why Hiroshima or Nagasaki?

[NineSpine]

I think it was the other way around.

People forget even after the second bomb was dropped that the Japenese didn't surrender.

What made the empreror surrender was that we flew squadrons of B-29 over Japan as if to say, all these planes have bombs and if you don't surrender we will drop them.

People also forget that the firebombing of Tokoyo was more horrific that the bomb and they still didn't surrender. They were that stubborn and if it wasn't for the stuborness the bomb would not have been dropped.

Learn your history you little uneducated morons.

Hi, I have two graduate degrees involving U.S. foreign relations.

[Ohly]

Even though it's not directly related to the atomic bombings, I would just like to point something out regarding the ethics of the second world war that is often overlooked.

Almost the whole focus of the war are on two things: the German prison and death camps and the atomic bombings of Japan. While both are extremely tragic, something that in my opinion gets VASTLY overlooked is the extreme suffering of the civilian population of the Soviet Union and Germany. Honestly, NO countries got hit worse than those two, although the Soviet Union had it worst.

It's estimated that around 27 million Russian citizens died due to the war, that includes soldiers and civilians. To put that in contrast, the war claimed 40 million lives in Europe (the East Front war included). Basically, more than half (roughly 65 %) of the victims of the war in Europe were Russian, a vast majority being civilians.

Germany didn't fare much better. While the direct casualties in the war "only" ended up at roughly 5 million soldiers and another few million (unknown exactly how many) civilians, the German population who lived in the eastern parts of Germany and nearby territories (around 13 million) were expelled, resulting in at least another 500 000 deaths. In addition, hundreds of thousand, possibly millions, of German women were raped by Allied (mainly Soviet, but also British and American to some extent) troops during the occupation of Germany.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention China, who had one hell of a terrible time during the war. I sadly do not know enough about their role to write more about them, but they definitely deserve a mention.

[Therdin]

o rly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_...n_of_Manchuria

---------- Post added 2011-11-28 at 08:19 PM ----------



Your attempt to automatically even the score because it's all war is weak and pointless. To infer that the British and the Germans who carried out the holocaust are on even ground is morally repugnant and a sad, sad effort to absolve your own country of responsibility.

What responsibility? Some responsibility a mouth breather on the internet claims it has? All war is wrong, period. In war you do what you need to do to win, morality is second, or third to that. what is repugnant is some jackass 66 years after the fact talking like he understands the thought process of people back then. They lived in a time you can't comprehend, and had to make choices you can't possibly fathom.

[MasterOfNone]

Lol that is your defense? A wiki map? Lol. You made the statement that USA needed to wait a couple weeks. What you are inferring is that the Russians would have had a substantial foothold in asia that they could hold back the Japanese. Whenever winter is realistically the only thing that stopped the Germans from taking over Russian cities. They wona battle on a front that didn't mean much at the time and got lucky the Germans died by the thousands due to winter. And by this strategy you think the us should have waited on thier atomic campaign? Even after the emporer was told to surrender and leaflets were dropped? My god sir you are delusional and extremely un-educated about this matter.

[punkbusster]

Hi, I have two graduate degrees involving U.S. foreign relations.

LOL, so. Most politicians have that too and look at them.

I suggest you do more studying.

The dropping of the bomb, had to be done, or else there would have been more deaths from an invasion than the dropping of the bomb, get a grip.

[Venant]

People would be surprised how borderline genocidal the United States is. Many Americans, in response to 9/11 in which we had over 3,000 killed, wanted to pretty much turn the middle east into a glass desert, which would have resulted in the deaths of millions. Our crazy foreign policy has now put us on course for a confrontation with Pakistan, a country which actually has nuclear weapons.

[NineSpine]

What responsibility? Some responsibility a mouth breather on the internet claims it has? All war is wrong, period. In war you do what you need to do to win, morality is second, or third to that. what is repugnant is some jackass 66 years after the fact talking like he understands the thought process of people back then. They lived in a time you can't comprehend, and had to make choices you can't possibly fathom.

You picked the wrong guy. I work in the Middle East. Don't tell me about hard decisions involving people's lives. I've lived for extended periods in warzones. I've seen it firsthand. Don't give me your smarmy bullshit.

[Wells]

LOL, so. Most politicians have that too and look at them.

I suggest you do more studying.

That's one hell of a logical fallacy.

[NineSpine]

LOL, so. Most politicians have that too and look at them.

I suggest you do more studying.

The dropping of the bomb, had to be done, or else there would have been more deaths from an invasion than the dropping of the bomb, get a grip.

