Syria

[Kraenen]

Crusading around the world, fighting evil and righting wrongs is naive. It's a delusion for very young people (or very stupid people) with all balls and no brains.

Syria is a strategic jackpot. It fucks with everyone we hope it could pretty much and costs us basically nothing. We'll spend... what... far less on Syria than a single F-35 Joint Strike Fighter?

It's not ethical or moral, but it is smart. And smart people don't always do ethical or moral things, especially when the gain is so great.

And honestly, if it makes you feel better, just keep in mind, plenty of these Syrian males fighting now... this is actually their second war.... their first was 6 years ago, in Iraq, when the Syrian government shipped them across the border by the busload to wreck havoc. The surge put a stop to that... but the Syrians went home, and surprise surprise, brought the Civil War with them.

How many American soldiers died in Iraq, from a weapon that was shipped through Syria, or by an IED pressed by a Syrian fighter? Plenty. So I don't really cry for Syria. We don't owe them anything and the second the costs outweigh the rewards, we should drop them like a bad habit. We still win, because Iran and Russia will have spent a ton of political, economic and military capital for something that turns out to be far worse than the pre-war status quo.

There's not really any point in arguing is there? You're convinced being "smart" (a.k.a opportunist) is better than being ethical. It really comes down to your nationalism and anti-humanism getting in the way of intellectual progress.

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The US will show themselves to be the biggest hypocrites going if they arm the rebels. They will be arming terrorists, their own enemy that countless US and allied soldiers have been killed by.

When they do things like this, is it any wonder there is a queue wanting to blow a chunk out of American soil?

So you admit the US has always been a terrorist nation?

[Skroe]

The US will show themselves to be the biggest hypocrites going if they arm the rebels. They will be arming terrorists, their own enemy that countless US and allied soldiers have been killed by.

When they do things like this, is it any wonder there is a queue wanting to blow a chunk out of American soil?

Here's the thing bud.

You see being a Hypocrite is a big deal to the following people:

-People on the internet
-People making an argument about something
-People denouncing something

The US could be the biggest hypocrite the world has ever seen about something... and it truly would change precisely nothing. Sooooooo whats you're point? Should the US not do something because it would be hypocritical? Is the US Government run by 7th graders who are bound by that kind of childlike morality?


Really, you're being completely silly. We should do whatever it is the most cost effective, logical, biggest gain course of action, in any given situation. If that means we're vegetarian one day and carnivore the next... who fuckin' cares?

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There's not really any point in arguing is there? You're convinced being "smart" (a.k.a opportunist) is better than being ethical. It really comes down to your nationalism and anti-humanism getting in the way of intellectual progress.

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So you admit the US has always been a terrorist nation?

No, I'm just not filled with childlike idealism about the world. I don't know how may people you've dealt with, but I've professionally dealt with people who are out to fuck you. And I mean it. They want to fuck you. They want to fuck you because they will get a head. Because they think its funny. Because that's just how they're wired. Above the level of teenagers and twenty-somethings posting silly little idealistic platitudes about how it would be nice if we could put all our differences behind us and start up a United Federation of Planets, is the reality that the world... the real world... is a pretty hilariously rotten place. And human beings won't give a fuck about most other human beings.

SO call me nationalist (which I am) and anti-humanist (I'm most certainly not). What I am is a realist. If we can halt Russia and Iran's emphatically anti-humanist ambitions by being unethical but strategically smart, the big gain is better than the little gain. If this sounds like the argument of cutting off the finger to save the arm, it's exactly that. Because that's how the real world works. Compromise. We sacrifice the pawn of Syria to win the larger game, guess what, the net win is a big win.

If you wanna go around the world fighting evil, no matter how small, turn yourself into Batman. The real world has no room for such nonsense.

[Kraenen]

...long post

Sounds like the problem is you're simply jaded and became cynical because you thought you couldn't do anything about it. I mean if anything those experiences and the notion that some people are out to get you should charge you to fight AGAINST it, not give up. And you end up rationalizing being evil in order to stop evil (a contradiction I was hoping you would see).

[Skroe]

Sounds like the problem is you're simply jaded and became cynical because you thought you couldn't do anything about it. I mean if anything those experiences and the notion that some people are out to get you should charge you to fight AGAINST it, not give up. And you end up rationalizing being evil in order to stop evil (a contradiction I was hoping you would see).

