Professions AS actual endgame?

[Pua]

I must admit, I lament losing the profession ethic that existed during The Burning Crusade. The decision to gut professions to the area of pointlessness, just to balance them, was one of the most upsetting decisions ever made by the current derp-elopment team on Blizzard’s jabberwocky, World of Warcraft. Gathering professions are always a bit dull, but there was real depth to the crafting game of blacksmithing, leatherworking, enchanting, tailoring and jewelcrafting.

Not only were there rare patterns and plans to go after for the completion-orientated among us, you could specialise in your art to gain access to patterns that only the crafter could make use of. Add to this the ability to upgrade some of your work rather than just wasting it and you’ve got the basis of a very, VERY good profession system that, truthfully, was almost universally good and still had loads of room for iteration and improvement.

For my part, I was a Master Swordsmith (and I even enjoyed the quests to achieve this; the Shadowmoon Valley line for the Illidari blade was also a blast) and I’m comfortable admitting that one of the major draws of the game for me was hitting 375 with my blacksmithing and learning as many plans as I could. I wanted to be that “one-stop shop” for all my guild’s blacksmithing needs.

Then Ghostcrawler and his cronies took the reins and professions, much like everything else in the game, had their trajectory changed to directly relate to endgame performance. Rather than being developed as an enjoyable and fun avenue for those less interested in raiding or PvP, the specializations and customization were removed and they were all balanced in accordance with the stats they could give your character.

“With great power comes great responsibility”. What a shame Azeroth’s current main men saw fit to change that immortal line to: “from great potential, to great failure”. Just for good measure, a heavy dose of RNG gets lumped into any worthwhile crafts thanks to random drops or spawns of certain necessary materials.

Yuck.

It’s with great trepidation, therefore, that we approach Star Wars: The Old Republic and BioWare’s interpretation of what professions (trade skills) should look like. I have to admit that I wasn’t expecting all that much from trade skills considering the direction BioWare have taken with a lot of the game’s features, but I’ve been pleasantly surprised. Last night I managed to hit 400 on Biochem, Bioanalysis and Investigation; I found it to be a fairly streamlined experience, one that I managed to cap out pretty easily with a good degree of clarity throughout.

The cool thing about trade skills is that you can keep yourself up to date easily with the necessary materials, reverse engineering means those materials go further, and the finding of prototype plans is a nice developmental addition. The fact that you can send your crew to do the dirty work (leaving you to actually play the game), helps this along immensely and removes the tedious grind associated with gathering. The way the materials are ranked also makes it very simple for your companions to be assigned to the right missions, rather than just guessing that they’re spending their time picking up the right stuff.

It’s fair to say I hit the trade skill cap pretty much accidentally which, though proving the system is frustration-free, is the biggest problem I have with it.

I want a crafting system that I can play.

Endgame development for Warcraft professions is tied into raiding. Who’d have thought it? You kill a few bosses and you hope the patterns you need drop (they rarely do). Let’s have a little more RNG with our RNG. Endgame development for Star Wars is practically a 180 degree turn, an effort to remove the RNG and make trade skills far more methodical and formulaic. Essentially, should you want a better version of something specific, you need only make a good number of said items and reverse engineer them for a prototype. Naturally there are some random patterns that can be picked up in boxes/security chests or via other gathering trade skills such as Investigation, Diplomacy or Underworld Trading. But all in all, you know what you’re getting.

Essentially, BioWare have taken the Cataclysm (and latter Wrath of the Lich King) profession system and improved it. They’ve ditched the grind, jettisoned the RNG, made gathering far clearer and found a way to make better use of crafts that would otherwise find their way to the auction house or a vendor.

My gripe is that trade skills could have been so much more, with BioWare’s version of crafting being utterly eclipsed by what we enjoyed in Outland. I’d rather trade skills stopped being a bonus for “real” endgame content and were, instead, their own form of endgame. If you ask a current level cap player what he is in World of Warcraft, you’ll probably get a “lol” from someone who doesn’t understand the question properly. In bygone days they’d be a dungeoneer, a raider, a PvP player, a quest hunter, a collector or a crafter. Nowadays the choice is down to raider or PvP player because everything else is aimed at those two activities (more squarely raiding). The alternative is a series of pointless minigames that have no impact on the larger game world whatsoever.

