Why do the top guilds always do well?

[Deleted]

I have a theory about why we always seem to get the same top 10 guilds.

1. Mental and Intellectual Aspect of Raiding

IMO Raiding at the very top level doesn't require you to be one of the best players in the world. For example some of the most skilled WoW players in the world is Swifty and Athene (hear me out) You can tell they know their classes better than most people and have got the best natural WoW skill, but would they make it into paragon etc? No, because they would be incapable of following a raid leader. For those who watch Athene and Swiftys stuff, could you imagine them sitting there for hours wiping on the same boss following instructions down to the last detail? No, they would ninja pull the bosses and say 'umadbro'

I am not saying skill isn't important but I feel the mental aspect is more important. You need to be capable of doing the EXACT same thing as 24/9 other players and use your initiative to help out the raid in a sticky situation.

Also you need to be dedicated enough to kill a boss after 500 wipes and still be able to give 100 percent. Has anyone been in a pug who came up with a challenge and they wiped on the first attempt, then half the group leaves even though they probably would have succeeded in the next few tries? Thats a mojor difference between the top guilds and the 'not so top guilds' I am sure there are many guilds out there who are capable of downing a boss, but after 10 wipes the Raid Leader rage quits.

2. Logistics and Planning

Spending hours and hours on the PTR killing the same boss over and over again... The spending hours and hours on week 1 wiping on normal modes over and over again just to get your heroic strat nailed down. Only a few top guilds do this... and they are usually the ones in contention for world firsts.

Seriously advanced mathematical loot distribution charts. The top guilds all have super genius maths wizzes who come up with the best possible way to distribute loot so the guild get the highest mathematically possible DPS. Also have you seen Blood Legions Legendary loot rotation chart? That uses some hardcore math that even I didn't come across when doing a PC Programming degree.

Tactical brainstorming team... Most guilds stick to one tactic and try it over and over again until it works. When I was in a 'top guilds' ventrillo when they were raiding Firelands PTR they had a 5 man tactical brainstorming team with their own Vent channel... They wouldn;t release their corpse and spend the time in between wipes Brainstorming, by the time everyone was buffed uf ready to go they had come up with a whole new tactic to try out. (I know for a fact this is how Paragon operates, also, but on a much larger scale. Each of their members has a private stream so the unused subs on the roster can also watch the fight and chip in with brainstorming... If you are racing for World First you cant just take a 20 minute break to rethink tactics... You need to do it on the go)

#3 Guild Friendship

The most important thing though, is you need to be friendly with your guild and have a good relationship with them. The worst thing that can happen to a guild is it dying from the inside due to people not getting along.

So, my point is, You do not need to be a super hardcore gamer to be in a top guild. I have been in a top 10 guild before (Only in Tier 9, we got world 10th in 25 man ToC and World 25th HC LK) and I am not a super skilled player, I suck at PvP even though it is only pressing the same buttons I use to raid. I am only considered one of the best raiders due to the fact that our guild has amazing planning and we were all friends.

[Deleted]

I think one of the keys is not taking damage you're not supposed to take. When I watch their movies I'm always impressed how they ALL manage to dodge the dodgy stuff. That paired with extreme awareness and in-depth knowledge of their classes..

[Exiztence]

For example some of the most skilled WoW players in the world is Swifty and Athene

If you would mention someone that is actualy good at this game but you mention a sponsored nobody that had to have his character played by someone else to reach gladiator title because of Razer and a troll that is successfuly trolling most of community for past few years.

[Beasty]

They are also having more tries in one day than most guilds do in a week.

[Ichimarunico]

Swifty is good at making and editing Youtube videos. He's a 1900 player surrounded by 2400+ quality players and his only role is to tunnel whoever they tell him to. He is in no way a fantastic player.
Athene was good in Burning Crusade for like 6 weeks. He has no idea how to play this game anymore and the videos of him failing horribly prove it. His EU character, much like Swifty himself, is a bought carry with someone else playing the character for him.

As for "Guild Friendship," Ensidia was notorious for being complete and absolute assholes to their non-core (4 or 5 people) raiders and the only reason they had a high retention rate was because they gave the prestige of a name.

The planning section is really the only accurate part of your post, and I wholeheartedly agree with it. There are two main tickets to these guilds' success: The planning and, afterward, the spread of their success leading to excellent recruits.

[tohyatvc]

Reason #1: Shitting in socks

[Deleted]

If you would mention someone that is actualy good at this game but you mention a sponsored nobody that had to have his character played by someone else to reach gladiator title because of Razer and a troll that is successfuly trolling most of community for past few years.

You beat me to it, i understand what OP is getting at, but it doesn't apply to swifty (no idea of that other dude) but swifty is an extremely bad warrior, buying haste items, hello ? He knows his class...right.... Getting boosted to glad...He can play his class....right....

Im sorry, but after that, you're whole topic lost any form of credibility, sorry

[Gerti]

well...

1. You act like you know athene and swifty a lot just by watching their videos? You know that Athene is acting when he's talking about that number 1 paladin in the world in a arrogant way.

2. You are wrong when you say that you don't have to be a top player, because you have to be the top guilds want you to be able to get the most out of your class.

[namtlade]

One thing that I've always noticed when watching the world first kills is how cohesive the group is. Using Paragons rag HC kill as an example, when they have to move and reposition themselves they do it perfectly and they do it fast. I've always compared it to how well a a troop of soldiers works together. Seeing any 25 players work together like that to overcome a hugely difficult boss is a great spectacle, as you don't often see it elsewhere.

