4.3 Holy Paladin - How much spirit?

[Deleted]

The more spirit, the better.

Really though, it highly depends on the way you play. I've found that stacking spirit and after that haste works the best for me. I do not sacrifice int for spirit though, as intellect gives a high amount of throughput and a small amount of regen through Divine Plea.
That said, I'm over 4000 spirit fully raid buffed and trinket stacked.

[Theholypally]

What are you all doing during the fights where you claim to have no mana issues? And is it 25s or 10s? I run 10 man mostly, two healers until spine and madness, I'm guessing you all are three healing 10s if you have no mana issues. Idk just seems to me like people who have "no mana issues" aren't really pushing their limits.

I'm at 3181 right now, before DMC stacks up. I'm using DMC over normal mode Jaws atm until Unliving drops...hopefully sometime this century.

All I can say is that I'd love more spirit if I can get it (that's why I want the HoU so bad)

[Deleted]

I'm guessing you all are three healing 10s if you have no mana issues. Idk just seems to me like people who have "no mana issues" aren't really pushing their limits.

lol, no. I 2heal H Morchok, H Yor'sahj, H Ultraxion, N Gunship and have no issues in them. 3heal H Zon'ozz and H Hagara (though hagara is 2healable if you have an offspec tranq/hymn aswell as a mainspec one for lightning phase) and N Spine and N Madness. I do not know where you pulled that out. I do not have mana issues in any encounter. It comes down to knowing what heals to use and when to use them and not wasting mana on heals your raid doesn't need. You should also know when to use divine plea, use engineering gloves with it and try to use it at a time when nobody needs heals, which is pretty obvious.

If you have mana problems, it most likely isn't because of the amount of spirit you have, but because of the playstyle you have. There's really no other way around it than raiding, and raiding more.

[Theholypally]

lol, no. I 2heal H Morchok, H Yor'sahj, H Ultraxion, N Gunship and have no issues in them. 3heal H Zon'ozz and H Hagara (though hagara is 2healable if you have an offspec tranq/hymn aswell as a mainspec one for lightning phase) and N Spine and N Madness. I do not know where you pulled that out. I do not have mana issues in any encounter. It comes down to knowing what heals to use and when to use them and not wasting mana on heals your raid doesn't need. You should also know when to use divine plea, use engineering gloves with it and try to use it at a time when nobody needs heals, which is pretty obvious.

If you have mana problems, it most likely isn't because of the amount of spirit you have, but because of the playstyle you have. There's really no other way around it than raiding, and raiding more.

How can you be as conservative as you say you are when two healing encounters? Even on normals you shouldnt be ending fights with more then 40% mana except for a few of them imo (gearing is also a factor). Mana regen cooldowns aside, finishing with a lot of mana in most of those fights probably means people werent as active as they could have been. For example on Ultrax, im usually around 20-30% mana by the time the blue crystal comes out, every time. I understand what you are trying to say, but i just dont see it being possible 2 healing the fights especially on heroic unless you already severely outgear every fight in DS.

Its not so much mana problems as actually using the mana you have effectively. If you are ending an encounter with 80% mana, then i would say there might be some more you could be doing that isnt wasteful or just 'busy work' while waiting on boss abilities. Its highly possible 3 healing, at least for normals to end with a substantial amount of mana, but i find it a bit hard to believe for 2 healing encounters especially heroics as you and some others claim.

This isnt attacking you or anyone personally, but ive seen a lot of people posting around here claiming they have zero issues at all with mana in their raids of any tier and it just makes me wonder how big of a use they really are to the raid and what they are doing to contribute. (2 healing 10 mans is another story altogether, but 3 healing 10 mans and 25 man raiding is what i was specifically refering to in this case) A lot of other statements just seem unrealistic and not really helpfull to any newer paladins coming around to look for information.

[Deleted]

How can you be as conservative as you say you are when two healing encounters? Even on normals you shouldnt be ending fights with more then 40% mana except for a few of them imo (gearing is also a factor). Mana regen cooldowns aside, finishing with a lot of mana in most of those fights probably means people werent as active as they could have been. For example on Ultrax, im usually around 20-30% mana by the time the blue crystal comes out, every time. I understand what you are trying to say, but i just dont see it being possible 2 healing the fights especially on heroic unless you already severely outgear every fight in DS.

