra anymore.

Another quick point, Selfless Healer is the only talent in the 4th tier that does not require the spending of our main damage resource. That in itself makes it a wiser choice than either Eternal Glory or Holy Shield. IMHO of course.

[Jonuts]

With Hammer of the Righteous being baseline for both Ret and Prot, the chance that Divine Storm will move from an AoE HP builder to an AoE HP finisher seems eminent.

Which is, in my opinion at least, quite sad. DS is one of my most important abilities. Free heals = GG. Rather see something new for an AoE finisher.

[Handsylton]

Which is, in my opinion at least, quite sad. DS is one of my most important abilities. Free heals = GG. Rather see something new for an AoE finisher.

It was a nice secondary effect. Blizzard can easily implement another healing ability that takes the place of DS's healing. Not to mention, if DS keeps it's healing secondary effect and becomes a finisher, it will hit harder, thus the heal will hit harder. Not exactly the same, but close enough to make it a trivial difference.

[Jonuts]

Except when solo old shit, the DS heal ever ~4 seconds helps. Alot. Compared to double the healing every ~12 seconds. Of course, it's going to be an important matter of just how quickly HP builds as well. Personally, I'd love to keep DS as is, and maybe make it generate 1 HP no matter how many targets, but thats me

[Handsylton]

Except when solo old shit, the DS heal ever ~4 seconds helps. Alot. Compared to double the healing every ~12 seconds. Of course, it's going to be an important matter of just how quickly HP builds as well. Personally, I'd love to keep DS as is, and maybe make it generate 1 HP no matter how many targets, but thats me

It's an iconic spell for Ret. Blizz brought it back from a finisher a la 4.0 to the AoE builder because the look of flying golden hammers constantly circling the paladin became such a unique and defining image to the playerbase. We can assume that, in actuality, if that many abilities are granting HP in 5.0, DS, even as finisher, will happen quite frequently. At least once every 8 seconds. Increasing the spell effect would create the same visual, keeping that iconic and defining imagery while allowing for different functionality. Also, they can balance it to have the same amount of healing, regardless of how often it is used.

I agree that it would be a shame to reduce DS from that iconic imagery to something that rarely happens. We were spoiled in ICC with the T10 2pc bonus, literally being surrounded by hammers the whole fight. It had a really striking and awesome look to it, and I hope they preserve that in some way. The only problem is the cleave. It can not be a part of the single target rotation because it is a constant cleave, and Blizz stated they really really don't like that kind of mechanic (even though they butchered that whole concept with Holy Wrath as a filler but >.>). Hopefully they keep DS as a very functional spell that can be used often, because losing that imagery would be a shame.