Question about the "no subscription system".

[omlech]

Yeap, this just became the reason why I'm not playing this game.

Out of curiosity, what's your current MMO and the MMO you've put the most time into?

[Mif]

Yeap, this just became the reason why I'm not playing this game.

Meanwhile looking at your post history, you've never had anything positive to say about GW2....

---------- Post added 2012-01-21 at 02:45 PM ----------

From the "How can people not be excited for GW2?" thread

Because it Looks dull and boring from the trailers/gameplay at Game conventions etc.

[Fernling306]

Yeap, this just became the reason why I'm not playing this game.

You are missing a huge thing.... There is no sub fee!
Do you complain about expansion packs?

[Squirrelbanes]

Yeap, this just became the reason why I'm not playing this game.

Some people just like to pay more money on subscriptions I guess... /rolls eyes

[Deleted]

I guess it's better to pay $15/month and pray for decent dungeons/other content then the possibility to (random numbers inc.) choose and pay $5 for a dungeon/other content (x3) every month.

The game will have a cash shop to help with the costs. As far as we know the cash shop will sell costumes, weapon/armor skins, t stones, character slots, bank/inventory slots. They also said they will probably be selling content as well(dungeons etc).

Are you sure about this? I mean, I thought that very little was know about the in-game store.

[Deleted]

There was a discussion about it on GW2G and most people dislike having dungeons in the store, since it really divides the community, something they advocate against. We have no details about the cash shop, but I pray it's only cosmetic stuff.

[Deleted]

For instance, was ICC (11 months) worth $165? You could buy several other games and/or expansions for that money.

This. Now, to be fair...I have a decent job...£8 a month or so, I just don't notice - so I let my subs tick away in several games and was fine. It's only been recently that I connected the dots - how much was I paying for a patch that I just wasn't that interested in. This isn't a WoW bash...but more, how I really appreciate the non-sub model - it seems like it's much more friendly to the consumer. Firstly, they buy what they want...and secondly, the game company will be a lot more focussed on making content that I actually want to buy.

[Tackhisis]

We have no details about the cash shop...

Then why are you discussing it? Unless there is an unambigous statement from developer that they will never sell character slots/unique items/dungeon packs/area access, we have no reason to treat it differently from every other item shop in this kind of games. May I also note that GW1 shop includes extra bots, extra missions, and entire new skills?

Infracted for trolling; Stop it.

[Deleted]

Then why are you discussing it? Unless there is an unambigous statement from developer that they will never sell character slots/unique items/dungeon packs/area access, we have no reason to treat it differently from every other item shop in this kind of games. May I also note that GW1 shop includes extra bots, extra missions, and entire new skills?

Things that ARE official about cash shop in GW2:
- flair items (skins etc)
- character slots
- bank slots (discussing it)
- there will be ZERO gear advantages
Yes, that's official, they are repeating the above for 2years now...

As for GW1, rofl, I will leave this to GW1 vets here to eat you up over this =].

Btw, trolling is bad for your health ;p

[Deleted]

Then why are you discussing it? Unless there is an unambigous statement from developer that they will never sell character slots/unique items/dungeon packs/area access, we have no reason to treat it differently from every other item shop in this kind of games. May I also note that GW1 shop includes extra bots, extra missions, and entire new skills?

Extra bots -> umm, this was added very recently, like 5 years after game released. Also it isn't as much additional bots as you can turn your other character into a bot. The advantage is that you could run some very strong build for example with 7 necromancer bots, but not only you can go with necros + ritualists instead, also bots are worse than humans anyway.

Extra missions -> bonus mission pack consists of very short missions which give items with skins. People either buy it for lore or for skins, but they provide 0 gameplay advantages and in general no one really cares about them

Entire new skills -> lol. The only thing you can get is unlock pack which gives you instant access to all skills for PvP, for PvE to use these skills you have to use tomes which are much more expensive than getting the skill. These skills are kinda like runes in League of Legends - if you play eg. tanks, you can quickly get a tank set and just forget about them. The only advantage skill pack gives is that you become jack of all trades instanly and can switch role easily, without the unlock pack you have to work for new abilities, but it doesn't take long to unlock them. Also, you unlock them very quickly in PvE. Usually these packs are bought by people who have multiple accounts and just want to unlock all stuff instantly so that they can play whatever they want.
There are NO skills in skill pack that can't be gained by normal play

[Maarius]

Then why are you discussing it? Unless there is an unambigous statement from developer that they will never sell character slots/unique items/dungeon packs/area access, we have no reason to treat it differently from every other item shop in this kind of games. May I also note that GW1 shop includes extra bots, extra missions, and entire new skills?