No, I'm very far from cynical. What I am is not self-deluded like some of you folks are, about the nature of the world. The fact that the ethical responsibility in Syria is even being taken seriously shows how out to lunch it is. I can assure, the cold-blooded reptiles in the State Department and the Pentagon haven't entertained that beyond platitudes. After all, where is Samathan Power, the crusader for liberal intervention, in this, what should be her moment of triumph, with a cause that could be congressionally popular and President that has her back? She's no where to be found, because everyone with a brain and responsibility knows: getting deeply involved in Syria is strategically dumb, and hypocrisy charges can go straight to hell.

Like let me tell you something Raybourne, you see people making posts about how we should embrace our common humanity to intervene in Syria, to tear down national borders... that kind of nonsense. And it is nonsense, because there is no such thing as common humanity except to romantics, and the world isn't filled with romantics. Our nations political and cultural differences are vast... and they're important. I have absolutely no interest in compromising my way of life to be more like a Swede like Bakis. It's not something to aspire to. Most people don't. And they shouldn't. I have basically nothing in common with Syrians. Why should I want my country to spend its political and military capital on them, unless its for the purpose of spreading our own interests?

It's not that I want to do anything about it Rayborne. Truth be told, I rather LIKE this. I don't WANT it to be different. Why would I? It works well for me, and works well for my country and this kind of Darwinism, where there are winners and losers, filters out weak ideas and actions that can't widstand scruitiny or competition.

There is nothing evil about this in the slight. Because what happens if the US Raised an Army 40 million strong to crusade across the world and truly fight all evil. Are you ready for what would happen? Because it would be an even in world history similar to scale and scope to the Mongols moving across Eurasia and the Middle East, which changed the course of all human events thereafter. You ready for human suffering on that scale, as will happen, if we consistently fight evil like you describe? Because I'm not. And neither is America or the world.

[Wilian]

Tbh at this point I'd love to see the political meltdown that would happen if US entered the war proper.

News have been slow lately.

[soulcrusher]

whilst id agree with Skroesecs interpretation I dont agree with his ethics or the long term viability of such an approach. this is all part of US/Israeli destbilisation of the region, weakening Iran and distracting Russia. meanwhile people are being beheaded and slaughtered, beautiful and ancient places destroyed. for what? is it really neccessary? in other news Detroit goes bankrupt. talk about fiddling while rome burns. cant help but feel team usa is building up a massive stock of resentment and bad karma around the world and that as soon as you cant afford the inordinate amount of military spending you currently have youll be screwed. wonder whats wrong with the US economy? an age of austerity? schools and education or bullets and bombs? youre choice america.

REPORT: U.S. Military Spending Has Almost Doubled Since 2001

A report released by SIPRI, a Swedish-based think tank, reveals that U.S. military spending has almost doubled since 2001. The U.S. spent an astounding $698 billion on the military last year, an 81% increase over the last decade.

U.S. spending on the military last year far exceeded any other country. We spent six times more than China — the second largest spender. Overall, the world expended $1.6 trillion on the military, with the United States accounting for the lion’s share.



As a percentage of GDP, U.S. military spending has increased from 3.1% in 2001 to 4.8% last year.

The report notes that, “even in the face of efforts to bring down the soaring US budget deficit, military spending continues to receive privileged treatment.” Indeed, House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) and others on the right are passing legislation increasing defense spending. At the same time, they are insisting on massive cuts to social programs that provide vital assistance to the elderly, the poor and the middle class.

[Kraenen]

No, I'm very far from cynical. What I am is not self-deluded like some of you folks are, about the nature of the world. The fact that the ethical responsibility in Syria is even being taken seriously shows how out to lunch it is. I can assure, the cold-blooded reptiles in the State Department and the Pentagon haven't entertained that beyond platitudes. After all, where is Samathan Power, the crusader for liberal intervention, in this, what should be her moment of triumph, with a cause that could be congressionally popular and President that has her back? She's no where to be found, because everyone with a brain and responsibility knows: getting deeply involved in Syria is strategically dumb, and hypocrisy charges can go straight to hell.

Like let me tell you something Raybourne, you see people making posts about how we should embrace our common humanity to intervene in Syria, to tear down national borders... that kind of nonsense. And it is nonsense, because there is no such thing as common humanity except to romantics, and the world isn't filled with romantics. Our nations political and cultural differences are vast... and they're important. I have absolutely no interest in compromising my way of life to be more like a Swede like Bakis. It's not something to aspire to. Most people don't. And they shouldn't. I have basically nothing in common with Syrians. Why should I want my country to spend its political and military capital on them, unless its for the purpose of spreading our own interests?

