Arena in SWTOR would work amazingly well

[Deleted]

The PVP is really very good already in SWTOR

Trolling?...

[Glorious Leader]

Trolling?...

Not really. Myself and many others enjoy it immensely and its fairly balanced at launch. Things need to get fixed and worked around but its fun as hell and fairly well balanced.

[Matt0193]

- Separates the brackets by 5 levels each

I read upto here, and all I could think about was the queue times for twinks outside of the 70 and 19 brackets on WoW. Because that's pretty much what PvP would be for a few servers. Bolster, oddly enough, works as intended. It's not designed to make you equal, it's designed to give you a chance. The only issue with 10-50 WZ's were level 50 champion geared players just wrecking everyone. They're gone, and it's now okay-ish.

Sorry to a little OT there, but that kinda isn't required. The rest of your list I agree with.

[Eroginous]

You have all of that in WoW, why change? stay there please.

Maybe I want to play something besides wow? Maybe the thing that's stopping me from playing SWTOR (and many others) is the way pvp feels a little Downsey? Everything on my list is pretty much necessary for any game to function well in pvp.

I like macros but its interesting to see how many people "need" them (same with mods).

Adapt, improvise, overcome!

The main reason why macros are so important is it allows you to consolidate game functions or make things a little easier. For instance, I am used to being able to bind keys that you can't bind in Tor, as well as bind multiple spells to the same key and use a modifier key to switch. By the time you hit level 20, your 12 key action bar is full, and you're struggling to find other keybinds for all your stuff. At least that's how it has been for me.

Macros would give me a way to clean up my binds and organize them in a way that makes sense. I wouldn't have to be clicking things (clicking is for bads).

I read upto here, and all I could think about was the queue times for twinks outside of the 70 and 19 brackets on WoW. Because that's pretty much what PvP would be for a few servers. Bolster, oddly enough, works as intended. It's not designed to make you equal, it's designed to give you a chance. The only issue with 10-50 WZ's were level 50 champion geared players just wrecking everyone. They're gone, and it's now okay-ish.

Sorry to a little OT there, but that kinda isn't required. The rest of your list I agree with.

Not required? Bolster doesn't give you access to the abilities, talents, and gear that you don't have because you're not high enough level. In many cases, the only way you can beat someone who's higher level than you, is if they are a completely derpy player. I don't find that kind of pvp fun.

If the brackets were 5 levels each, then I wouldn't have to worry about getting my ass handed to me simply because the person is higher level and had more keys to slam his face on, despite the fact that I completely out played them. The bolster system is a complete failure imo, even without level 50s.

[Glorious Leader]

Maybe I want to play something besides wow? Maybe the thing that's stopping me from playing SWTOR (and many others) is the way pvp feels a little Downsey? Everything on my list is pretty much necessary for any game to function well in pvp.

And yet pvp functions. People have fun in it. You might not but that's your loss.

[Matt0193]

Not required? Bolster doesn't give you access to the abilities, talents, and gear that you don't have because you're not high enough level. In many cases, the only way you can beat someone who's higher level than you, is if they are a completely derpy player. I don't find that kind of pvp fun.

Odd, I never seemed to have that issue. I only got my ass handed to me by geared 50's. I didn't PvP until after the first act (31, for me when I finished mine) so that probably means I'm not in the same boat as you. I figured it'd be as imbalanced as 10-14 Brackets in WoW before this point, I wanted to have a few more abilities and namely some key talents (I leveled as a Combat Jedi Sentinel, and Combat Trance + Blade Storm Buff made PvP so much easier because I had a burst ability I could use)

If the brackets were 5 levels each, then I wouldn't have to worry about getting my ass handed to me simply because the person is higher level and had more keys to slam his face on, despite the fact that I completely out played them. The bolster system is a complete failure imo, even without level 50s.

Yeah, you're right. You wouldn't have to worry because you wouldn't get queues. That's what I was trying to get at. As it stands my queue time for level level 14 Guardian (I queued up just to see how long it would take) was about 4-5 minutes. Granted this isn't during peak time where the queues would be lower but that's building a group from everyone levels 10-49. Now imagine if I was trying to pvp with just 10-14's. I'd likely outlevel the bracket before I got a queue (And likely up until late 17 or mid 18 when you queue yourself in the next bracket to try and pvp again).

