[Megathread] Firefall

[RoninaThorstone]

so are there any of you people on here who want to craft the BWA key? ive tried to people in game but no luck, dont even get any responses, red5 probably should make it more clear what the arcfold modulators are for. anyway add Gegalfo ingame and we can figure something out, i have 40k melded crystite so that should take us some of the way

Honestly, I think that the lack of information is intentional. When you read about how they deliver the lore of the game, they want it to be confusing. They want the player to feel like they are a greenhorn merc that just landed in a strange, fucked up situation.

Now, is this a good idea? Probably not. Most MMOers want to be handed the plot and given breadcrumbs (maybe even an auto walk button that takes them to the quest objective) so they just press their rotation and observe the game play out.
R5 wants people to read their manga, read their timeline, listen to the sin imprints, participate in the theory stuff on their forums.

Most the players I run into don't realize there are other zones, instances, a manga, a live action trailer, the timeline, hell... a bunch of them don't even realize the game takes place on earth.

[Endus]

Honestly, I think that the lack of information is intentional. When you read about how they deliver the lore of the game, they want it to be confusing. They want the player to feel like they are a greenhorn merc that just landed in a strange, fucked up situation.

Now, is this a good idea? Probably not. Most MMOers want to be handed the plot and given breadcrumbs (maybe even an auto walk button that takes them to the quest objective) so they just press their rotation and observe the game play out.
R5 wants people to read their manga, read their timeline, listen to the sin imprints, participate in the theory stuff on their forums.

The dev team is making this decision consciously and deliberately. They disagree with the design path in most MMOs, and are trying to do something different with Firefall, on purpose. They are specifically and deliberately designing the game to not appeal to everyone, in the hopes that there's enough of a market for what they feel is a better base design principle.

[RoninaThorstone]

The dev team is making this decision consciously and deliberately. They disagree with the design path in most MMOs, and are trying to do something different with Firefall, on purpose. They are specifically and deliberately designing the game to not appeal to everyone, in the hopes that there's enough of a market for what they feel is a better base design principle.

I think there's a slight disconnect between what the dev team wants and what they have the CMs like Phobos say. For example, on a firefall friday, Phobos was talking about how they have to make the game have mass market appeal. But yeah, I vaguely remember some dev talking about the sense of confusion they aim to give a new player (plot wise) a while back.

I mean, personally? I love it. I think it gives people another thing to talk about / think about when it comes to the game. What happened? What's the current situation? Where are we going? There's a sense of mystery that is 100% lacking in other MMOs (expect by accident when they write themselves into a corner and use vagueness as a cover for not know how to fix the plot). I mean, we know the story is done. It was written a while ago by/with Scott Orson Card (Enders game author). It's just a matter of waiting to find out more...

And I really want to know more about the tanken. Are they another resistance faction in the melding? Why are they fighting some of the last humans? Are we some of the last humans? Why do they tell us to think about joining the good guys (them)? Are they the good guys?

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, I just thought of something.

We know that someone was smuggling the Gifted south through shanty town. Maybe he was working with the tanken? They are out there in the melding... And able to walk around in the melding... Without being melded. How are they doing that? Is it only some people? Why can't I do that? Are the gifted aligned with the tanken? Are the Tanken against the chosen? Is it accord vs chosen vs tanken/gifted? WHATS HAPPENING???

[Vespian]

We know that someone was smuggling the Gifted south through shanty town. Maybe he was working with the tanken? They are out there in the melding... And able to walk around in the melding... Without being melded. How are they doing that? Is it only some people? Why can't I do that? Are the gifted aligned with the tanken? Are the Tanken against the chosen? Is it accord vs chosen vs tanken/gifted? WHATS HAPPENING???

Shoot first, try to find out stuff from the leftovers.

[PizzaSHARK]

The dev team is making this decision consciously and deliberately. They disagree with the design path in most MMOs, and are trying to do something different with Firefall, on purpose. They are specifically and deliberately designing the game to not appeal to everyone, in the hopes that there's enough of a market for what they feel is a better base design principle.

