Turning off the "5% buff" is not an option...

[Derpyhooves]

It's not a "responsible" option to turn off the nerf system, unless you can guaranty that everyone in your raid will stick around and not care about anything other than killing it on "super hard mode".

Ok we have well and truely established that nobody is going to turn off the buff. So again, how is that a problem if EVERYONE is using it. Everyone is still competing at the same level of difficulty. The people who killed stuff prenerf already are ahead, no matter if you kill stuff now with nerf or without you are still behind. And if you get realm first with the nerf then grats you are still realm first.

I really don't understand the problem. This is one of those purely psychological things.

[Paulosio]

Will there be any recognition for doing it without? If there is a achievement for it then i think its ok.

There wasn't in ICC and I doubt there will be this time

[Yousend]

Ok we have well and truely established that nobody is going to turn off the buff. So again, how is that a problem if EVERYONE is using it. Everyone is still competing at the same level of difficulty. The people who killed stuff prenerf already are ahead, no matter if you kill stuff now with nerf or without you are still behind. And if you get realm first with the nerf then grats you are still realm first.

I really don't understand the problem. This is one of those purely psychological things.

Some people enjoy a difficult challenge while others would rather go the easy route.

If half your raid wants to do the raids without buffs, while the other half just wants to get a kill ASAP... You have a dilemma. Do you drop the buff and risk losing the half that wants to buff (To be honest, those people will probably whine and quit, at least from experience) or do you just proceed with the buff? You can safely assume that most people who want to do it without the buff will realize that it's rare to find other people that want to do it without the buff and stick around.

Why do you think old content guilds are so rare? Especially those that put restrictions on themselves, such as "only gear and enchants that were available at the time" guilds? They can still do it, but they don't because it's hard to get the group going.

[btu10]

Ok we have well and truely established that nobody is going to turn off the buff. So again, how is that a problem if EVERYONE is using it. Everyone is still competing at the same level of difficulty. The people who killed stuff prenerf already are ahead, no matter if you kill stuff now with nerf or without you are still behind. And if you get realm first with the nerf then grats you are still realm first.

I really don't understand the problem. This is one of those purely psychological things.

I dont care about the next guild over (though a bit of healthy competition adds to the fun); I care about the satisfaction I get from slaying some baddies. Easier game = less satisfaction. Simple as that really.

And as you say turning off the buff isnt an option for any guild with a casual roster. Casual rosters are varied rosters meaning just like a beginner player is going to select beginner difficulty in their first FPS, a casual raid group (the ones most impacted by this change) is going to take the easiest difficulty available.

[fangless]

People are so butt hurt over 5%.

This is funny.

[Kzilla]

Here's the vibe I'm getting:

Getting limited number of random drops to buff random raiders = perfect
Getting a flat buff to all raid members across the board = stupid

Why are people ok with being 4/8, 5/8 or 6/8 because they've collected 12-16 weeks of dragonsoul loot but lose their shit over a 5% nerf?

I used to think of it as a ladder. "Are we good enough to get 12/12H icc by 15%? Not even close. Let's make 20%! Damn, just missed it. Looks like we're a 25% guild fml." (true story)

[Deleted]

Op is a troll , killed yor'sahj yesterday and us 150? as if. more like 1000 rofl

[Akraen]

Interesting thing about this tier seems to be moreso that it requires gear to a much higher degree than execution of strategy to defeat encounters with sub-optimal raid comps or skilled DPS.

The debuff is a much smarter approach than the ICC buff in that it helps account for DPSers out there in the world who just aren't top-guild quality. Even guilds like mine in the US-100 range of 25-man raiding have several people weighing us down in terms of numbers.

Unfortunately the 10 vs. 25-man debate even bleeds into this category. We got Yor'sahj 25-M Heroic last week, US #120, yet nearly 900 10-man guilds had already done it. Pretty ridiculous I'd say. The lack of checks and requirements for DPS on 10-man will mean a further debuff will further discourage 25-man raiding. As I see it, my job as a guild master going forward is going to begin to become excruciatingly difficult keeping 25 people together, interested, and willing to go forward. The only thing helping it will be that debuff, because I anticipate 22-23 manning some of these heroics soon with the way pre-expansion attrition works.

/sigh

---------- Post added 2012-01-19 at 11:41 PM ----------

Op is a troll , killed yor'sahj yesterday and us 150? as if. more like 1000 rofl

Only approx ~160 guilds in the US have defeated Heroic 25-man Yor'sahj, see my post. 10-man might as well be normal.

[TatManTat]

Why the fuck is it all about competition>challenge, who gives a fuck who did something first, if you complain about the challenge not being there you have to decide why you play
do you play to beat others?
or do you play because you like the challenge?
toughen up and make a decision, Blizzard can do what they want, dont fuckin whine every time something happens

[Seprest]

Why the fuck is it all about competition>challenge, who gives a fuck who did something first, if you complain about the challenge not being there you have to decide why you play
do you play to beat others?
or do you play because you like the challenge?
toughen up and make a decision, Blizzard can do what they want, dont fuckin whine every time something happens

A lot of people do play the game to compete with other players. I believe a lot also feel cheated out of playing through content at the same difficulty as others, especially since the nerfs came unprecedentedly early.

