Tanks - Stunned on pull

[JustintimeSS]

So I'm sure I'm not the only tank that is completely tired of being knocked back/down or stunned on every pull in Flashpoints.

It is completely frustrating to me to force charge into every single group of mobs and be CC'd for 10 seconds while the mobs run rampant because I couldn't do a single AOE yet. Or, I force charge and spam smash only to be pushed back 15 yards and land my smash no where near the group of mobs. It also seems that almost every boss in Flashpoints has this anti-charge knock back ability ruining the opening window to use high threat moves right off the bat.

Sure, I can use Unleashed and then wait 2 minutes between each trash mob pack.
Sure, I can spec into Unstoppable in Vengeance tree so I'm immune to CC when I charge but I'll give up my highest Tier talent (A big threat/damage ability).

I'm at the point where I have the DPS AOE pull so they get CC'd instead of me but then it's an uphill battle of threat (which is already tight) to keep the strongs and elites off of them.

Is anyone else burned up about this? What do you do to prevent it? You just suck it up or have everyone wait until the CC ends before doing anything?

[Dakia]

It frustrated me at first as well. I just stopped leaping in and used saber throw to start the pull after any necessary CC was applied. I use that in conjunction with a taunt to grab the primary mobs.

[konaman]

It frustrated me at first as well. I just stopped leaping in and used saber throw to start the pull after any necessary CC was applied. I use that in conjunction with a taunt to grab the primary mobs.

That doesn't help with stuns generally and if you're like me tanking with an assassin you don't have that luxury to begin with unless I blow recklessness for a 30yrd force lightning that doesn't hit for shit. I have to say one of my other complaints is mobs that come in late to the fight for example in false emperor. They land at 3 points no where near each other forcing to run back in forth tagging them all because they aren't even melee adds. Another gripe of mine is they set up the flashpoint to allow you to knock mobs off the edge yet half the mobs bug out and reset themselves after being knocked off or get stuck on the way down and keep you in combat.

[JustintimeSS]

It frustrated me at first as well. I just stopped leaping in and used saber throw to start the pull after any necessary CC was applied. I use that in conjunction with a taunt to grab the primary mobs.

I tried that, among other things. I still get force choked or completely stunned out for the beginning duration. False Emperor is a perfect example. We can CC the elite robots and leave the strongs for me to grab... but they all cc/knockback/stun on pull. I have tried saber throw pulling, taunt pulling, CC pulling and then taunting, sending DPS in first then taunting, Line of Sight pulling and every other creative measure I've used in other games.

Right now, my DPS knows to kill non elite/strong first because I cant be assed to run around like an idiot and gather 5 mobs who wont come to me. I worry about elite/strong and ignore the others. Especially when you pull and 4 dudes randomly land everywhere and start shooting at the healer.

I'm just at a loss of ideas and really think it's a bad design to have every pack of trash CC the tank on pull. I'm not one to bitch endlessly without attempting to find a way to make it work though so I am hoping to gather other ideas from the community that shares my frustrations.

[ghostprotocol]

Maybe it's designed to prevent aoe tanking?

[Atelniar]

The mobs have such abilities and use them when they are actually an annoyance to "increase the difficulty". Believe it or not you are sort of complaining about a good AI here.

Simple solution: don't waste your charge if you know you can be knocked back or let the Shadows mind maze the target that is most likely to cause your group pain? I have run into a lot of tanks that just won't let you go in with blackout to CC one mob because they are afraid of being called slow by idiots.

Also, AoE pulls are markably slower depending on who you group with. Shadow Infiltration for instance, while offering the ability to do so, is primarily best at single target DPS. But their AoE is generally not as good. That's what I have noticed at least. So on mobs with a lot of utility like knockbacks and a group with two shadows (dps) single target focus is way faster, actually. I think that is kind of cool. I am not at fifty yet, though.

[Sumatran]

Yes. My guardian is only 32 atm, but I wont run some flashpoints for this exact same reason. Pisses me off to no end.

There is one fp with 2 turrets that each knockback every 10 seconds. I almost uninstalled after running that place.

Basically everything you said sums up my feelings really well. CC'ing tanks, 5 mobs that wont come to you... spread from bfe to russia. Dont get me wrong I really love tanking, always have, and I really love my guardian... but I really really hate the design of the flashpoints.

[JustintimeSS]

The mobs have such abilities and use them when they are actually an annoyance to "increase the difficulty". Believe it or not you are sort of complaining about a good AI here.