Its not so much mana problems as actually using the mana you have effectively. If you are ending an encounter with 80% mana, then i would say there might be some more you could be doing that isnt wasteful or just 'busy work' while waiting on boss abilities. Its highly possible 3 healing, at least for normals to end with a substantial amount of mana, but i find it a bit hard to believe for 2 healing encounters especially heroics as you and some others claim.

Ending a fight with any more mana than 10% is a huge waste of a potential heal you could have used. By not having mana problems I mean not going oom at a time you should have not went oom at, meaning before the fight is over.

My gear is horrible considering how much gear I could have. My guild is gearing the tanks and the dps on a priority. I cannot see how at this point you could overgear any fight in DS considering the heroic modes have been out for only 3 weeks. My armory is in my signature, you can check that.

For Ultraxion, on the heroic mode I grab the red crystal (since the shaman takes the next 2, shaman mastery op) and try to conserve my mana as much as possible while maintaining a high throughput. I succeed in this by starting off with a "rotation" on using holy radiance when the damage comes and using holy shock and crusader strike to obtain holy power, which I would then use for LoD's when people need the healing. As the fight progresses, I weave in more holy radiances for more throughput and during the last minute I just spam holy radiance.

If you are taking the blue crystal you are doing fine if you are at around 20-30% mana when it comes. When you take the red one, though, you need to conserve far more mana and enter the last minute of the fight with well over 60% mana since you're going to need to spam HR.

You can also use a potion of concentration after you've pressed the button and it will not interrupt you when the hour of twilight cast has been finished and you're back to the normal realm. Combine that with a plea and you're good.

By saying this I'm reminding every little thing you can do to improve your performance will help you. Even small things can look great in the grand scheme of the fight. It really comes down to taking advantage of everything you can and trying to figure out strategies for the encounters. Using your throughput cooldowns properly also helps by a great lot.

Also, 2 healing most of the encounters is essential in order to beat the extremely tight enrage timers the bosses have. There's really no option. :P

[Theholypally]

Ending a fight with any more mana than 10% is a huge waste of a potential heal you could have used. By not having mana problems I mean not going oom at a time you should have not went oom at, meaning before the fight is over.

My gear is horrible considering how much gear I could have. My guild is gearing the tanks and the dps on a priority. I cannot see how at this point you could overgear any fight in DS considering the heroic modes have been out for only 3 weeks. My armory is in my signature, you can check that.

For Ultraxion, on the heroic mode I grab the red crystal (since the shaman takes the next 2, shaman mastery op) and try to conserve my mana as much as possible while maintaining a high throughput. I succeed in this by starting off with a "rotation" on using holy radiance when the damage comes and using holy shock and crusader strike to obtain holy power, which I would then use for LoD's when people need the healing. As the fight progresses, I weave in more holy radiances for more throughput and during the last minute I just spam holy radiance.

If you are taking the blue crystal you are doing fine if you are at around 20-30% mana when it comes. When you take the red one, though, you need to conserve far more mana and enter the last minute of the fight with well over 60% mana since you're going to need to spam HR.

You can also use a potion of concentration after you've pressed the button and it will not interrupt you when the hour of twilight cast has been finished and you're back to the normal realm. Combine that with a plea and you're good.

By saying this I'm reminding every little thing you can do to improve your performance will help you. Even small things can look great in the grand scheme of the fight. It really comes down to taking advantage of everything you can and trying to figure out strategies for the encounters. Using your throughput cooldowns properly also helps by a great lot.

Also, 2 healing most of the encounters is essential in order to beat the extremely tight enrage timers the bosses have. There's really no option. :P

I guess i was a bit unclear, as what i meant to say is that people generally boast about how they are ending fights with so much mana and never have issues with ending fights with that much mana. Idk even if that makes sense tbh lol. I dont consider it a problem when the fight ends and im at 5% mana or 10%,

I think i mis-read what you said and assumed you meant you had no trouble keeping your mana high while two healing heroics. If you are ending fights with 10% or less mana then you and i are on the same page.

