Ideas for a total Paladin rework

[Leadfoot352]

This post contains what I feel would be a way to address several issues that we paladins currently have. This is my take on how Blizz can be rid of intellect plate; something they've been trying to do for years, rework paladin tanking to the new model; having to use your resource to now get murdered, and to fix the chunkiness and RNG of retribution's rotation.

Have fun with my ramblings.

Paladin mana will be removed entirely and replaced with an improved holy power system. All paladins will have 10 charges of holy power and will begin a fight with none. The powers a paladin uses will build holy power and others will use it. An example for each will be provided in separate sections below. The entire system is supposed to feel somewhat like the opposite of a warrior's rage bar, constantly fighting to keep your power somewhat full at all times.

Abilities that currently use holy power (Word of Glory, Templar's Verdict, etc) will now require 3 holy power to cast, and will always consume 3 holy power. Additionally these powers will be significantly increased, making them attractive to use, despite their rather large cost. This will allow paladins to split their holy power usage easily and hopefully take some of the "mathiness" of the system.

Protection paladins will be changed to use their holy power to protect and heal themselves. Protection "builders" would include Hammer of the Righteous and Crusader Strike. Protection "expenders" would include a series of reworked powers, many of which will grant the paladin buffs to his defensive stats. These will make the paladin more defensive than current when he is able to maintain them, but less when he cannot, forcing a paladin to spend his resource to stay alive. His mastery would be reworked to cause these effects to be more potent, allowing him the chance to decide to stack mastery if he is more skilled, but stack normal defensive stats while still learning his class.

Retribution paladins will be changed to use holy power in a constant balancing act. Retribution "builders" will include Crusader Strike and Judgment. For a retribution paladin Crusader Strike will generate two holy power, allowing them to build faster and stay up faster than protection paladins. Retribution paladins will use their holy power to perform strong weapon strikes, including several new powers. Retribution paladins will focus on using the current set of powers that already consume holy power, meaning that building to sets of three holy power will be important for them. Additionally to deal with retribution's current chunkiness and heavy RNG reliance their mastery is also getting an overhaul. Their new mastery will replace the current Inquisition buff, which many paladins have complained about, this new mastery will increase the amount of damage retribution's powers will do based on the number of charges of holy power the paladin has, forcing them to strike a constant balance between spending and building holy power.

Holy paladins will gain spell power, rather than attack power, from all sources, much like an enhancement shaman. The transfer of power will be complete, but will only occur on "bonus" attack power, so a holy paladin will still have their base strength to swing with. Holy's "builders" will be Holy Shock, which will generate two holy power charges, and Holy Light, which will generate one. Their "expenders" will be Flash of Light and Divine Light, which will cost two and one holy power each. This will force holy paladins to strike up a balance between using their less effective heals and their more powerful ones. They will have a passive that, in addition to causing their attack power to convert into spell power, will cause their holy power supply to "fade" or "darken" as the fight continues. Once a holy power has "darkened" it will not be able to be charged by any normal means. This will occur every 30 seconds, causing them to "oom" after about five minutes of fighting. The current paladin mana cooldowns will instead restore "darkened" charges of holy power. Their "spirit" stat will be a redesigned mastery which will increase the amount of time that a charge takes to "darken" which will effectively allow them to heal for longer. This will also paladins to expend itemization points on staying in a fight longer, just as other healers need to do now.

[Jorick]

This sort of system would require very precise balance, first off. Various Warrior specs have struggled with being resource starved in different patches and that problem could be even worse for a system with only 10 resource units and strict cooldowns regulating its generation. Also, having the holy power reset out of combat would kind of screw PvP Paladins. Anyway, aside from that bit, I'll go through each spec and give my thoughts.