Unless you have a steady influx of players leveling constantly a bracketed system probably wont work for PvP, especially as PvP is server-only.

[swtorfans]

i agree with senbo to. Give the game a couple months to work out the bugs first.

[sleekit]

here's a small thought for you all:

this is Biowares first mmo. as such they have to learn from others mistakes.

Rob Pardo The Executive Vice President of Game Design at Blizzard (former Lead Designer on WoW) and virtually the top of the tree as far as game design goes at the company called the introduction of Arenas "the single biggest mistake in WoW's history".

with a ringing endorsement like that (that's sarcasm btw) you can be pretty sure you'll never see them introduced into SWTOR.

and for the same reasons.

what are those reasons ?

We didn't engineer the game and classes and balance around it, we just added it on, so it continues to be very difficult to balance. Is WoW a PvE cooperative game, or a competitive PvP game? There's constant pressure on the class balance team, there's pressure on the game itself, and a lot of times players who don't PvP don't understand why their classes are changing. I don't think we ever foresaw how much tuning and tweaking we'd have to do to balance it in that direction. Either I'd go back in time to before WoW ever shipped and change the rules to make the basic game more conductive for being an e-sport, or if not that, just say it doesn't make sense.

this is a MMO that's actually balanced around competitive PvP and therefore is actually suitable for "e-sports" : http://www.firefallthegame.com

this is not : http://us.battle.net/wow http://www.swtor.com/

when all is said and done there is one simple fact that all "srs" PvPers should try and grasp (much like "srs" raiders) :
you're a minority. a highly vocal and noisy minority but a minority all the same.

pissing off everybody else with constant changes to a game in pursuit of something that can never be achieved to sate your desires for something that should never exist in those games in the first place is as dumb a thing as human beings have ever come up with.

they are PvE games with PvP bolted on for additional amusement.

if you take your video game PvP more "srsly" than "amusement" you're playing the wrong games.

[Eroginous]

And yet pvp functions for some people. Some people have fun in it.

Fixed. I'm sure there are people who would enjoy the game even if it didn't have any pvp. That doesn't mean anything to people who want to pvp and also want to build up pvp prowess within that game. I can guarantee you that if they added all the things I listed above, none of you people who 'like it just the way it is' would even know the difference, much less complain about it.

Improving the way the game functions for more than just the jaded nostalgia fanatics opens up the door to a bigger revenue stream for BioWare, in turn giving them the ability to put more quality into the game.

I don't understand why anyone would argue against that.

Odd, I never seemed to have that issue. I only got my ass handed to me by geared 50's. I didn't PvP until after the first act (31, for me when I finished mine) so that probably means I'm not in the same boat as you. I figured it'd be as imbalanced as 10-14 Brackets in WoW before this point, I wanted to have a few more abilities and namely some key talents (I leveled as a Combat Jedi Sentinel, and Combat Trance + Blade Storm Buff made PvP so much easier because I had a burst ability I could use)

Well yeah, I started pvping as soon as I hit level 10, as an alternative to running around on foot fulfilling meaningless tasks for lazy NPCs. It is more rewarding in terms of time/XP as well as time/gold. However, it quickly became obvious that pvp isn't meant for people of low levels, even if they are allowed to queue up. I tried healing, I tried melee, and I tried ranged DPS. Of the 3, ranged DPS was the best suited for pvp, and did the most damage.

By level 18 I just got tired of the pvp being so wonky, I just decided to stop queuing altogether.

Yeah, you're right. You wouldn't have to worry because you wouldn't get queues. That's what I was trying to get at. As it stands my queue time for level level 14 Guardian (I queued up just to see how long it would take) was about 4-5 minutes. Granted this isn't during peak time where the queues would be lower but that's building a group from everyone levels 10-49. Now imagine if I was trying to pvp with just 10-14's. I'd likely outlevel the bracket before I got a queue (And likely up until late 17 or mid 18 when you queue yourself in the next bracket to try and pvp again).

Unless you have a steady influx of players leveling constantly a bracketed system probably wont work for PvP, especially as PvP is server-only.