[nehunter]

Kill the bosses first with the "buff nerf thing." Then, go back and kill them without it if it means that much to you. You still keep your world rank and you still get the satisfaction of killing the boss without the nerf. Wasnt Heroic LK killed first with the ICC buff, then Paragon went back and killed it with the buff turned off?

They went back, ages after they ended their farm. Nope, Paragon used the buff, in all but 1 out of 35+ runs.

[Johnmatrix]

This nerf changes nothing with the competition. Everyone is gonna use it anyway, you can still be server first after the nerfs. It's not like after a 5% nerf all the 1/8 guilds overtake you and score a 8/8 next week. It's not a nerf like that.

Which one is your problem really here? Lack of challenge? Not wanting to do it with nerfs? Afraid of losing a race for the top guild? Lack of things to qq?

[mmff4]

Lets say you dont know anything about two guilds you are considering to apply.

Guild A killed all the bosses without the buff. They are ranked at 440.
Guild B killed all the bosses with the buff. They are ranked at 380.

Judging by the World Rank "Guild B" is better, when in fact "Guild A" is better, as they managed to kill everything without the buff. Most people who have applied to us have said the only thing they checked, was the world rank (Well, in our case rank between Danish-only guilds).

If we purposely chop our legs off just because "legs are optional", we are hurting our recruitment process and thus lowering our chances to kill bosses in the future.

The "race" isn't just between the top10 guilds. Every guild has its opponent, as do most F1-teams for example. MacLaren, Ferrari and Red Bull are racing against each other. HRT or Lotus don't really have a chance to beat Red Bull or Ferrari in a fair race. But they are still racing against each other. If both of them have a chance to use new tyres, both of them will use new tyres.

Obviously if you're playing "just for fun" with your friends you can turn the buff off if you so desire. But lets be honest, if you want to stay competitive at any level, you can't turn the buff off. You simply can't.

[asharia]

You can see every fight in LFR

that was the point of LFR right?


guess not

[Theholypally]

No matter how many paragraphs you post or people you feebly attempt to insult, it will still be an option.

Sucks doesn't it?

[Brett Skullcrack]

No matter how many paragraphs you post or people you feebly attempt to insult, it will still be an option.

It's option in the sense that it's technically possible to use. It's not a realistic option since using it will almost guarantee your guild will die out as a result of getting left behind in progress.

[Dazzy]

Anyone who plays WoW to raid understands why you simply cannot turn off the 5% buff.

Yesterday a friend from an old server I played on messaged me screaming "WE KILLED YOR'SAHJ US 150!!" or something like that...

See, now to MMO, US 150th is nothing, who cares right? WRONG. US 150 for people who only raid 12-16 hours a week is a very big deal.. and continuing to try to improve that is an even bigger deal.

So, when 5% comes out, if this guild decides not to use it, they will drop to US 200, or US 250 lets say... so in this race (which only ends when the xpac ends), we have NO choice but to use the 5% buff to stay competitive.

Another thing is many servers dont have a server first deathwing yet... this is still up for grabs, and extremely important to many people. This 5% buff will make the difference in who gets it first.. you think the guild who is _ALMOST_ there is going to ignore it because it's the right thing to do?

Anyone who says "just turn off the buff" is ignorant and not a real raider (EDIT: In my opinion :P). Just because it doesn't matter to you, doesn't mean it doesn't matter to others. So the next time you say "Just turn the buff off", think to yourself "who am i kidding??" The race is still on, many servers haven't done it yet, and are still pushing their very best to do so...

Infracted. Declaring something to be an opinion and adding a smiley face to it doesn't change the fact that its non-constructive and insulting. - Wilderness

I'll be watching this thread, keep it constructive please. - Azshira.

The "race" is long over, stop kidding yourself. If you want to compete with friends, that's fine, convince them to turn it off too.

Also "Option" - Something you can choose to do or not do.

The people whining are in the minority here, sorry about your luck. We the 99% don't care about YOUR epeen.

[Vegemeat]

It's option in the sense that it's technically possible to use. It's not a realistic option since using it will almost guarantee your guild will die out as a result of getting left behind in progress.

Guilds that NEED the buff to progress are already left behind in progress. The race is over, "real raiders" already know this.

[Abandon]

It's option in the sense that it's technically possible to use. It's not a realistic option since using it will almost guarantee your guild will die out as a result of getting left behind in progress.

If your guild dies because of 5% difference in boss health and damage, that says more about your guild than it does the nerf.

[Deleted]

Turning off the 5% buff is as much of an option as raiding with a subpar spec, or with a subpar gear set. You can do it; however, I doubt anyone would want to purposefully gimp themself, unless you've already progressed through everything.

This doesn't change the fact that it's still an option though.