The Prot ideas seem a little odd. I don't see how they would have any real need to balance this resource if all it really does for them is allow use of defensive cooldowns. They'd just build up holy power and hoard it until they need to use a defensive cooldown. That, or you give them too much to juggle with too little wiggle room and then the number of not-terrible Paladin tanks plummets significantly (similar to the Wrath to Cata changes, but potentially worse since it would be a core mechanic utterly changed rather than adding another layer to the old). Currently the system works like the former, and it's fine. But if you want to revamp the resource system for Paladin tanks but still leave them without really having to care about the resource, why not just make them fully cooldown based? However, Assuming the generation could be well balanced against a good suite of offensive, utility, and defensive options to spend the resource, making the choice of which of these types of spells to use a very important and strategic one, it could make tanking a more compelling experience... But how likely is that? Maybe it could be achieved after a few patches of Paladins swinging from useless to ridiculously OP and back, but even then a good balance may not be achievable.


The ideas for Ret might work. The mastery makes it very similar to Arcane Mages, which may be a good or bad thing. Again, very precise balance would have to be achieved to make this feel good rather than awful/OP beyond belief. I rarely play Ret though (actually, never have since BC, heh), so I don't have much to comment on here.


For Holy... Bad ideas. Having these silly artificial barriers to make in-fight resource use actually important seems, well, silly. Given the resource generation numbers and how often Holy Paladins use FoL/DL in ratio to HL/HS currently, the holy power costs in and of themselves on the powerful heals are not limiting anything. The fact that you had to come up with a secondary gating mechanic to make resources actually have to be managed shows that; also, unless HL/HS so weak that it's impossible to heal with only them for say a minute or so of a fight (which would in turn make Holy Paladins crappy healers), the "darkening" holy power thing wouldn't actually limit their healing significantly, and even if it did they could keep on healing until a cooldown came back up to restore the charges. Furthermore, since you seem to be aiming to make Holy Paladins not be infinite healing machines, why in the world are you giving them infinite HL/HS casts that not only cost nothing, but GENERATE resources? That is very, very counter-intuitive to your goals, assuming I'm correct in your goals for these Holy changes. The major mechanics overhaul aside, it would be a simple matter of tweaking the numbers on some spells to make Paladin healers actually have to care about mana: raise mana costs on spells and/or lower the healing done by some of the spells and/or lower the in-combat regeneration provided by Meditation. Much simpler than completely overhauling the class for a clunky system.

The only good idea that stems from the Holy bit is getting rid of Intellect plate. Either that or making another class that can make use of it is direly needed. Having to fill loot tables with items specifically for only 1 spec out of 30 (out of 33 come MoP) is silly. It's cool to have diversity in drops of each type, and yeah all the other armor classes have two major stat divisions on them, but keeping Int plate just for one spec is a poor choice.


Anyway, there are my thoughts on things. I'm very verbose, as anyone who reads this far already knows.

[Fredzilla]

Well the only problem I see with getting rid of int plate is having ANOTHER person to roll on other plate. Granted int plate is only for one spec, I don't necessarily think that putting another person rolling on dps plate is a good way to fix the problem.

[Talen]

Well the only problem I see with getting rid of int plate is having ANOTHER person to roll on other plate. Granted int plate is only for one spec, I don't necessarily think that putting another person rolling on dps plate is a good way to fix the problem.

Spellplate is an issue (albeit fairly minor) that does need to be addressed.

Ultimately, the problems associated with its presence boil down to the way it skews the loottables and distribution systems. The only way to solve those is to move Holydins over to another plate type, or make more specs use spell plate.

Moving Holy over to DPS Plate or Tanking plate will involve stat conversion/replacement of some sort. You either swap X Stat for Y SP or gain SP for X
stat.

The alternative is to change the scaling of the abilities so they scale with the new stats....e.g. SP scaling with STR, AP scaling with INT.

Between the two systems, the option to make more specs use Spellplate is perhaps more invasive, but ultimately a more elegant solution. Which specs could use SpellPlate? Off hand.....Ret and Prot Paladins could both be reworked to make use of spellplate. To avoid skewing the loottables with class only loot - as opposed to spec only loot - Unholy DK would also make a satisfactory recipient.

EJL

[Fredzilla]

I'm not saying it's not a problem that needs fixing, but as it is now, I think any solution that involves making spec(s) use a different type of gear with different stats would be, as you said, invasive. Granted, if they were to do such a thing, MoP would be the time to do it, but I doubt it will happen. I personally wouldn't want holy paladins rolling on dps plate with me, as I have enough trouble getting drops in the first place, and I don't know how I would feel about being a ret running around with 100k mana instead of 25k, or the fact that int would be useless for unholy. Granted, all of those are addressable if some change to the system were to go through, but it'd still be weird.