You also have to consider that there is some portion of the community who walks into a BG at lower levels, gets steamrolled, sees the problems, and just doesn't bother queuing anymore. Wow always had good queue times within the bracketed system, until they added gear matching. That screwed things for a bit, then they took it out and added cross realm queues.

From what I understand, BioWare is planning on adding cross realm queues at some point, so that should be a good time to break down the brackets so that people can actually enjoy pvp when they queue up.

i agree with senbo to. Give the game a couple months to work out the bugs first.

To be honest, there aren't that many bugs to speak of. Most of the complaints have been with other things entirely.

here's a small thought for you all:

this is Biowares first mmo. as such they have to learn from others mistakes.

This would be important information if this had been the very first MMO ever made, or even the first MMO of it's kind, paving the way for a new genre. However, this MMO is the standard leveling grind fest minus many standard features present in the current iteration of standard grind fest MMOs. Why should anyone who's looking to get into a standard grind fest MMO want to get into TOR, when they can pick a different one that has a lot more features? Don't tell me it's because Tor has VA and lightsabers.

As it stands, any new game that comes out has to compete with other games of the same genre that already exist. Not having standard features of the genre will kill a new game just as quickly as anything else, and it will be interesting to see how popular/stable tor becomes.

Rob Pardo The Executive Vice President of Game Design at Blizzard (former Lead Designer on WoW) and virtually the top of the tree as far as game design goes at the company called the introduction of Arenas "the single biggest mistake in WoW's history".

with a ringing endorsement like that (that's sarcasm btw) you can be pretty sure you'll never see them introduced into SWTOR.

and for the same reasons.

what are those reasons ?

We didn't engineer the game and classes and balance around it, we just added it on, so it continues to be very difficult to balance. Is WoW a PvE cooperative game, or a competitive PvP game? There's constant pressure on the class balance team, there's pressure on the game itself, and a lot of times players who don't PvP don't understand why their classes are changing. I don't think we ever foresaw how much tuning and tweaking we'd have to do to balance it in that direction. Either I'd go back in time to before WoW ever shipped and change the rules to make the basic game more conductive for being an e-sport, or if not that, just say it doesn't make sense.

I would actually love to see the source of this information so I can get a better idea of the context and time frame this took place in.

this is not : http://us.battle.net/wow http://www.swtor.com/

when all is said and done there is one simple fact that all "srs" PvPers should try and grasp (much like "srs" raiders) :
you're a minority. a highly vocal and noisy minority but a minority all the same.

pissing off everybody else with constant changes to a game in pursuit of something that can never be achieved to sate your desires for something that should never exist in those games in the first place is as dumb a thing as human beings have ever come up with.

they are PvE games with PvP bolted on for additional amusement.

if you take your video game PvP more "srsly" than "amusement" you're playing the wrong games.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you're going to convince anyone. Blizzard might have started their game as a pve MMO, but they quickly changed their stripes when they realized that a lot of people wanted to pvp as well. MMO pvp is interesting and flavorful, it's not the standard 'everyone has the same guns' type pvp as FPS games, and it actually has some interesting objectives and game play.

Since wow went live, they've done what they can to add a pvp aspect and enhance it to the levels you can find in other genres. Right now, wow pvp is better than any pvp you can find in a shooter. They might have at one time discussed arena as the worst idea ever implemented into wow, but I highly doubt they feel that way about pvp in general, or competitive pvp.

Just because arena is a pain in the ass, doesn't mean that the concept of pvp is terrible.

[papajohn4]

here's a small thought for you all:

this is Biowares first mmo. as such they have to learn from others mistakes.

Rob Pardo The Executive Vice President of Game Design at Blizzard (former Lead Designer on WoW) and virtually the top of the tree as far as game design goes at the company called the introduction of Arenas "the single biggest mistake in WoW's history".

with a ringing endorsement like that (that's sarcasm btw) you can be pretty sure you'll never see them introduced into SWTOR.

and for the same reasons.

what are those reasons ?