[Deleted]

I guess i was a bit unclear, as what i meant to say is that people generally boast about how they are ending fights with so much mana and never have issues with ending fights with that much mana. Idk even if that makes sense tbh lol. I dont consider it a problem when the fight ends and im at 5% mana or 10%,

I think i mis-read what you said and assumed you meant you had no trouble keeping your mana high while two healing heroics. If you are ending fights with 10% or less mana then you and i are on the same page.

Indeed it is stupid to end fights with a huge amount of mana. I did misunderstand your point and it is good to hear you're on the same page with me :-)
I guess I wasn't clear enough either by saying I have no mana problems. It is true there are a lot of people going around yelling they end a fight with a huge amount of mana, which is in my opinion fairly stupid. (unless you really don't need the mana on the fight, usually when a fight is easy for your guild for whatever reason)

[Azshira]

I personally think just keep going

[Danathiel]

Only fight I've even come close to OOM on was Spine and that's cause I was doing it wrong (was beaconing the tank instead of the new debuff target). Other than that it's not really that intensive. Although I do have a 384 iLevel and 3143 spirit, might be one of the reasons it's easier (figures all my 391's outside of Jaws were the first things I replaced in DS).

I always just keep BoL up on the tank, since he starts to take heavy dmg from the Hideous once he's collected all 9 bloods, especially if he takes them too soon by mistake, yet I never go oom on spine. I have 3165 unbuffed spirit, and I hit 4050 spirit with my normal mode spine trinket (+880 spirit). I still push out
roughly 25k hps, whilst always staying above 90% mana. I don't start to lose mana until on the last plate, when the other 1-2 healer(s) are oom, and I need to practically solo heal (this is when all healer CD's + Divine Light = Awesome, because 1-2 divine lights remove the debuff, depending on the other healers mana) Thinking about reforging 880 spirit into haste, since I never had problems healing before I got the 880 spirit trinket, and I don't like Seal of the Seven Signs normal mode ^^ (it procced once in a 2 minute test I did) also, noticed that all my gear is reforged to spirit, so I will just have to be full mana at all times (401 Holy Paladin, Ragnaros)

[Deleted]

I always just keep BoL up on the tank, since he starts to take heavy dmg from the Hideous once he's collected all 9 bloods, especially if he takes them too soon by mistake, yet I never go oom on spine. I have 3165 unbuffed spirit, and I hit 4050 spirit with my normal mode spine trinket (+880 spirit). I still push out
roughly 25k hps, whilst always staying above 90% mana. I don't start to lose mana until on the last plate, when the other 1-2 healer(s) are oom, and I need to practically solo heal (this is when all healer CD's + Divine Light = Awesome, because 1-2 divine lights remove the debuff, depending on the other healers mana) Thinking about reforging 880 spirit into haste, since I never had problems healing before I got the 880 spirit trinket, and I don't like Seal of the Seven Signs normal mode ^^ (it procced once in a 2 minute test I did) also, noticed that all my gear is reforged to spirit, so I will just have to be full mana at all times (401 Holy Paladin, Ragnaros)

If you're having a lot of mana on spine, use more DL or drop a healer.

[Sequence]

Rolling with 3.3K spirit, trying to drop some for Crit, although.

[Shoults]

I have 3.4k unbuffed 4.4k buffed. I tend to stack more crit then haste. I use either Jaws or Fall of Mortality and sometimes seal. Mana is never a issue.

[Climhazzard]

The more spirit, the better.

Really though, it highly depends on the way you play. I've found that stacking spirit and after that haste works the best for me. I do not sacrifice int for spirit though, as intellect gives a high amount of throughput and a small amount of regen through Divine Plea.
That said, I'm over 4000 spirit fully raid buffed and trinket stacked.

I was reading your posts and you seem to know a great deal about healing groups.

I have a few questions if you have time to answer them.

First: are you ever close to the top of the healing meters? I am usually closer to the bottom, even though
my first LFR was yesterday, My character is Climhazzard on The Forgotton Coast Realm if you wanna take a look.

Please let me know if I am doing something wrong.

I have noticed in those long fights that I drop dangerously low on mana pretty early in the fight. Now i have been
reading and have found out i am not using my cooldowns as effectively as I should have.

I also noticed you said you crusader strike when you can for holy power, but doesnt that also chance to proc
more mana regen?