Then again, it wouldn't be a new xpac without some massive overhaul to paladins.

[willtron]

No, paladins dont need overhauling again, they can carry on sucking, the devs have better things to do.

If you don't have anything useful to say, please keep yourself from posting. - Malthanis

[Handsylton]

Or Holy Pallies could wear intellect mail, ya know, being Ele/Resto shamans are the only two specs that roll on that loot..

[Fredzilla]

No, paladins dont need overhauling again, they can carry on sucking, the devs have better things to do.

Go somewhere else you terrible, terrible troll.

I doubt they'd put holy pallies on int mail mostly because of the (rather large) design differences and then the lack of non-tier paladin design gear in raids.

[Talen]

Or Holy Pallies could wear intellect mail, ya know, being Ele/Resto shamans are the only two specs that roll on that loot..

Proposed and rejected.

Paladins wear plate.

EJL

[willtron]

No, paladins dont need overhauling again, they can carry on sucking, the devs have better things to do.

If you don't have anything useful to say, please keep yourself from posting. - Malthanis

i wasnt even trolling, christ, mods here are so eager to jump to trololol but tbh it's true, why should pallies get another overhaul when there are other aspects of the game that need it more?

[MestHoop]

i wasnt even trolling, christ, mods here are so eager to jump to trololol but tbh it's true, why should pallies get another overhaul when there are other aspects of the game that need it more?

While I kind of agree, it probably was your comment of "they can carry on sucking".
Prot needs an overhaul because all tanks do (rotation affecting survivability more), ret is almost in a good place right now and Holy.... I don't know enough about holy atm, but what I do know is that they're one of the better raid healers (IE healers in a raid, not healing the entire raid) atm, so yea... Mostly agree with willtron here.

[Malthanis]

i wasnt even trolling, christ, mods here are so eager to jump to trololol but tbh it's true, why should pallies get another overhaul when there are other aspects of the game that need it more?

If you have a problem with my actions, you can PM me about them. Don't derail the thread.

[Fredzilla]

While I kind of agree, it probably was your comment of "they can carry on sucking".
Prot needs an overhaul because all tanks do (rotation affecting survivability more), ret is almost in a good place right now and Holy.... I don't know enough about holy atm, but what I do know is that they're one of the better raid healers (IE healers in a raid, not healing the entire raid) atm, so yea... Mostly agree with willtron here.

I wouldn't say ret is as good, or as close to it, as you make it seem, since our resource is stupid and was implemented half-ass-edly, we have large CD reliance, and RNG plays for too large a role in our dps.

[Talen]

I wouldn't say ret is as good, or as close to it, as you make it seem, since our resource is stupid and was implemented half-ass-edly, we have large CD reliance, and RNG plays for too large a role in our dps.

Because Paladins didn't get the overhaul other classes did before Cataclysm.

Whether we like it or not, the development and integration of HP was rushed and unfinished and it shows.

The ideal solution would be a new resource rather than one that is viewed as "ripped off " from Rogues.

HP **CAN** be that solution, but for that to actually be the case, it needs improving so it can actually become a true resource and fill the role that it is needed for. The advantage of this approach is that the actual work on the system is already half done and it won't take much to make it different from a Rogues CPs - both the Monks system and the DKs system are simply variation on a CP system. 8 pips vs 6 vs 5; 2 types vs 3 vs 1.1

What does it need to be improved? It needs an energy analogue so the class can move away from the talents and CDs that try to emulate it. Sure, that can be emulatedm, but better one system than many. Mana can be integrated in some format for furtehr variation. Scalign needs to be adjusted - to 5 or 6 pips - so each pip isn't worth such a huge portion or the damage and there needs to be less disincentive to wait till max.

Other resource system based on trhe same basic model, or completely different are possible.

EJL

[Veliane]

Ret speaking we could change the useless auras and make it more like a monk.