[Torne]

I don´t agree with you. you say it´s about doing exactly what they are told, but it´s much more that in these topguilds, the people don´t NEED to be told what to do, they know or learn it themselves and have enough skill to also use everything they have on their own accord (rogues knowing when to feint to decrease dmg taken, ferals seeing that healers strugle and throwing in a tranq+ innervate etc etc).
It´s all about the players skill, but it is a different kind of skill than what athene and swifty (pretend to) have, it is about using all you abilities to support the others, not to increase your own success rate.

[Deleted]

Well, most guilds don't even try.
Have you looked at the schedules guild have?

"5 days per week 20-24" is the normal, and it means you are only spending 20% of the time that you could spend if you did it full time.

Of course you are going to suck on such a schedule.

Also, logistics: almost all guilds don't get that you need to run personal raids for each 3 main at most whenever you can (normal mode week, farming, etc.)
Most guilds don't have a Dragonwrath on each caster due to this, and obviously that means you lose before you start.

[greeeed]

So, my point is, You do not need to be a super hardcore gamer to be in a top guild. I have been in a top 10 guild before (Only in Tier 9, we got world 10th in 25 man ToC and World 25th HC LK) and I am not a super skilled player, I suck at PvP even though it is only pressing the same buttons I use to raid. I am only considered one of the best raiders due to the fact that our guild has amazing planning and we were all friends.

Huh? I don't really care about the raiding but since I'm casual raider.....
But who say that top raider = top pvp'er?
And who said that you press same button in raid and pvp? ( At least both my DK and rogue don't.....)

[Sildor]

I think one of the keys is not taking damage you're not supposed to take. When I watch their movies I'm always impressed how they ALL manage to dodge the dodgy stuff. That paired with extreme awareness and in-depth knowledge of their classes..

That's because you only see their kills, and not the wipes. Of course they might dodge it better than your average joe, but they are not wonderpeople when it comes to that by any means.

More or less what was described in the original post is 99% of the reasons why they are ahead. For once a sensible post about it.

[Deleted]

Regarding dodging, at least Paragon videos definitely contain screw ups.

For instance, on Ragnaros, someone dies on phase 1, while in Sinestra you'll see people getting stuck behind cutters and having to run the long way.

[MestHoop]

I'm sorry, but those are all pretty obvious to anyone who has done some "serious" raiding (not world or even server first race, but know enough about communities, how progression works, etc.). Any guild leader who does not take those points into consideration (and you missed a few IMO), won't be very successful (there's always exceptions, but overall they follow the same ruleset).

Also, Swifty being one of the best players around? I mean, I like the guy (been a fan of his vids since the very first Incredible warrior tricks), but that's mainly because of entertainment purposes. I never really watched his videos for a great display of skill, but clever use of game mechanics and handling PvP situations in an analytical way (which mostly boiled down to: Warrior vs X class duel).
Purely skillful play I hardly see in his videos (Athene does show some from time to time, but there's not enough ingame footage to make any close-to-certain assumptions), unlike the videos of PvPers like Braindeadly (just to name one, there's a lot more out there).

[Deleted]

They are also having more tries in one day than most guilds do in a week.

^ This.

How is this a mystery to anyone? Yes these guys are extremely good and presumably extremely well led. But they are not super humans, plenty of other people in the world have the skills to play good. After all, WoW isn't a super difficult game at its core. However your average guilds puts in what, 9-20 hours of raiding per week? Top guilds have been known to that in a day. Every day. Until the boss dies.

Massive credit to them for having that level of dedication and drive (and skill to go with it), but it's not a mystery as to why they kill stuff so much faster.

OP has very good points, but the top guilds are hardly the only ones who did this sort of stuff. They just do it non-stop until the boss dies, while the other 99% of guilds go to bed.

[Deleted]

I think one of the keys is not taking damage you're not supposed to take. When I watch their movies I'm always impressed how they ALL manage to dodge the dodgy stuff. That paired with extreme awareness and in-depth knowledge of their classes..

That i think is one major reason yes.
Also the time between attempts are most likely several times shorter then a normal raid guild. Focus on the game totally is another. Analyse what actually happened is another. Ability to adapt one more.

Over the years and with the possibility to change servers has also gathered top of the line players together, which makes those guilds so much better then average guild. If you got 30 players in the guild matching the above it makes enormous differeance than if you have 20 and 10 average players.

[Frostbites]

A good gaming computer isnt too shabby either.

[MestHoop]

^ This.

How is this a mystery to anyone? Yes these guys are extremely good and presumably extremely well led. But they are not super humans, plenty of other people in the world have the skills to play good. After all, WoW isn't a super difficult game at its core. However your average guilds puts in what, 9-20 hours of raiding per week? Top guilds have been known to that in a day. Every day. Until the boss dies.

Massive credit to them for having that level of dedication and drive (and skill to go with it), but it's not a mystery as to why they kill stuff so much faster.

OP has very good points, but the top guilds are hardly the only ones who did this sort of stuff. They just do it non-stop until the boss dies, while the other 99% of guilds go to bed.

And before people come around saying "What? 20 hours a day? That's insane! No one does that!", go watch the "Race to world first" documentary.
Some Russian guild (sorry, I keep forgetting their name T_T) said they were raiding 20 hours day for several days in a row and they were getting worried the 4 hours sleep they did get was enough to keep em sharp (yes, that was a serious mental question :P).

[Zka]

Opening one dumb thread wasn't enough for one day?
You have no clue at all about top tier raiding.