Too bad they didn't disagree with the overabundance of skimpy female armor, eh? :P

I think their whole "let's not really tell players anything in-game," is kind of backfiring on them, though. All of their official videos about Blackwater Anomaly and... well, just about everything PvE-related seem to try and make me care about the Chosen and how the Accord is fighting the good fight and... well, it just comes across as ridiculous. Maybe it wouldn't, if the game actually informed me about exactly who the Chosen and Accord are, or just about anything else in the setting.

[RoninaThorstone]

Too bad they didn't disagree with the overabundance of skimpy female armor, eh? :P

I think their whole "let's not really tell players anything in-game," is kind of backfiring on them, though. All of their official videos about Blackwater Anomaly and... well, just about everything PvE-related seem to try and make me care about the Chosen and how the Accord is fighting the good fight and... well, it just comes across as ridiculous. Maybe it wouldn't, if the game actually informed me about exactly who the Chosen and Accord are, or just about anything else in the setting.

Yeah. The dev team doesn't want you :P

And the pro accord videos are suppose to feel like propaganda, I think. There's some evidence that Nostromo might be as bad as Graves.

[PizzaSHARK]

Yeah. The dev team doesn't want you :P

I'm left with the impression that the demographic they're targeting isn't very large. The people that played vanilla and TBC WoW have, largely, grown up and now have responsibilities and other stuff

And the pro accord videos are suppose to feel like propaganda, I think. There's some evidence that Nostromo might be as bad as Graves.

Who is as bad as who?

[RoninaThorstone]

Who is as bad as who?

Admiral Nostromo = Current leader of the Accord (mainly due to everyone else being dead). Basically, he has been driven mad by his wife and son being killed and seems to be using the SIN network to become omnipotent. It's unclear what his plan is beyond that, it might be that he hopes to take direct control over the surviving humans through the SIN network much as Graves has taken control of the victims of the melding. The live trailer starts by showing Nostromo in a dark room watching clips of his wife and son.


Graves = The first chosen. When the melding breached the atmosphere it made a beeline for Graves, Pilgrams father, probably due to him being the strongest affinity (psychic) on the planet. Also, the melding suggests that there is some degree of darkness already in Graves when it promises him power.

[Endus]

I think their whole "let's not really tell players anything in-game," is kind of backfiring on them, though. All of their official videos about Blackwater Anomaly and... well, just about everything PvE-related seem to try and make me care about the Chosen and how the Accord is fighting the good fight and... well, it just comes across as ridiculous. Maybe it wouldn't, if the game actually informed me about exactly who the Chosen and Accord are, or just about anything else in the setting.

They're trying to communicate story, in-game. They're not trying to guide players by the hand through every single step of learning the ropes. That's where the intended openness and confusion comes in. They want part of the game to be figuring out what's expected of you, and how to go about accomplishing that. That's why most MMOs have zones with solid level definitions, and just enough quests to get you high enough for the next zone, with a final quest that says "hey, let's go to this next zone that's just the right difficulty for your new level". To hand-hold players so they don't have to figure that stuff out. In Firefall, the difficulties are mixed together (though labelled, since the goal isn't punishing obtuseness), and your goals are somewhat more ephemeral (get resources, build Arcfold keys, get pieces for BWA key) than in most other MMOs.

If they wanted to follow the design of other MMOs, you'd have quests saying "hey, let's go kill 15 Arahnas. Look, there's a mission 80 metres away we just spawned that conveniently has Arahnas." That's the step Red5 is skipping out on deliberately.

[Belsebob]

Hey guys , this game looks good, I've signed up for the beta, how long does it take to get a beta key?

[djlegit83]

Hey guys , this game looks good, I've signed up for the beta, how long does it take to get a beta key?

It is fun, Its also open beta.

No need to wait for a key, create an account. Download the game and play.

[PizzaSHARK]

They're trying to communicate story, in-game. They're not trying to guide players by the hand through every single step of learning the ropes. That's where the intended openness and confusion comes in. They want part of the game to be figuring out what's expected of you, and how to go about accomplishing that. That's why most MMOs have zones with solid level definitions, and just enough quests to get you high enough for the next zone, with a final quest that says "hey, let's go to this next zone that's just the right difficulty for your new level". To hand-hold players so they don't have to figure that stuff out. In Firefall, the difficulties are mixed together (though labelled, since the goal isn't punishing obtuseness), and your goals are somewhat more ephemeral (get resources, build Arcfold keys, get pieces for BWA key) than in most other MMOs.