Depends on what you consider "good" AI? Intelligence wise, yeah they are smart enough to CC me to free up the easier targets to kill.

I'm also starting to think that it's to prevent AOE killing but then it comes as a mixed signal. Here is a group of like 10 mobs (2 elites, 4 strongs and 4 normals who are ranged). We use CC on the elites and try to group up the rest. After my CC breaks I'm usually just spamming AOE to kill mobs because I'm sure as hell not tanking them. I end up tanking the elites and that's it.

Perhaps that's how I should look at it. Only the elites are the ones worth tanking and until then I just help dps and tank what sticks to me. I really considered picking up Unstoppable but I'm just too scared to drop Crushing Blow and make a dent in my single target tps.

[Sumatran]

The mobs have such abilities and use them when they are actually an annoyance to "increase the difficulty". Believe it or not you are sort of complaining about a good AI here.

I am sorry, but having every pack of mobs just stun the tank is the anthesis of good AI. It is cheap design to artifically increase difficulty. I cant see how "good AI" is to just make it so the tank cant tank.

Maybe it's designed to prevent aoe tanking?

I need to force choke anyone who thinks "Hey you know what tanks will love? Running all the fuck over the place to try and tank mobs thats a split as far apart as possible!!!!" It is poor design, because it is NOT fun. And video games, above all, are meant to be fun... not a fucking chore.

[Atelniar]

I am sorry, but having every pack of mobs just stun the tank is the anthesis of good AI. It is cheap design to artifically increase difficulty. I cant see how "good AI" is to just make it so the tank cant tank.


I need to force choke anyone who thinks "Hey you know what tanks will love? Running all the fuck over the place to try and tank mobs thats a split as far apart as possible!!!!" It is poor design, because it is NOT fun. And video games, above all, are meant to be fun... not a fucking chore.

Skills that make you think about an approach and bugger your standard approach is bad design? Catered to much? It's not, I'm sorry, you're wrong there I'm afraid. Bad design is to make difficult scale purely based on damage output and health without adding mechanics. Well, not bad per say, but rudimentary.

Also, having to run around means your group doesn't have a strategy and suck. There are ways to deal with groups without having to have the tank go crazy running back and forth in most cases. Standing still and spamming aoe is not fun either. Actually it is fucking boring as hell.

[JustintimeSS]

I need to force choke anyone who thinks "Hey you know what tanks will love? Running all the fuck over the place to try and tank mobs thats a split as far apart as possible!!!!" It is poor design, because it is NOT fun. And video games, above all, are meant to be fun... not a fucking chore.

While I agree that some mechanics are a pain (namely the stun/knockback), the running around part isn't needed.

You need to forget old customs and ignore the weak/normal mobs in flashpoints. Hit them with one AOE ability and then ignore them. Tell your DPS (they should already know) to kill normal/weak mobs first while you generate threat on strong/elites. Have your people use CC on strong adds or on elites when you pull. If 3 dudes jetpack in and they are normal mobs, just ignore them. Your dps should be switching to them and killing them before you could say "boo".

Once you take these tactics into effect tanking in this game comes down to threat and dealing with being CC'd on pulls.

[sidebar]

Have you tried LoS pulling those packs? I am pretty sure most of those abilities are melee range only and might not even fire off if they have to run to you first.

My tank is not that high level yet, but the few FP's I have tanked I tend to do LoS pulls and it tends to work extremely well, especially considering how ranged normally doesn't move when interrupted.

[Atelniar]

While I agree that some mechanics are a pain (namely the stun/knockback), the running around part isn't needed.

You need to forget old customs and ignore the weak/normal mobs in flashpoints. Hit them with one AOE ability and then ignore them. Tell your DPS (they should already know) to kill normal/weak mobs first while you generate threat on strong/elites. Have your people use CC on strong adds or on elites when you pull. If 3 dudes jetpack in and they are normal mobs, just ignore them. Your dps should be switching to them and killing them before you could say "boo".

Once you take these tactics into effect tanking in this game comes down to threat and dealing with being CC'd on pulls.

Yes, a tank who knows his stuff! The DPS should be focusing weak mobs/healer mobs, especially if our AoE is crap. This is the first thing I learned in TOR. My AoE wasn't great and the damage normal mobs do is actually fairly high if they don't die fast. They must be killed quick.

[Tutorial]

Bounty Hunter power tech can pretty much open with a AoE attack. Problem is the cooldown on it really.

