No more healing in prot/ret, death of the hybrid?

[minteK917]

FoL costs 1/3 of our mana, I'd like the option to have a slower, lower mana cost heal. It seems like they are simply taking away choices from ret. Can only use tv at 3hp, cannot hardcast exo, taking away healing options, taking away our utility of aoe stunning undead/demons/elementals(if glyphed). While there are some nice changes in there, overall I'm pretty disappointed with the ret tree.

Again as i said you simply dont see or simply dont want to see the bigger picture. Its what you whiner usualy do best.

#1 fol mana cost, you forget or simply ignore the fact that everyone will have the same ammount of mana. Ret will have a 100k+ mana pool like holy in mop.
#2 cant use TV without 3 holy power, you never did unless you were very bad. Good paladin used Inquisition with -3 holy power as a start up and its still possible.
#3 again hard casting exo is not a loss in a world where a 6 second cooldown 30 yard judgement gives you holy power and has its cooldown reduced by haste. Oh did i mention exorcism proc also give holy power.
#3 lost of an ok utility in holy wrath, but gained stuff like blinding light, snare, better laotl, more consistant damage.
#4 we actually gained better healing with the wog revert.
#5 less rng damage with most ability giving holy power.

In short, blizzard gave us everything we asked for but you guys wont be happy until they give us the freaking moon.

[Deleted]

Again as i said you simply dont see or simply dont want to see the bigger picture. Its what you whiner usualy do best.

#1 fol mana cost, you forget or simply ignore the fact that everyone will have the same ammount of mana. Ret will have a 100k+ mana pool like holy in mop.
#2 cant use TV without 3 holy power, you never did unless you were very bad. Good paladin used Inquisition with -3 holy power as a start up and its still possible.
#3 again hard casting exo is not a loss in a world where a 6 second cooldown 30 yard judgement gives you holy power and has its cooldown reduced by haste. Oh did i mention exorcism proc also give holy power.
#3 lost of an ok utility in holy wrath, but gained stuff like blinding light, snare, better laotl, more consistant damage.
#4 we actually gained better healing with the wog revert.
#5 less rng damage with most ability giving holy power.

In short, blizzard gave us everything we asked for but you guys wont be happy until they give us the freaking moon.

Delete this thread, and make this post a sticky. At least some good will come of it then.

[MasterHamster]

Holy

• Greater Heal is now exclusive to Discipline & Holy.
• Prayer of Mending is now exclusive to Discipline & Holy.
• Renew is now exclusive to Holy.
• Heal is now exclusive to Holy.
• Binding Heal is now exclusive to Holy.
• Divine Hymn is now exclusive to Holy.
• Hymn of Hope is now exclusive to Discipline.

/Shadow
But hey, still got Vampiric Dominance.. at level 90 lol

[Vuagnon]

I think they have taken the right approach about limiting the healing abilities of Prot&Ret. Most of those spells (HL and DL most specifically and HR can be added to this list after 4.3) felt redundant for them anyway.

[Senka]

The other issue here is that Blizzard's definition of hybrid is not the same as this definition. Blizzard's definition of a hybrid class is one that can perform a different role by switching specializations. That's it. I understand your definition of hybrid is based on other video games, but a hybrid in WoW simply means being able to do more than one role within the same class but not the same specialization.
Under these rules, it's practically a bonus to be able to do any meaningful healing to another target. Many other classes' healing is just self-healing.

[lakhesis]

The spells removed were already basically non-starters for prot.. too much mana, not enough return, and cast timed too.

On the other hand, now we've got instant WoG back and abilities like Divine Purpose & Eternal Glory, we could potentially be throwing WoG heals all over the place. 30% chance to get double WoGs, plus a 15% chance to get a freebie 3pt WoG each cast? There're going to be a lot of occasions where we won't need the extra healing ourselves and get to WoG others (or cast Holy Shield on them in the case of prot).

I expect to see prot paladins particularly throwing out a hell of a lot more healing if these changes go through as written.