If they wanted to follow the design of other MMOs, you'd have quests saying "hey, let's go kill 15 Arahnas. Look, there's a mission 80 metres away we just spawned that conveniently has Arahnas." That's the step Red5 is skipping out on deliberately.

I'm not saying I have a problem with the gameplay, I just feel their method of developing the story is too reliant on things outside the game. I don't want to have to spend an hour watching videos and reading cheesy comic books just to know the major plot elements. I've had fun enough just running around and shooting Chosen, but if they want the story to have impact, I need to know why I'm actually shooting Chosen, beyond red = dead... and there isn't really much of anything in-game that explains that, other than the fact that the Chosen happily shoot at you if they see you.

They can knock the linear quest system all they'd like, and it can be pretty archaic at times, but I don't think anyone can deny that Blizzard was able to create some fantastic quest lines with a surprising amount of narrative in them.

[RoninaThorstone]

I'm not saying I have a problem with the gameplay, I just feel their method of developing the story is too reliant on things outside the game. I don't want to have to spend an hour watching videos and reading cheesy comic books just to know the major plot elements. I've had fun enough just running around and shooting Chosen, but if they want the story to have impact, I need to know why I'm actually shooting Chosen, beyond red = dead... and there isn't really much of anything in-game that explains that, other than the fact that the Chosen happily shoot at you if they see you.

They can knock the linear quest system all they'd like, and it can be pretty archaic at times, but I don't think anyone can deny that Blizzard was able to create some fantastic quest lines with a surprising amount of narrative in them.

I feel like I've tried saying this a few ways, now I will be blunt.

I don't think that this game is designed for your demographic. In fact, I am pretty sure the dev team is trying to alienate you.

Now, I don't like cooking mama. But that's okay because the game wasn't designed for my demographic. That doesn't mean that cooking mama is bad or was poorly designed, it just means that the dev team of cooking mama wasn't thinking "Hmm. What about late 20s married men?" when they made their game. The R5 team takes it a bit further by trying to make it difficult for your demographic to enjoy the game... Intentionally.

(maybe that will change when they add "into the mists" but I doubt it)

[PizzaSHARK]

You say that, but... they added loot drops specifically due to a segment of their players whining about the game not having them. Up to that point, I'd just assumed that the game wasn't targeting those sorts of players. I think the loot drops are well done and it's fun finding the occasional nice piece of loot (found a Chosen Heavy Armor II that has a long cooldown, but basically grants invulnerability for its 7 seconds of duration), but not having loot drops and players crafting everything was supposed to be a major draw for Firefall.

I think the problem is that if they want to make Firefall financially successful (and given the scope of the project, I think they have to do this to see a return on their investment), they can't be content to appeal just to a relatively small niche of players - there has to be broader-ranged appeal. It's possible that thumping, ARES missions, etc will be able to provide that, but since Firefall is F2P, they have to try and convince those players to spend money on starter packs and Red Beans; how often have you felt like buying Red Beans to be able to do ARES missions, thumpers, and other stuff like that?

This is assuming that Firefall doesn't become a successful eSports franchise, though; I think the gameplay is anemic and boring as hell to watch, but if it does find success, I imagine the income from that would allow them to do mostly whatever they want

[RoninaThorstone]

You say that, but... they added loot drops specifically due to a segment of their players whining about the game not having them. Up to that point, I'd just assumed that the game wasn't targeting those sorts of players. I think the loot drops are well done and it's fun finding the occasional nice piece of loot (found a Chosen Heavy Armor II that has a long cooldown, but basically grants invulnerability for its 7 seconds of duration), but not having loot drops and players crafting everything was supposed to be a major draw for Firefall.

I think the problem is that if they want to make Firefall financially successful (and given the scope of the project, I think they have to do this to see a return on their investment), they can't be content to appeal just to a relatively small niche of players - there has to be broader-ranged appeal. It's possible that thumping, ARES missions, etc will be able to provide that, but since Firefall is F2P, they have to try and convince those players to spend money on starter packs and Red Beans; how often have you felt like buying Red Beans to be able to do ARES missions, thumpers, and other stuff like that?