What’s worrying for MMORPG’s as a genre is the way Blizzard has forced all developers to think. I know this sounds damning and I could be overreacting, but I get the impression that the availability of raids is what everyone is attributing Blizzard’s success to and the more typical MMO staples are being overlooked as a result. Because BioWare has revolutionised MMORPG questing, I had hoped to see them manage something similar with trade skills. I suppose we should be amazed at them defying the impossible and somehow managing to polish a turd, but I’m still feeling a little empty. The goal is to take the frustration out of trade skills, but provide a crafting experience that’s fun, is endgame content in itself, and has a meaningful impact on the rest of the game as a whole.

Despite all of these negatives, there is one overwhelming positive; the potential is there to make trade skills viable endgame without too much internal/code iteration.

My next post will detail how I’d go about this but, for now, how do you think it should be done? Of course, just as importantly, should we even bother about it?

[Miralynn]

I actually agree with a lot of this. There is, however, one thing I do NOT miss about TBC endgame professions - the godawful rep grind. Especially as a JC. If you were a JC and wanted to be any good at it, you were REQUIRED to grind EVERY faction to exalted and that was just such a painful endeavor on a low-pop server that it wasn't even worth it to try.

[Eliot123]

I agree, professions are ''meh'' at best atm. Even the number of patterns in Cata compared to WotLK is small. Wish they'd bring back specializations and such, even if they weren't that important in the grand scheme of things, they still added a bit of depth to the game (which is my biggest beef with WoW in Cata, game is getting more and more shallow, QoL issues are one thing but they are basically just removing all the small, interesting details). It would have been better if they had made current profs more fun than implementing that terribad abomination of a profession called Archaeology.

[Pua]

I actually agree with a lot of this. There is, however, one thing I do NOT miss about TBC endgame professions - the godawful rep grind. Especially as a JC. If you were a JC and wanted to be any good at it, you were REQUIRED to grind EVERY faction to exalted and that was just such a painful endeavor on a low-pop server that it wasn't even worth it to try.

I deliberately left out the reputation grinds though I don’t necessarily agree with you. Personally, I like grinding out reputations but find daily quests to be a horrible way of doing it; I much prefer the Mag’har/Sons of Hodir version where you can grind mobs that also drop turn in items (I don’t like the dungeon tabards, I might add).

All I would say is that the patterns should only be on reputation grinds that make sense, and probably no more than Revered. The aforementioned Sons of Hodir, for example, are unlikely to be experts in engineering, whereas the ogres at Ogri’la are probably well versed in gemcutting.

I think using factions can be a good way of linking professions to the wider game, but not where you have to grind everything to Exalted. To me, “factions” like the Mithril Order or Thorium Brotherhood were the best examples of this.

[Emane]

I agree in what you say, as an achievement hunter, I like to get Exalted with factions, but I want something that benefits my professions as well, having to gain Revered or Exalted with that special faction will mean something when you know most people don't grind until Exalted.

I also agree with you about the "grinds". I like the way they handled Netherwing, Ogri'la and Sha'Tar. Yes you have daily quests which eventually will get you Exalted, or you can grind mobs that will get you there when you have time. Giving both opinions, you don't gate the content for those that want to focus on it. Or say that you will cap your 25 dailies with other factions, and you can still grind mobs with that special one.

I also don't agree with how they handled Hyjal rep this expansion, what's the point in having a faction that you will be close to exalted with by leveling from that zone anyway? Factions should be a choice, and yes, you can have something like Alliance Vanguard, that is like the big faction for an expansion, put something like small rewards on them, or nice to have patterns. Like for example the new bag could be on that. Or Chopper (as it was in Wrath). Gives you something to aim for but not needed.

And then you have the optional factions, which will give you something extra, that gives you the special patterns for something. Like Thorium Brotherhood. What will make people get out an face this "world pvp" again? Well, take away rep tabards. Make people do dailies to get the rep they need. Imagine that if you needed rep with Earthen Ring, you would have had to kill mobs/do dailies in Vashj'ir/Deepholm, then alot more people would be out, killing mobs/doing dailies. Would make the world feel alot more alive.