[MrSerious]

but now we can't even out heal a blood dk casting.

could we ever?

they are streamlining the game (dumbing it down) for the masses.

[zcks]

The reason they are removing allot of the paladins ability to hybridize is because they know there is only 1 way it can ever be balanced, that way is to give the class some sort of stance/presence/form system.

The designers admitted as such during cataclysm alpha/beta, but the management is dead set against paladins ever getting one even though they know it would only help game balance.
That leaves only 2 options 1: make the classes ability to fill secondary roles very gimped or 2: make them somewhat alright but watch other people complain that its OP.

So their going with the first.

If you want proof of this just look at the improvement druids are getting. It's because they have a stance/presence/form system which locks out one set of abilities while they use the other.

Sadly they still won't improve that much upon ret's effectiveness vs ranged either meaning that not only can the ret not effectively off heal now he/she will still be kited to hell.
I mean sure a snare does help some but it's crap when HOF is instantly dispelled & you can still be CC chained insuring you never reach your target.

[Jonuts]

Our removed AoE stun is replaced with a cover all AoE BLIND EFFECT THAT IS NOT TYPE RESTRICTIVE.

Let me fix that for you. Our 15 Second CD AoE stun (with restrictions) is replaced with a 180 Second AoE blind. I find this a failure. Instead of an easy-to-use-always-there-oh-shit-button, we get a 3 minute cooldown. The only reason it's not an outright loss is because it's no longer restricted by enemy type. I'd rather have seen Holy Wrath moved back to being utility, instead of removed however.

I see the word Solo, I assume people mean old content as questing and other solo activities are so trivial/easy that I find it hard to make any real complaints. Self healing isn't much of an issue when you're two shotting mobs.

do you remember dinging 85? Maybe going to Tol Barad, where the enemies have almost as much life as you and by the time you kill them, you've lose over half your life bar? Questing was a fucking pain in the ass in 4.0 as a ret paladin. Our ramp up time was too large, our damage without ramp up time was shit, and our healing was severely neutered. It became less of a game and more of a chore until you started getting some gear. May god have mercy on your soul if you accidently pulled 3 mobs. Of course, you could have sidestepped the whole process by repeatedly queuing for dungeons then heroics and having 346ilvl before questing, instead of having 310ilvl.

Seriously, try fighting all the normal mobs in straight greens. Go for it. As long as you keep it 1 on 1, it's still easy, if time consuming. Go accidently pull 2 and see how many CD's you have to blow. This is what your healing tools are for, minimizing downtime between pulling mobs that are appropriate to your level/gear. If you're running around in T12, you would probably have to pull 7-8 mobs at once to even have to blow a CD or require healing. What tools you need to survive without it being more annoying than not, change drastically when you massively outgear/level the content. I can do Cata quests with nothing more than my Crusader Strike button nowadays. I needed *ALOT* more when I actually did them though, you know, in quest gear instead of raid gear.

[Jerion]

It takes me over 10 casts of Holy Light with no crits or crusade to heal over 100k health.

I would rather have holy light from crusade, supplication, because it is AFTER your target is dead, meaning your casting a few extra seconds will not hurt.

Templar's Verdict before 3 HP is LESS THAN HALF AS POWERFUL making is useless in all situations and the tool of the foolish. Exorcism hard casted ooms us and does no damage.

I wasn't clear in my post, but the setup we have right now is not a good option either. It should scale linearly, like every other combo point system in the game. The trade off for using it at 1 or 2 hp should be the gcd.

Our removed AoE stun is replaced with a cover all AoE BLIND EFFECT THAT IS NOT TYPE RESTRICTIVE.

On a cooldown that is 6x as long.



On a side note, supplication is a leveling/questing/bging talent. It will not help you solo old content. At all.

On another side note, having survivability tied to rng is not fun. (eternal glory)

[Darkchickens]

At least WoG and FoL are still available. In 4.3 HR isn't going to be worth using as a ret anymore. And when i do pvp I bubble ad FoL not DL to regain health. The slow cast time makes it much better imo, but I don't pvp much anymore.