Any feedback you might have on my gear / glyphs / talents, or tips on rotation to keep me in the good with mana would be great.

Lastly, I have noticed I was purposely burning mana to use the HoT spells constantly because I felt like i wasnt doing a good
job due to being low on healing meteres.

[Kerfax]

I was reading your posts and you seem to know a great deal about healing groups.

I have a few questions if you have time to answer them.

First: are you ever close to the top of the healing meters? I am usually closer to the bottom, even though
my first LFR was yesterday, My character is Climhazzard on The Forgotton Coast Realm if you wanna take a look.

Please let me know if I am doing something wrong.

I have noticed in those long fights that I drop dangerously low on mana pretty early in the fight. Now i have been
reading and have found out i am not using my cooldowns as effectively as I should have.

I also noticed you said you crusader strike when you can for holy power, but doesnt that also chance to proc
more mana regen?

Any feedback you might have on my gear / glyphs / talents, or tips on rotation to keep me in the good with mana would be great.

Lastly, I have noticed I was purposely burning mana to use the HoT spells constantly because I felt like i wasnt doing a good
job due to being low on healing meteres.

I'm not the person your questions were aimed at, but hopefully I can help some.

I think your mana problems are due to the fact that you're still undergeared, even for LFR. The mana issues will go away as you get more spirit. To help this I'd also advise that you run with Heartsong instead of Power Torrent. There are some numbers (I can't find them for reference unfortunately) that show that Heartsong is just as powerful as Power Torrent for us.

It may also be helpful to run a Mastery stacking build until you get better regen. Mastery is a lot more efficient than Haste.

Any time that you are meleeing you will have a chance to gain Mana back through SoI.

Your spec seems fine. I personally run Glyph of Holy Shock, but I don't want to say that it's better than WoG because I'm not sure of the numbers on them. I think in a situation with a lot of AoE damage you should switch them though because you'll be using Holy Power on LoD.

As far as general tips, Ill try to put down anything I can think of:
Make sure you are using Holy Shock on CD.
Keep a tracker for JotP so that it has as close to 100% uptime as possible.
If you dont, use a healing add on like Grid or Vuhdo. They really do make a difference.
As long as the tank is Beaconed, LoD will do more healing than even a glyphed WoG.

If you can get some logs, I can give more precise tips. Until then this is the best I can think of.

[sunnyharris]

good info in this thread, thanks.

[davispunx]

Rolling with 3.3K spirit, trying to drop some for Crit, although.

Crit is not good for healers because it isnt consistent or predictable like haste or spirit. More often than not its just wasted in overheals. Assuming you are at a breakpoint for haste, mastery beats out crit.

[FutureOfAggramar]

What about mastery?

[Dubalicious]

Crit is not good for healers because it isnt consistent or predictable like haste or spirit. More often than not its just wasted in overheals. Assuming you are at a breakpoint for haste, mastery beats out crit.

The change to HR made crit a much more viable stat for holy pallys. Crit also inherently increases the value of your mastery (for free). I had a lot of success running a crit build during H-DS progression.

[Kerfax]

What about mastery?

I assume that you're asking how each of the stats stacks up and why, so I'm going to answer for Mastery and Crit. If that's not what you wanted I apologize for the semi long post. As far as I remember, on live the stat breakdown is something like Int>Spirit>Haste and Mastery and crit just about the same. Both crit and Mastery have drawbacks that the other stats don't though.

Mastery is absorbs, so it's reliable as long as damage is going out to use the absorbs. If you put up Bubbles, and there is not enough damage going out to use the bubbles you will lose throughput.

Crit is also dependent on its chance. With crit you can have lucky high crit rolls or unlucky low crit rolls. Its not entirely reliable, but it is still about even with Mastery for throughput if I remember correctly.

For sheer throughput: Int>Spirit>Haste>Mastery>Crit (Not entirely sure on crit and Mastery's positions there) Should be what your reforge for.

I will say that Mastery and Crit both have the benefit over Haste of not being as intensive on Mana pools because faster casts=more total casts= more mana spent.
Because of this, I personally reforge Int>Spirit>Mastery>Haste and will continue to in MoP because I like having a conservative feel to my mana pool.

[Venism]

4700 spirit Fully buffed w/ procs.