We didn't engineer the game and classes and balance around it, we just added it on, so it continues to be very difficult to balance. Is WoW a PvE cooperative game, or a competitive PvP game? There's constant pressure on the class balance team, there's pressure on the game itself, and a lot of times players who don't PvP don't understand why their classes are changing. I don't think we ever foresaw how much tuning and tweaking we'd have to do to balance it in that direction. Either I'd go back in time to before WoW ever shipped and change the rules to make the basic game more conductive for being an e-sport, or if not that, just say it doesn't make sense.


this is a MMO that's actually balanced around competitive PvP and therefore is actually suitable for "e-sports" : http://www.firefallthegame.com

this is not : http://us.battle.net/wow http://www.swtor.com/

when all is said and done there is one simple fact that all "srs" PvPers should try and grasp (much like "srs" raiders) :
you're a minority. a highly vocal and noisy minority but a minority all the same.

pissing off everybody else with constant changes to a game in pursuit of something that can never be achieved to sate your desires for something that should never exist in those games in the first place is as dumb a thing as human beings have ever come up with.

they are PvE games with PvP bolted on for additional amusement.

if you take your video game PvP more "srsly" than "amusement" you're playing the wrong games.

Man you said it very well and I think I might copy this to a text for personal use for such discussions :P

Also to add something, why all pvp servers in wow are empty compared to pve servers? The only pvp servers that are full is the completely unbalanced that you can easily call them pve...Twisting Nether (where I play) for example I have more chances to see Jesus than an ally player...this is not a solid fact that you are the big minority, but adds something to this for sure..

[Mister K]

Im not sure if this is a troll post but shame on me for responding then i guess;

First of all... Massively Multiplayer Online...

Second..

[*] community breaking
Yeah.. This is pure bullshit. Nothing points to this at all.

[*] promotes douchebaggery
Same here... where do you get this from? Douches will be in the game no matter what.

[*] breaks class balance
What class balance?

[*] doesn't really stand up for "MMO" with it's small participant number
You mean that a group of 2-3-4-5 people doing arenas isnt the same thing as
4 people doing flashpoints.. oh alright..

[*] does not have anything to do with story or lore
Theres ALOT of fighting the opposite faction in lore....

[*] distasteful, meaningless PvP with nothing else but to enlarge electronic penises of a select few who actually enjoy this game type
The exact same thing can be said about pve. Epeen-enlargement deluxe.

Every time i read through your post i realize that its either a troll or you are just really, really lost.

Anyways...

Well said.

Arena breaks balance when is focused on balancing around it. But anyway

+1 Arena ~2.5K - 2.7K Rated Healadin S5,6,7,8,9

Don't care about gear rewards just ranked deathmatch style PvP, it is in Star Wars lore so boo you.

[voidillusion]

I dont get why you say pvp is bad in SwTor. I do plenty of it in my Jug (50) and Merc Healer (44) and it seems mildly balance, at least i dont get 1 shoted or killed in a stun lock, i have great fun doing it and the design of the WZs is quite entertaining aswell.

So why do you think it's bad? And please don't tell me it's because the lack of macros...

[Borzo]

I agree. The PVP seems mostly balanced. And it's definitely FUN! But there's lots of issues that would prevent me from taking it too seriously.

Besides, it's an MMORPG, not a competitive PVP game.

[zoefschildpad]

just make sure it has pits to push people in

[SoCal]

The main reason why macros are so important is it allows you to consolidate game functions or make things a little easier. For instance, I am used to being able to bind keys that you can't bind in Tor, as well as bind multiple spells to the same key and use a modifier key to switch. By the time you hit level 20, your 12 key action bar is full, and you're struggling to find other keybinds for all your stuff. At least that's how it has been for me.

Macros would give me a way to clean up my binds and organize them in a way that makes sense. I wouldn't have to be clicking things (clicking is for bads).

I understand why you have macro's I played a druid when powershifting was the stuff... however they are not required for PvP - they just close the gap between players some.

By all means they are not necessary to make PvP successful (or PvE).

They will not bracket PvP more than it is now as they dont want tweaking; if you listen to the interview with totalbisuct and the lead designer they state that clearly.

To me the only thing thats needed for PvP is smoothing out the delay and target of target; everything else is gravy.

BTW - I'd like them to add in the ability to tab target friendly players for healers who want to use that key (instead of hostiles).

[Glorious Leader]

Fixed. I'm sure there are people who would enjoy the game even if it didn't have any pvp. That doesn't mean anything to people who want to pvp and also want to build up pvp prowess within that game. I can guarantee you that if they added all the things I listed above, none of you people who 'like it just the way it is' would even know the difference, much less complain about it.