Now, you have people getting to friendly, and then sit in a city, doing a dungeon that the faction dosn't even care about, and still getting rep with them. Is it easier? Yes. Is it more awarding/accomplished? No. It will also help people getting bored of the game to have something to do. I remember in TBC when me and a friend said. "Lets get Sha'tar Exalted for the cloaks." We took a weekend and grinded the shit out of that place. Killing any horde that crossed our way. If this would have been during wrath/cata it would have been "Okay, *pushes button to queue for dungeon.*".

[GennGreymane]

i always wanted thier to be full on profession quests for some sets

i remember in TBC you could craft gear sets that lasted well into t5 even t6 (yep boomkin in bright red pants till black temple)

maybe rewards like that for quests, that invovle travel, npcs, some lore, maybe a quest boss or 2

make it cool to learn things

[Magruun]

completely agree, on alts I don't bother with professions as it adds almost nothing, quest rewards are good enough and on my main I only have 2 crafting professions for the 80 stat bonus. which is bonkers too as I was a herbalist for ages but because of the poor bonus I switched to Alchemy.

[heal]

everquest 2 trade skills rocked can be just a crafter and lvl up in that side of things and to make stuff you actually use workbenchs with all kinds of sliders and balancing to get the most from your mats and hopefully make your item really awsome every time you make something you feel like you achieving something not just storing mats and watching a list tick thru

[cochinojoe]

I never got a high enough BS skill back in the day when they had master swordsmith...etc etc...but I thought that was such a fantastic idea.

[mvaliz]

I'd love to see an emphasis on professions again as REAL professions, side elements to the game with just as much depth as raiding has. That's what I miss from other MMOs... the professions (indeed, most other aspects of the game outside of raiding) seem to be just there as some kind of mini-adendum to the raiding aspect of the game. Like a side-distraction almost.

Though I don't want the main Best-in-slot profession item/weapons back in. Yes, I'm an Engineer, and yes - I loved the BiS helms I got. But I also happen to agree with Blizz's decision that they didn't want people to feel like they need to choose a specific profession JUST to be able to maximize raiding potential.

[Anjerith]

I fondly remember the early days, when you could use your Mind-Control helmet to force people to drown themselves in small ponds of water.

[roflpot]

May I be the first to recommend ultima online? Not the current retail crap. Google "UOSA".

Some people play it for years without ever fighting anything.

[Deleted]

I actually agree with a lot of this. There is, however, one thing I do NOT miss about TBC endgame professions - the godawful rep grind. Especially as a JC. If you were a JC and wanted to be any good at it, you were REQUIRED to grind EVERY faction to exalted and that was just such a painful endeavor on a low-pop server that it wasn't even worth it to try.

Most JC earned 5 times as much as other proffs, so I don't think you can complain to much about grinding. :P

[Pua]

May I be the first to recommend ultima online? Not the current retail crap. Google "UOSA".

Some people play it for years without ever fighting anything.

Thank you, I'll have a look. I mean, I'm still having a blast playing Star Wars at the moment but I worry that the raiding treadmill is about to repeat and I won't go through that again. I got PM'd a link to some of the Guild Wars 2 information regarding crafting, and that's also very interesting.

It's good to see that I'm not the only one who misses his professions, though. It's a shame Blizzard chose to water everything down and launch new "features" when making what they already have fun and compelling would be a better use of their time. I'd rather have one good feature than ten bland ones, but I suppose the big bucks are made from sucking in as many people as possible rather than giving folks immersive things to do.

[Banzhe]

A very well written n' deep post Thylacine, I can only agree with you.., and sincerely hope you've posted this on the Bnet forums where it might do some good, here you'll at best get some agreements, and probably also the usual amount of flames.

[Greyvax]

The problem was people that whined about how X profession got X item that was better than their own profession. Then you had those people who complained that certain specializations such as weaponsmithing had better rewards than armorsmithing.