The question is whether there was a valid reason to not wait to see if Japan was going to surrender under the threat of Soviet land invasion. Do you have a valid reason or not?

And no, most politicians do not have graduate degrees in international relations. I sometimes do consulting for U.S politicians. They are buffoons at best.

[IIBlackmagikII]

It may not have been the first time in history, but it was one of the most prominent encounters with a military force (Japan) that would be fine with its self-destruction so long as it was at the expense of the American military, which was now split between two wars on opposite sides of the planet. The US military had little experience against an ideology that said an intentional death to kill an enemy (especially multiple) was actually a victory. The agreed upon way to shake such an incredibly persistent and effective ideology at the time, was to display overwhelming power - an attack of the spirit and culture rather than more military skirmishes, which only embolden a self-destructive ideology.

Not that this warrants using a bomb directly against civilians, but when factoring in the militancy of Japan's civilians at the time, plus some high priority military targets within the two major cities, it makes them more sensible targets.

Unethical and bordering on the immoral, but effective.

At least the two countries became and remain extremely close friends and allies today. Perhaps this reinforces the notion that ground troops staying for long periods of time in foreign countries is far worse if one desires a future partnership.

[NineSpine]

Lol that is your defense? A wiki map? Lol. You made the statement that USA needed to wait a couple weeks. What you are inferring is that the Russians would have had a substantial foothold in asia that they could hold back the Japanese. Whenever winter is realistically the only thing that stopped the Germans from taking over Russian cities. They wona battle on a front that didn't mean much at the time and got lucky the Germans died by the thousands due to winter. And by this strategy you think the us should have waited on thier atomic campaign? Even after the emporer was told to surrender and leaflets were dropped? My god sir you are delusional and extremely un-educated about this matter.

Yeah, none of that really addresses anything I said.

[Therdin]

You picked the wrong guy. I work in the Middle East. Don't tell me about hard decisions involving people's lives. I've lived for extended periods in warzones. I've seen it firsthand. Don't give me your smarmy bullshit.

I live in 1945, i've got a time machine, so i've seen all this first hand. I said it so it must be true

Think it's pretty sad you would think living in the middle east some how is on par with living in a time that 40million people died due to 1 war.

[NineSpine]

I live in 1945, i've got a time machine, so i've seen all this first hand. I said it so it must be true

Hey look, the subject changed from how wrong you were, how curious. Good job.

[Therdin]

Hey look, the subject changed from how wrong you were, how curious. Good job.

read my edit son

[Scathbais]

When someone attacks you, kills your people, destroys your military, takes your citizens prisoner, turns them into slaves, tortures them and kills them then their is little moral ambiguity. You do WHATEVER you need to to protect your citizens.

Better to drop the bombs on civilian populations than the cost in additional American lives from trying to end the killing in a more "ethical" manner

[NineSpine]

read my edit son

I think that you've made it clear by your desire to do nothing but to talk about me personally that you really don't have any interest in this actual topic, probably due to the obvious sheer ignorance you've displayed.

[MasterOfNone]

Nvm. Sometimes explaining things to people who will never care to see anything but thier way get lost in translation. I'm sure to someone without "two degrees" who uses a little common sense reading your posts can put two and two together.

[Purlina]

I find it strange how killing civilians was okay to obtain a surrender from Japan.

But should the same happen to someone's country today people start wagging their fingers and crying foul...

[NineSpine]

Nvm. Sometimes explaining things to people who will never care to see anything but thier way get lost in translation. I'm sure to someone without "two degrees" who uses a little common sense reading your posts can put two and two together.

If you can't answer the simple question, then yes there is nothing to explain. What would have been lost by waiting to see if Russia's imminent land invasion caused Japan to surrender?

You act like I made this shit up. I can provide you with numerous scholarly works involving this topic. Numerous political and war historians have cited the dropping of the atomic bombs as secondary to the invasion of Manchuria in the first place. The Japanese leadership was deeply afraid of Russia.

[Therdin]

I think that you've made it clear by your desire to do nothing but to talk about me personally that you really don't have any interest in this actual topic, probably due to the obvious sheer ignorance you've displayed.

well I guess sense you said it I must be just plan ignorant. Man I guess I just have to take that and believe it.

The topic was why Hiroshima and Nagasaki, what exactly does decrying the immorality of the act have to do with why it was done? OP didn't ask if it was moral, he just asked why, which I touched upon on my first post.

If you reply back with because america is immoral and that's why they did it, well I would look in the mirror if you want to find the ignorant person