Improving the way the game functions for more than just the jaded nostalgia fanatics opens up the door to a bigger revenue stream for BioWare, in turn giving them the ability to put more quality into the game.

I don't understand why anyone would argue against that.

Because I'm arguing that your the minority. PVP functions well for MOST people. Handful of debbie downers aside.

[orangez0630]

I heard the reward is to give you Titles like : Ilum's Battlemaster
my bad, I stopped reading after "The PVP is really very good already in SWTOR"

[Eroginous]

I dont get why you say pvp is bad in SwTor. I do plenty of it in my Jug (50) and Merc Healer (44) and it seems mildly balance, at least i dont get 1 shoted or killed in a stun lock, i have great fun doing it and the design of the WZs is quite entertaining aswell.

So why do you think it's bad? And please don't tell me it's because the lack of macros...

It's not just the lack of macros. It's the way the game is designed, including the lack of macros. Going from a constant 30-60 FPS with settings turned all the way up, in space ports and on planets, to 10-15 FPS in Warzones with everything turned down (changing settings does not improve performance even with a client restart) is frustrating. Not being able to see the target of my target is frustrating. Not being able to bind more abilities without awkward key presses is frustrating, especially as a class that can heal in addition to DPS.

Not being able to use 3rd party support to enhance the look/feel of controlling and playing my character is frustrating. Not being able to think ahead and multitask abilities efficiently is frustrating. Having to deal with some tool bag who's 25 levels higher than me, chasing me around with better gear, more abilities, and a bigger talent pool to choose from, is incredibly frustrating when no matter what I do I can't beat him, even when I am clearly out playing him.

Not being able to out heal the damage of a single player playing a ranged class, not being able to effectively peel, and watching as melee can't out DPS heals, is frustrating. All my abilities being variations of the same purple lightning, is frustrating. All these things together add up to a largely frustrating pvp experience, even for someone who isn't a glad level player and enjoys BGs far more than arena (me). Many of these things are tolerable or non issues while questing or doing flashpoints, because those things are tuned to be casual enough for even the most inexperienced players.

When it comes to pvp though, it's an inherently competitive form of game play in any game that has it - there is no casual about it. You can't design pvp that's fun and engaging for both casual players and competitive players without alienating one of the two. While many people would argue that Tor is a casual game, they have announced that they are adding rated BGs at some point along with new maps.

Rated pvp definitely isn't casual, and if they have any hope that it will be even remotely successful, they really do need to look at fixing many of the things that I've pointed out.

I agree. The PVP seems mostly balanced. And it's definitely FUN! But there's lots of issues that would prevent me from taking it too seriously.

Besides, it's an MMORPG, not a competitive PVP game.

While 'fun' is a largely subjective term that means different things to most people, I can't really argue if you find it fun. However, I can argue that it's balanced. This game, like other games before it, focuses on healing, CC, ranged damage, and melee damage as the backbone of pvp. Ranged damaged in and of itself is easily better than any damage that can be put out by a melee class. Not to mention melee are done after they use their one gap closer (if they even have one).

CC is largely a joke in that you CC someone for 4-8 seconds, there are no drawback to dispels, people have a 2 minute CD to trinket the CC, and most of the CC is on a 1 minute cool down. Every class seems to have the same CCs and using them doesn't even matter. Healing is only slightly better, as it takes multiple people healing the same target to counter multiple people DPSing that target. In order for healers to be viable you'd have to bring healers in a 1:1 ratio to DPSers.

What is the purpose of having multiple CC abilities if someone can randomly dispel them without any real effort? What's the point of having healing abilities if it takes just as many healers to keep people up as there are DPSers?

The only thing I will agree with you on as far as balance goes, is that people don't die in one shot. They still have a tendency to die in the length of a stun, however.

I understand why you have macro's I played a druid when powershifting was the stuff... however they are not required for PvP - they just close the gap between players some.

By all means they are not necessary to make PvP successful (or PvE).

For a class that can reliably function on 5-6 keybinds, no, it isn't necessary. But for classes that expect to bring viable utility to pvp, yes, it is very necessary. Especially if they are planning on bringing rated warzones to the game.

They will not bracket PvP more than it is now as they dont want tweaking; if you listen to the interview with totalbisuct and the lead designer they state that clearly.