[-Atlass-]

I agree the knockback is kind of frustrating after I Force Leap into a group but like the previous posts said, its just smart AI.

Maybe I'm the only one, but I really like not running into a group of mobs and cleaving/thunderclapping my way to victory (forgive the WoW reference, I used to play a warrior tank).

[Guillotine811]

Absolutely agree, very annoying.

[JustintimeSS]

Have you tried LoS pulling those packs? I am pretty sure most of those abilities are melee range only and might not even fire off if they have to run to you first.

My tank is not that high level yet, but the few FP's I have tanked I tend to do LoS pulls and it tends to work extremely well, especially considering how ranged normally doesn't move when interrupted.

I have tried LOS pulling to no avail. The mob that stuns just does it when it gets to me.

To be more specific, for those of you not at 50 yet, the flashpoint that exemplifies my issue is False Emperor. This FP is quite long and is packed with very large groups of trash usually consisting of 2-3 elites, 2-4 strongs and 4+ normals. The mobs close to balconies get pushed off and are not an issue - that is an obvious strategy designed for this FP considering it's how you beat the last boss. BUT, despite shoving 3/4 of each group off of ledges to their deaths, you are still left with the douche bag mobs that CC the tank on the pull. The most effective (yet unconventional) way to pull right now is to send my DPS in first after CC pulling. Then they get CC'd and I AOE taunt. While this may work, it also gets a DPS killed sometimes due to the 15 debuffs that get put on him when he jumps in.

I agree the knockback is kind of frustrating after I Force Leap into a group but like the previous posts said, its just smart AI.

Maybe I'm the only one, but I really like not running into a group of mobs and cleaving/thunderclapping my way to victory (forgive the WoW reference, I used to play a warrior tank).

I too played warrior since vanilla release, prot from the get go. While the increased difficulty of AOE tanking is fun for me, it isn't my complaint. I like the challenge this tanking requires, I just do not like the helplessness of being CC'd.

I just don't feel comfortable with the situation. Why should I send my dps in first to get wrecked to avoid being CC'd? I can't have them wait for the stun to wear off because the healer needs to heal, thus pulling aggro off of his stunned tank. It just bothers me as a tank to see myself helplessly stunned and mobs fucking my people up.

[Guillotine811]

However, Assassins also have the ability to stealth up and do a knock back themselves to pile all the mobs into a group, which usually works quite well. However sometimes I forget and just charge into the pack and get myself knocked back.

But yea, I will still get stunned or what have you after my knockback, but it gives me the time to do dark charge's discharge and at least get some threat off the bat.

Ahh you're talking about level 50 FPs, I haven't gotten there yet.

[ZeroWashu]

Maybe it's designed to prevent aoe tanking?

No, its just not designed to period. Its appears as if the encounter designers didn't know what the classes could do, or worse designed from the direction of "this is cool" instead of "this is fun". This game is laced with far far too many player incapacitation abilities being used by mobs. There are sections of regular quest areas where if you lead off an attack your stunned for eight seconds while your companion fights, its worse in Flashpoints.

DPS pulls can somewhat mitigate it but overall it just shows lack of experience in good, fun, and challenging, encounter design.

---------- Post added 2012-01-12 at 11:51 AM ----------

The mobs have such abilities and use them when they are actually an annoyance to "increase the difficulty". Believe it or not you are sort of complaining about a good AI here.

There is no AI involved here, they cast certain effects in a certain order. You can game the system but its annoying to have to do so.I have had DPS pull (and companions in Heroic 2+) to take the initial stun.

[Sumatran]

While I agree that some mechanics are a pain (namely the stun/knockback), the running around part isn't needed.

You need to forget old customs and ignore the weak/normal mobs in flashpoints. Hit them with one AOE ability and then ignore them. Tell your DPS (they should already know) to kill normal/weak mobs first while you generate threat on strong/elites. Have your people use CC on strong adds or on elites when you pull. If 3 dudes jetpack in and they are normal mobs, just ignore them. Your dps should be switching to them and killing them before you could say "boo".

Once you take these tactics into effect tanking in this game comes down to threat and dealing with being CC'd on pulls.

I guess this game is not for me then. I dont feel like a tank, when my dps are tanking 2/3rds of every pull and I only focus on 1 or 2 mobs.

I would suggest at least putting stuns on a DR. Breaking a 6 second stun with my cc breaker only to get hit immediately with another 6 second stun is just stupid.