As a result, there would be a huge rush of people constantly stacking on weaponsmithing -> hammer smithing, because Deep Thunder was overpowered in PvP. Blizzard eradicated this whole system because they didn't want people to feel obligated to go hammer smithing just to be competitive, when in actuality it's because of their own faulty balancing issues.

[Deleted]

I did like the fact when patterns dropped by going to farm certain mobs or do quests. Now too few patterns makes everyone the same.
Professions are essential to make money, though. Its all become a bit dull. Plenty of JCs are existing on just shuffling the 3 red cuts and then dumping all other colouts as pretty useless.

[Thallidomaniac]

The problem was people that whined about how X profession got X item that was better than their own profession. Then you had those people who complained that certain specializations such as weaponsmithing had better rewards than armorsmithing.

As a result, there would be a huge rush of people constantly stacking on weaponsmithing -> hammer smithing, because Deep Thunder was overpowered in PvP. Blizzard eradicated this whole system because they didn't want people to feel obligated to go hammer smithing just to be competitive, when in actuality it's because of their own faulty balancing issues.

There was also the fact that people had to stack buffs from certain professions just to get a raid boss kill, notably the haste drums back in BC. I'd rather not have to drop LW just to get a haste buff just to get a boss down.

[painweaver]

...the most upsetting decisions ever made by the current derp-elopment team on Blizzard’s jabberwocky, World of Warcraft.

^this line basically describes the fundamental problem.

this derp-eloment team has gutted everything. every class is now the same, i.e., an aoe-tank-dps-selfhealing-pet class (minus only one of any of those given variables and I just described every class). professions are no longer interesting because they are more or less the same in the end.

they have removed every little small detail that made the game interesting, dynamic, and gave it that mmo feel.

A part of me died inside when i first read that they removed the world-chests. Sure, there was usually some shitty food and a piece of cloth in them, but you did have a chance to find a rare or epic; this is an example of the mmo dynamic that is missing. just another one of those *special* things that made the game just a tiny bit cooler, but it's gone now; those little things add up quick, i might add.

[Pua]

A very well written n' deep post Thylacine, I can only agree with you.., and sincerely hope you've posted this on the Bnet forums where it might do some good, here you'll at best get some agreements, and probably also the usual amount of flames.

I’m afraid I’m sat in a permanent forum ban for daring to be critical, while suggesting some improvements to other parts of the game. Feel free to post it there on my (Zellviren, Kilrogg EU) behalf if you think any good will come of it.

And this thread is blessedly free of flames, which is almost a first.

As a result, there would be a huge rush of people constantly stacking on weaponsmithing -> hammer smithing, because Deep Thunder was overpowered in PvP. Blizzard eradicated this whole system because they didn't want people to feel obligated to go hammer smithing just to be competitive, when in actuality it's because of their own faulty balancing issues.

I agree. This is the reason continually trotted out, and it’s my major misgiving; something that could have great depth is blunted because of raiding/PvP and the inability to balance it properly. It’s not as if it’s that hard, too.

Professions are essential to make money, though. Its all become a bit dull. Plenty of JCs are existing on just shuffling the 3 red cuts and then dumping all other colouts as pretty useless.

Seriously, I started playing the game to be a master blacksmith; well known on my server for being a tradesman of unique skill. Now, I’m a half-cooked jewelcrafter for the same reason you describe, with my blacksmithing wares limited to glove and bracer sockets. What a let down.

this derp-eloment team has gutted everything. every class is now the same, i.e., an aoe-tank-dps-selfhealing-pet class (minus only one of any of those given variables and I just described every class). professions are no longer interesting because they are more or less the same in the end.

they have removed every little small detail that made the game interesting, dynamic, and gave it that mmo feel.

A part of me died inside when i first read that they removed the world-chests. Sure, there was usually some shitty food and a piece of cloth in them, but you did have a chance to find a rare or epic; this is an example of the mmo dynamic that is missing. just another one of those *special* things that made the game just a tiny bit cooler, but it's gone now; those little things add up quick, i might add.

I recall reading the Aggronaut talking about how he fell out of love with Rift once he realised that everything was in the game for a purpose. Not just “there for fun” or to add flavour n’ fluff, but everything had a quest/raid/dungeon related purpose for existing.

I, too, miss the special things. :’(