You mean 'twinking?' So they think it's okay to allow players to have 2-3 times as many talents as other players, bigger HP pools and better stats because of higher level gear, and more abilities to play with simply because of being higher level, but it's not okay to get good level appropriate gear to use against other players close to your same level?

IMO that guy was full of shit, they have no XP toggle in Tor and Warzones already reward considerable amounts of XP to players, even when they lose. Twinking would be very short lived for anyone who tried to do it, simply because they'd be forced to level. Meanwhile, players are still capable of getting good gear for their level and taking it into pvp.

I'd like to see that interview, can you provide a link? It really sounds like the guy is talking out his ass if he's really saying that within the context of current Tor design.

The only thing that would be hurt by breaking up the brackets into reasonable sizes is that right now WZs are realm only, so the queue times might suffer. They would also have to make them cross realm to compensate, which they have already said they are planning on doing. I can't believe people would sit here and justify playing against people that literally have every advantage on the field despite the Bolster mechanic, but then they would make an argument against twinking (players having every advantage on the field).

To me the only thing thats needed for PvP is smoothing out the delay and target of target; everything else is gravy.

BTW - I'd like them to add in the ability to tab target friendly players for healers who want to use that key (instead of hostiles).

Those are definitely some QoL changes that need to be made, for sure. I just don't think they would fix the game for me.

Because I'm arguing that your the minority. PVP functions well for MOST people. Handful of debbie downers aside.

So in your opinion, you think I am 'the minority.' Again, in your opinion, pvp functions well for 'most people.' Do you have some statistical facts to support these arguments? I'm not a Gladiator level player trying to 'own it up' in WZs. I'm a decently skilled gamer who would love to be able to enjoy the Star Wars IP in some objective based pvp.

The problems I listed are game breaking for me and many other people (notice how I didn't use the word 'most'?) I'm not going to bother throwing anecdotal evidence or skewed opinions at you because they don't mean anything. Tor pvp is a let down for me. It's like going to a top chef AAA fine Italian restaurant, and being served McDonalds. I get that YOU like it, and that YOU might know a few other people who also like it. What does that have to do with the people who don't?

What does that have to do with the fact that the features I suggested previously would only improve the game for everyone? To me it sounds like you're already suffering from 'don't change my game, bro!' syndrome that happens to players from time to time.

[Glorious Leader]

What does that have to do with the fact that the features I suggested previously would only improve the game for everyone? To me it sounds like you're already suffering from 'don't change my game, bro!' syndrome that happens to players from time to time.

I hope they do add them however that's a far cry from

Everything on my list is pretty much necessary for any game to function well in pvp.

.

Game functions well enough in pvp now with the potential to be excellent in the future. You and I likely just have a different understanding of the word "well".

[Eroginous]

I hope they do add them however that's a far cry from
.

Game functions well enough in pvp now with the potential to be excellent in the future. You and I likely just have a different understanding of the word "well".

'Well' is synonymous for 'good.' 'Good' and 'good enough' aren't the same thing. Neither are 'well' and 'well enough.' Stating that something 'works well enough' is to imply that it meets the bare minimum of expectations, and that isn't really a benchmark of any kind. As I said before, coming out at the end of 2011, Tor has to live up to a standard that other games uphold, or it will be dismissed while people favor other games instead.

Think about it. If I enjoy MMO pvp, and I have the option to play Wow or Tor, and one has busted ass game mechanics and missing features that would make the game absolutely better, why would I even give the busted ass game the time of day? Also like I said before, coming from other games, walking into Tor pvp, it's like going to a fine Italian restaurant, and being served McDonalds. Is it 'well enough?' Sure, it qualifies as the bare minimum.

But is it GOOD? Not really, not according to the standards set forth by other games of the genre. If an Italian restaurant was serving McDonalds, it would go out of business. Trust me, I don't mind it that people are enjoying Tor pvp as it is. But I am perfectly well within my rights to discuss why I don't enjoy it atm, and what it would take for me to begin to enjoy it. Keep in mind that my opinion isn't just an opinion. It's an opinion that is based on and supported by facts. I'm not just saying I don't like Tor pvp or that it's trash, I'm giving you factual reasons that are swaying my opinion on the subject.