It's not that I want to do anything about it Rayborne. Truth be told, I rather LIKE this. I don't WANT it to be different. Why would I? It works well for me, and works well for my country and this kind of Darwinism, where there are winners and losers, filters out weak ideas and actions that can't widstand scruitiny or competition.

There is nothing evil about this in the slight. Because what happens if the US Raised an Army 40 million strong to crusade across the world and truly fight all evil. Are you ready for what would happen? Because it would be an even in world history similar to scale and scope to the Mongols moving across Eurasia and the Middle East, which changed the course of all human events thereafter. You ready for human suffering on that scale, as will happen, if we consistently fight evil like you describe? Because I'm not. And neither is America or the world.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. You sound like an old man who's had a couple drinks and wants to ramble on about his old and cynical perspective on the world to anyone with a speck of hope and conviction. I mean just the fact that you would re-address the same person you quoted wreaks of delusion.

[vawugz]

I'm just saying, everyone gets really uppity whenever the US sells weapons to rebels or terrorists...

Not really surprising. Every time we fund someone in that area we end up on opposite sides later on.

[N-7]

Russian missiles, Russian rifles, Russian planes, Russian artillery, Russian tanks...

You'd be hard-pressed to find an Iraqi weapon that wasn't made in Russia. Pre-US invasion, of course.

Hmmm Iran during the Iraqi-Iranian war?

[Wilian]

Wasn't that discussion already concluded with the fact that bought weapons are different to weapons supplied through military treaty/alliance?

If Finland went to war with either Russia or USA we would fight both with Russian and US weapons but we hold no affiliation to either of them. Syria and Russia have a proper treaty about this stuff.

[Wilian]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...d-amnesty.html

Disillusioned by the Islamist twist that the "revolution" in Syria has taken, exhausted after more than two years of conflict and feeling that they are losing, growing numbers of rebels are signing up to a negotiated amnesty offered by the Assad regime.

At the same time, the families of retreating fighters have begun quietly moving back to government-controlled territory, seen as a safer place to live as the regime continues its intense military push against rebel-held areas.

The move is a sign of the growing confidence of the regime, which has established a so-called "ministry of reconciliation" with the task of easing the way for former opponents to return to the government side.
...
"I used to fight for revolution, but now I think we have lost what we were fighting for," said Mohammed, a moderate Muslim rebel from the northern town of Raqqa who declined to give his last name. "Now extremists control my town. My family has moved back to government side because our town is too unsafe. Assad is terrible, but the alternative is worse."

The plot thickens. Also a polish journalist was kidnapped by the more extreme rebel sect:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/0...96N0SJ20130724

And what is this? Taliban themselves entering arena on side of rebels?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...96D02V20130714

Oh well, good thing is that US finally got their act together and starts to supply weapons for this glorious unified group of rebels eh? Right? Right? lolno

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...ebels/2580009/

A deal reached in Congress to allow the United States to ship arms to Syrian rebels could spur other nations to do the same, blunting the military gains of dictator Bashar Assad and preventing him from crushing the rebel movement.
Syrian rebels say the decision by U.S. lawmakers to go along with President Obama's plan announced weeks ago to arm their factions will give them an edge.
"American military support may not be sufficient in and of itself, but American leadership in close coordination with our allies ... will create a significant shift on the ground," said Mazen Asbahi, president of the Syrian Support Group, a U.S.-based group of Syrians who are aiding the rebels.

The White House has said it intends to funnel arms to the Free Syrian Army, a collection of Syrian Army defectors and former officers who have been battling Assad's forces for more than two years. The aid will be overseen by the Supreme Military Council of the Syrian Revolution, a coalition of FSA commanders.

Good thing it's the FSA commanders handling the sharing of weapons. Nothing could go wrong with that!

[TheGravemind]

It's sad to see what started out as a relatively secular opposition (composed of various religions and subreligions, or sects) turn into something that is increasingly dominated by Islamist hardliners due to a lot of inaction from the rest of the world.

If there still is a capable actual force of moderate/actual Syrians (not Islamists), then I think that the Obama administration is justified in helping them, but in any case, this is a colossal mess.

[habitsbreaker]

If there still is a capable actual force of moderate/actual Syrians (not Islamists), then I think that the Obama administration is justified in helping them, but in any case, this is a colossal mess.

actually the united states allowed saudi arabia and the rest of the arab countries to help some of the FSA Brigades(secular ones), but these bridges dont fight assad they are storing their weapons for the after war( when Islamic groups are done fighting with assad), hell they even sell it to some of the Islamic Brigades and some of their leaders made a fortune from this business

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and i find it funny when you think actual Syrians are not( Islamist )