Assuming you spec into Ret and passively you get a 3sec CD Crusader Strike.

Aura of Retribution:
Gets rid of your mana bar, gives you a Holy Power Bar (exactly like a Rogue energy Bar but golden)

Your instant cast abilities no longer cost anything (Judgement, Cleanse, Hands, Blessings, that sort of stuff)

Obvious Abilities that require mana will 'shift' you out (Redemption, Divine Light, etc)

Holy Power as Combo Points Remain -- Crusader Strike is the only Ability that can Generate Holy Power in this aura.

Holy Power Bar fills up over time and gives you HP Points passively at a rate of one Bar every 4.5 seconds, affected by haste effectively giving it an useful use! unlike that s*** Sanctity of Battle.

Word of Glory can be cast at it's fullest utility with only one Holy Power Point.

Zealotry gives all of your Holy Power abilities full benefit for one Holy Power Point while it's up.

This gives you:

Control of your damage.
Takes randomness out.
Protects you from being resource starved if trained, dodged or kited all day.
Moves your further away from cooldown reliance and punishment for being impaired (like old Zealotry without uptime sucks pretty bad)

Your heals are basically WoG (Instant 10sec CD) Selfless Healer FoL if you spec it (doesn't cost mana at 2 stacks therefore usable in Ret Aura) and Crusade Holy Light for the same reason.

Gives the reworked Pursuit of Justice more use with more HP to go around and basically full time 30% speed under Zealotry.

[Lyese]

Spellplate is an issue (albeit fairly minor) that does need to be addressed.

Ultimately, the problems associated with its presence boil down to the way it skews the loottables and distribution systems. The only way to solve those is to move Holydins over to another plate type, or make more specs use spell plate.

Moving Holy over to DPS Plate or Tanking plate will involve stat conversion/replacement of some sort. You either swap X Stat for Y SP or gain SP for X
stat.

The alternative is to change the scaling of the abilities so they scale with the new stats....e.g. SP scaling with STR, AP scaling with INT.

Between the two systems, the option to make more specs use Spellplate is perhaps more invasive, but ultimately a more elegant solution. Which specs could use SpellPlate? Off hand.....Ret and Prot Paladins could both be reworked to make use of spellplate. To avoid skewing the loottables with class only loot - as opposed to spec only loot - Unholy DK would also make a satisfactory recipient.

EJL

DK spells already scale solely with AP. If all Pally spells scaled with AP, Holy gear would fit almost perfectly with DPS plate (Crit, Haste, and Mastery being universal.) The only caveat here is the mana regen source. Perhaps roll it into Mastery?

[Korie]

I'd say paladins are just fine right now, no need to change it

[Talen]

DK spells already scale solely with AP. If all Pally spells scaled with AP, Holy gear would fit almost perfectly with DPS plate (Crit, Haste, and Mastery being universal.) The only caveat here is the mana regen source. Perhaps roll it into Mastery?

And holy would also be good at melee DPS. There are also other issues such as the size of the mana pool and how the mechancis would fit together and what changes you would wish or need to make. Also...there is the question of loot distribution; just as its bad to have too few classes chasing gear, its also bad to have too many. Blizzard improved the situation for leather by adding the Monk. It can't really do that for spellplate.

EJL

[Malthanis]

It can't really do that for spellplate.

Sure they can. Use the fourth spec precedent set by Druids and create a caster DPS Exorcist spec for paladins.

Now that I think about it, they've pushed the class system in to the same system that the Pathfinder RPG system has with the base classes and their archetypes. The system is now far better equipped to handle more specs per class than it was before.

[Deleted]

I'd prefer to see Frost & Unholy DK's retuned to use spellpower plate [they already use tons of spells anyway], that'd make 3 specs rolling for Intellect plate, 3 for strength plate and 3 for tank plate, happy days yay? ♥ Right now Damage plate is like gold-dust, tank plate goes straight to one person, caster plate might as well drop as disenchanted mats.

On Paladins specifically, get rid of inquisition and any other similar spells across the board, make holy power generation more responsive to when you are playing well/badly, aaand some real mobility. That's my list to Santa.