This is assuming that Firefall doesn't become a successful eSports franchise, though; I think the gameplay is anemic and boring as hell to watch, but if it does find success, I imagine the income from that would allow them to do mostly whatever they want

This is really dated but, as I said, the impression that all the story is outside of the game may change when they introduce the episodic campaigns (the first of which is probably S-Day)

*But I have my doubts. I think they really enjoy sending the community on, essentially, a scavenger hunt.

[Endus]

You say that, but... they added loot drops specifically due to a segment of their players whining about the game not having them. Up to that point, I'd just assumed that the game wasn't targeting those sorts of players. I think the loot drops are well done and it's fun finding the occasional nice piece of loot (found a Chosen Heavy Armor II that has a long cooldown, but basically grants invulnerability for its 7 seconds of duration), but not having loot drops and players crafting everything was supposed to be a major draw for Firefall.

They're still basically there. They had some hiccups with some of the Chosen items and their scaling, but the dropped loot is irreparable. That's a really big deal. It lasts a lot less than a crafted piece would, plus, by crafting, you're no longer at the mercy of RNG. Dropped loot is great for filling in a gap here or there, but it isn't a replacement for crafting.

I think the problem is that if they want to make Firefall financially successful (and given the scope of the project, I think they have to do this to see a return on their investment), they can't be content to appeal just to a relatively small niche of players - there has to be broader-ranged appeal.

This really isn't true. They're not trying to be the next WoW. They're aiming more for an experience like that of EvE Online. Which has been a solid success and is still going, 10 years after launch. And growing. It just hit 500,000 subscribers, last February.

Now, 500,000 subs seems really low compared to WoW, but that's the wrong comparison to make. You don't need to match WoW to be a success. That's like saying that Wendy's hamburger joints are a complete failure, because they aren't keeping up with McDonalds. The gaming market is huge. There's plenty of room for niche games, and in fact, most games should be aiming for niches.

[Vespian]

This really isn't true. They're not trying to be the next WoW. They're aiming more for an experience like that of EvE Online. Which has been a solid success and is still going, 10 years after launch. And growing. It just hit 500,000 subscribers, last February.

Now, 500,000 subs seems really low compared to WoW, but that's the wrong comparison to make.

The wrong comparison so far is being made by you. Firefall doesn't offer what EVE offers and if they progress as slow as they have over the last 2.5 years, they won't even make it to release.

[Endus]

The wrong comparison so far is being made by you. Firefall doesn't offer what EVE offers and if they progress as slow as they have over the last 2.5 years, they won't even make it to release.

You're missing the point.

EvE aimed for a niche market that wasn't terribly new-player-friendly. They have been a strong success story.

Firefall is doing the same thing, though aiming at a slightly different niche since they're entirely different games. The point was that aiming for a niche market does not mean your game will fail.

[Rooflesstoofless]

I feel like I've tried saying this a few ways, now I will be blunt.

I don't think that this game is designed for your demographic. In fact, I am pretty sure the dev team is trying to alienate you.

Now, I don't like cooking mama. But that's okay because the game wasn't designed for my demographic. That doesn't mean that cooking mama is bad or was poorly designed, it just means that the dev team of cooking mama wasn't thinking "Hmm. What about late 20s married men?" when they made their game. The R5 team takes it a bit further by trying to make it difficult for your demographic to enjoy the game... Intentionally.

If you are so sure about who they are trying to alienate then who exactly are they trying to be inclusive of?

[Vespian]

You're missing the point.

EvE aimed for a niche market that wasn't terribly new-player-friendly. They have been a strong success story.

Firefall is doing the same thing, though aiming at a slightly different niche since they're entirely different games. The point was that aiming for a niche market does not mean your game will fail.

I was actually talking in perspectives. I didn't say Firefall had to change to a Math based game. I said that, or meant that, EVE offers gameplay for a very diverse group of players, within that niche. Firefall in it's current form, can't offer much to most of those player-types within the niche.