Tackhisis trolling again and again and again

to add to what athrl said: in GW2 when you enter competitive PvP (not WvWvW) all of the skills are acessible for everyone to ensure balance.

[Lucky_]

Tackhisis trolling again and again and again

to add to what athrl said: in GW2 when you enter competitive PvP (not WvWvW) all of the skills are acessible for everyone to ensure balance.

Just because you don't like his message doesn't mean he's trolling. Stuff he's stating is factual: there are dungeon packs in GW1 store. Denying this is an act of utter ignorance.
Denying that only some people having access to these dungeons is splitting the community is ... same thing.
Denying that unless developer states clearly that they will not sell such things in store... again, same thing. In fact, even such statement would not be a guarantee, as blizzard showed. Company can always change its mind.

That's one of the major problem of business model of "selling content" instead of "selling subscriptions". You always get people who lack certain pack, expansion or campaign who cannot participate in some content with others. This segregates the community. Worrying about similar segregation with GW2, which uses the same business model is very legitimate. Just because you will no longer need to unlock skills for PvP doesn't mean that the rest of the stuff sold in store - the stuff he originally referenced - will not happen.

Sometimes I get the feeling I'm on SWTOR forums when I'm on GW2 forums nowadays. People just blindly bash on any criticism if their beloved game, no matter how legitimate it is, often trying to brute force all legitimate complaints into the same category as trolling. This did not end well for SWTOR, which was released as a buggy POS and only now, about month after release, we're starting to get developer statements that say "yes, this thing you talked about in early beta is legit, we know of it and we are working on solution some time in remote future".
Before that, fanboy horde painted people who legitimately complained and reported the issues as trolls. Just like you are doing now. Even now, after several of issues, like the GCD bug have been not only acknowledged by developers, but actually have an official timetable for fix, people who originally reported the issues STILL get called trolls. Even today.

And that just doesn't end well. Not for the game, that ends up bleeding customers because legitimate concerns cannot be properly heard over all the fanboy crying, not for customers who find the game they really wanted to like to be lackluster, not even for fanboys who's beloved game ends up tanking hard.

[Delias]

-snip-

To be fair, when you've been looking forward to a game for what.. 5 years? (pretty sure GWEN came out 5 years ago)
it's hard not to want to defend it when someone says something negative about it.
Especially when the person saying these negative things seems to have come the section of the forums with the intent to bash the game before even bothering to read the title of the thread, and came up with a counter argument after.
I mean, look at the guy's post history. You expect us to read his posts and go, "Mm, yes, quite. Valid point, sir." after he's taken ever opportunity possible to go out of his way to bash the game for no particular reason?

[Ynna]

Just because you don't like his message doesn't mean he's trolling.

While I agree that this forum has plenty of White Knights wanting to defend their game, and are sometimes a little too vocal about it, Tackhisis hasn't said a single positive thing, and while I hesitate to call "troll" he has never added to constructive discussion, and all his posts here can be summarized as "GW2 sucks because X." He doesn't even seem to try and make his posts well-constructed.
Overly defending the game isn't good for the community, but overly attacking it is just as bad.

[Delias]

While I agree that this forum has plenty of White Knights wanting to defend their game, and are sometimes a little too vocal about it, Tackhisis hasn't said a single positive thing, and while I hesitate to call "troll" he has never added to constructive discussion, and all his posts here can be summarized as "GW2 sucks because X." He doesn't even seem to try and make his posts well-constructed.
Overly defending the game isn't good for the community, but overly attacking it is just as bad.

If you look further back in his posts, he seems to go to every game's forum, pointing out any minor-major flaw he can find and trying to get a rise out of people.
Tends to point out a lot of things that aren't flaws to most people but he doesn't like and market them as flaws, as well.
Obviously it WORKS, it's just that it's really unnecessary and being annoyed about it is understandable.

[Lucky_]

I mean, look at the guy's post history. You expect us to read his posts and go, "Mm, yes, quite. Valid point, sir." after he's taken ever opportunity possible to go out of his way to bash the game for no particular reason?

I just did look at his last 20 posts or so. Zero troll posts. All posts are highly critical of GW2. All of them have a basis for criticism.
Again, being critical of the game you love does not make person a troll. Here is a definition of a forum troll for you:

A troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

(source: wikipedia).

All of his posts are on topic, based on facts or statements, and ask legitimate questions without inflammatory or extraneous content. I urge you to try to find any that actually do fit the description above, because I found none. Posts critical of GW2? Yes, all of them, most of them highly critical. Posts that are trollish? None. Posts that are on topic being currently discussed, yes of them (sometimes offtopic from OP, but only when ongoing discussion is offtopic as well). Inflammatory? Only if you're an aforementioned type of fanboy that will bash any criticism of his beloved game, no matter how true and factual.