[Rust in Peace]

A good ret would have only ever used word of glory to heal themselves, flash of light at the right times though not nearly as often and used holy radiance in a last ditch effort if they got focused for some extremely weak extra healing. Holy light right now is only viable after a kill so it makes sense for them to change that to FOL since it was already our go to heal if we could LOS long enough to get the cast off.

This is an improvement. Don't let the doomsayers convince you otherwise. They just make everybody else look bad.

[zcks]

I would rather have holy light from crusade, supplication, because it is AFTER your target is dead, meaning your casting a few extra seconds will not hurt.


I wasn't clear in my post, but the setup we have right now is not a good option either. It should scale linearly, like every other combo point system in the game. The trade off for using it at 1 or 2 hp should be the gcd.


On another side note, having survivability tied to rng is not fun. (eternal glory)

On the first part I kind of agree, however it should make the cast instant as well. Vs any type of intelligent opponent your cast will get stopped via interrupt or CC.

Completely agree on the second part, though ret should never have to rely on a finisher as a filler. It should have enough fillers to have very few if any dead zones.

Also completely agree on the last part as well. Frankly they should make it a bit more akin to the frost talent fingers of frost, by that I mean make it a bit more like this

Eternal Glory: Causes your next word of glory or light of dawn cast to refund all holy power consumed.
Then simply have the cool down vary dependent upon the spec the paladin is, that way you can plan a bit & be strategic instead of being reliant on luck.

[Jerion]

I like the implication there Dio. Nobody has really said anything about holy radiance, I've used divine light after killing people when i didn't get the killing blow. The spell we cast after getting a kb changing from holy light to FoL isn't a huge deal, but its putting a big mana cost on it with no benefit because the cast time shortened after combat is not needed.

[Rust in Peace]

I'm not sure what you mean about cost. If you mean that FOL cost more than Holy light than yeah I guess the cost is increased a little. But if we are talking strictly about the heal we use to consume the 300% benefit cost after a KB then the cost is pretty irrelevant since we only cast it once.

[Jerion]

mana cost. on live 2800 vs 7200

[Defender]

If you're worried about mana cost of Flash of Light, then the Selfless Healer talent is there for your choosing.

If you want the Holy Radiance effect, then Speed of Light talent is there for you.

Also, the loss of Holy Light and Divine Light frees up 2 keybinds for me, leaving Hammer of the Righteous and Blinding Light good replacements.

[Calibar]

I hope they do why should the hybrids be op to the dedicated classes?

I'm sorry no this isn't correct at all. I was in an arena with my mate, he's a ret paladin and we had a fight against 2 rogues. We nuked one rogue down as fast as we could but he just disappeared and then the cc started happening, so these 2 invisible rogues are there using recuperate and getting health back and what not. Anyways my ret pala friend was healing like a champ keeping us up and in the end I died killing one of the rogues and it was down to him and the other rogue. Long story short my mate lost.

So to our surprise when we checked healing done, my mate like I said healed like a champ but despite that one of the rogues out healed him by something like 100k


Just ridiculous. So the pure heals better than a hybrid, can vanish and leave combat at will, has shit loads of cc, does tonnes of damage and did I mention out heal a hybrid class?

[Cernunnos]

Good, maybe for once my PVE Prot paladin will stop getting nerfed as a result of Ret's healing in PVP.

[Rivin]

The spell we cast after getting a kb changing from holy light to FoL isn't a huge deal, but its putting a big mana cost on it with no benefit because the cast time shortened after combat is not needed.

Yes, but notice that the mana restoration effects of Judgements of the Wise/Bold are gone as well. Blizzard has talked about revamping the mana and regeneration systems in MoP, so it's possible that the mana cost (especially out of combat) won't matter. Sheath of Light increasing Ret's mana regen by 10% won't matter much if regen isn't quick already, so base regen will probably be a lot faster than it is now. And, of course, with the mana system being changed, it's likely that Flash of Light's mana cost will be changed as well.