There are some rather borderline inflammatory posts on topic of homosexuality, but that are opinions that are fully on topic in a thread that asks for such opinions. Perhaps something more inflammatory that you are talking about was removed? I thought mods here generally kept such posts and just edited them to say "infracted" or "banned" in case post was judged to be against forum rules.


Of course some people do not like someone "pointing out all small flaws". That doesn't mean that they aren't flaws (in fact you just admitted they are) and that most certainly doesn't mean that they do not need to be pointed out. And person pointing out flaws absolutely does not need to "be positive about it". Flaws are problems that often need fixing. Deeply ingrained flaws are often problems that need to be addressed in some ways because they cannot be fixed.

This is yet another symptom of the "fanboys stomping out legitimate criticism" issue I was talking about. If that "gets a rise out of you", you may need to examine your own reasons for getting annoyed. Perhaps your own point of view has significant flaws, and the reason you're getting annoyed is because facts stated are in fact damning your overly rosy opinion.

[Lothaeryn]

If you look further back in his posts, he seems to go to every game's forum, pointing out any minor-major flaw he can find and trying to get a rise out of people.
Tends to point out a lot of things that aren't flaws to most people but he doesn't like and market them as flaws, as well.
Obviously it WORKS, it's just that it's really unnecessary and being annoyed about it is understandable.

Both of them do nothing but bitch, Ive been on the forums for a good 8 months now, and I haven't seen these two comment on anything but faults with the game.

@Lucky_ we are not ignorant of the problems that may arise with GW2, we probably even know more than most people about what could happen should a certain feature be implemented incorrectly. Just because we praise the game doesn't mean we are religious zealots scorning anyone who would criticize the game, but the one thing we wont tolerate is people who spread misinformed rumors about the game trying to discredit or make the game look unattractive without undue cause.

We all agree here that people have different opinions and different tastes, we do not try and enforce our views on anyone, rather, we try to show them that something they thought was right may be in fact wrong and is a different way on the development table.

When we have people like Tachkisis however, we have to do something about it, or simply ignore their feedback if they are not willing to try and see it from our perspective, that is called willful ignorance.

To be quite frank, I am quite happy your able to see certain problems that may arise, but I am beginning to wonder why you bother coming to this forum, you seem hellbent on trying to force feed your argument without even considering anyone elses argument whatsoever, we have told you about what is being planned about your concerns yet you adamantly continue to pressure your point without backing up any of your claims. Your comparisons to GW1 are usually moot, as those issues were addressed by Arenanet's development staff when discussing GW2's features, yet I continuously see you poking at GW1's flaws and claim them as fact to what will happen again in GW2.

As for your argument with "Buying content", what do you think you are paying for in a subscription model? You aren't even paying for content, only the privilege of playing the game, and for any bug fixes that may arise during gameplay. The subscription model also forces you to pay for playing the game until a new content patch arrives, and by the time a new patch does arrive, you have paid over 100 dollars while waiting for it.

The buy model allows for people to actually hold more in their wallet than a subscription model because you are not paying for the months you are playing until a new patch is out, and even if that new content is $15 or so, it is still alot cheaper than to play a game like WoW for 8 months while waiting for another content patch to come out.

I personally find the model better, as people will be able to afford it more often.

[Mif]

Lucky is just as bad as Tackhisis. Click his username, then click "find latest posts", all he does is make petty criticisms.

[Deleted]

snip

First, you're right. If people like something, they can defend it, as long as a valuable discussion comes of it. Some people might be a bit fierce with the defending, but that's what enthusiasm does with people. Still, at this moment, about the game itself, we still miss a lot of information. I kinda fail to see the issue a bit on this forum, I know we have some enthusiastic people on this forum but I can't recall anyone being as zealous as you describe. You're blowing things way out of proportion, I've seen the SWTOR forums and we are not there yet, not by a very very long shot.

Like Delias said, some people are not here to do a valuable discussion and they have every reason to call those people trolls, 'cause even a smart troll is still a troll. If some people would bother to read something for 5 minutes, rather than just claiming: "hoho, they sell entire new skills", they would not be treated this way.

Oh, and i present the subject about cash shop and point out what I would hate about it and what is the reaction?

Then why are you discussing it?

Then by your own logic, who is the troll? Who would want to stop who from discussing something that might break a game?

[MKing]

They will not be charging for dungeons.. stupid people seriously. They will charge for expansion campaigns, which if they are like GW1 will be huge.