U.S. Presidential race - Democrat Discussion

[belfpala]

we can only hope it's done on nov 6... *flashes back to 2000*

/shakes fist at Scalia and Florida.

[bergmann620]

So then by that logic the country gets better the more we want to kill each other. The Civil War should have been the very height of good governance! I guess the deaths of hundreds of thousands of your countrymen and the destruction of half the country are ideal results.

Where did I say 'better'? What the fuck are you talking about?

Distrust and divisiveness benefit no American. As you so clearly point out, much of it is artificially generated for profit, and people who profit by dividing America are the enemies of everything this country stands for.

Agreed. What I don't get is how you think this is a point against me?

---------- Post added 2012-09-29 at 05:13 PM ----------

Chicken or egg?

Media and campaigning is definitely the chicken here, that's shitting out the egg. Our politicians are largely the same as they've ever been- we're just more aware of both their deeds, but also the lies about their deeds.

It's the same all across public life. We pretty much don't get to have heroes any more, whether they are politicians, sports stars, soldiers, etc. Kind of sucks

[belfpala]

It's the same all across public life. We pretty much don't get to have heroes any more, whether they are politicians, sports stars, soldiers, etc. Kind of sucks

Idk, I'm watching baseball right now, and just watched an at bat by a guy I'd consider a hero, against a pitcher I'd also consider a hero.

Politicians though... ehh. no.

[Spectral]

It's the same all across public life. We pretty much don't get to have heroes any more, whether they are politicians, sports stars, soldiers, etc. Kind of sucks

I have heroes! It's just that rather than politicians or sports stars, they're scientists, writers, and brewers (and the occasional entrepreneur).

[belfpala]

I have heroes! It's just that rather than politicians or sports stars, they're scientists, writers, and brewers (and the occasional entrepreneur).

Oh yeah, I have a few of those too. I was just talking to the owner of one of my favorite local breweries (so... hero because brewer AND entrepreneur!).

[Spectral]

Yeah, one of the people that came to mind for me was Sam Calagione. I don't know that you'd actually call him a brewer, but he's in the business and I'd consider him a hero. Another was David Walker, who I got to meet and listen to a fair bit at a beer dinner (at Birch and Barley, if you know DC restaurants at all). Really, really cool guy, and amazing beers. Much respect for the brewer/owners, that's a lot of work and know how.

[belfpala]

Another was David Walker, who I got to meet and listen to a fair bit at a beer dinner...

I've only been to DC once, and I was about 14.

Circling back to politics. I know quite a few entrepreneurs, and my summary of what we want is simple: certainty. The current government isn't providing that. I personally blame Congress, but I can easily see how others might blame Obama.

[Spectral]

Despite Krugman (and others, he's just the most prominent) chiding people about the "confidence fairy", I have to agree that a lack of reasonable certainty is a very real problem. I agree with the "confidence fairy" point when it comes to downplaying the value of austerity budgets, but I wholesale disagree when it comes to certainty. Business owners need to know what's going to happen so they can plan; I'd rather tell a business owner that he has to pay X tax dollars (even if it's more than he'd like) than leave him uncertain of what he'll owe.

[belfpala]

Right. "reasonable certainty" is a better way to put it. I know every investment is a risk, and that's fine.

[Deleted]

Despite Krugman (and others, he's just the most prominent) chiding people about the "confidence fairy", I have to agree that a lack of reasonable certainty is a very real problem. I agree with the "confidence fairy" point when it comes to downplaying the value of austerity budgets, but I wholesale disagree when it comes to certainty. Business owners need to know what's going to happen so they can plan; I'd rather tell a business owner that he has to pay X tax dollars (even if it's more than he'd like) than leave him uncertain of what he'll owe.

"Regime Uncertainty". The markets (and thus prices of energy, oil and other input the company may need) are almost completely driven by speculation about what politicians and central banks will do next. This is an extremely bad scenario, especially when it doesn't even provide confidence. Normally you'd want the market to be driven by different results of companies or reports about the rice harvest of this year etc.

[FusedMass]

I went on HuffPost and saw the numbers for this expensive war that Bush put us in.

We hit a bit a miletstone.

Afghanistan War: 2,000th U.S. Soldier Killed In Insider Attack

I still do not know why we're there.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1926536.html

[Deadvolcanoes]

I went on HuffPost and saw the numbers for this expensive war that Bush put us in.

We hit a bit a miletstone.

Afghanistan War: 2,000th U.S. Soldier Killed In Insider Attack

I still do not know why we're there.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1926536.html

Yes, Bush got us into that war, but Obama hasn't gotten us out. In fact, he expanded war efforts in Afghanistan.

You might be interested to know that 2/3 of US casualties in Afghanistan have happened under Obama.

www.justforeignpolicy.org/obamavsbush

[FusedMass]

Yes, Bush got us into that war, but Obama hasn't gotten us out. In fact, he expanded war efforts in Afghanistan.

You might be interested to know that 2/3 of US casualties in Afghanistan have happened under Obama.

www.justforeignpolicy.org/obamavsbush

From my understanding Obama head into Liyba without a single solider on the ground. I understand it's Obama's job to get us out . I thought also he ended one of the war's in middle east early? It's insane to put a man in charge (Mitt Romeny) who would "respect Israel right to strike Iran"

I think I know why. Call me crazy but Romeny has oil investment's in China's Oil, Russia Oil. We spend a ton of oil when we do have a war. Wouldn't any drama in middle east equal to rise in gas prices. Maybe I should look for my tin foil hat. But I wouldn't put it past them.

[Deleted]

I thought also he ended one of the war's in middle east early?

He didn't. The pullout of the troops from Iraq had already been agreed upon by Bush and the Iraqi government. Obama had no choice.

[smelltheglove]

I think I know why. Call me crazy but Romeny has oil investment's in China's Oil, Russia Oil. We spend a ton of oil when we do have a war. Wouldn't any drama in middle east equal to rise in gas prices. Maybe I should look for my tin foil hat. But I wouldn't put it past them.

i suspect it has far more to do with anti-muslim military action playing hard to his base, and being seen as militarily aggressive is somehow construed as "supporting the military". ive always considered that part as a major cognitive dissonance myself, i personally see respect for the military as not being cavalier with the lives of our service men and women, but i guess that makes me a commie

[FusedMass]

He didn't. The pullout of the troops from Iraq had already been agreed upon by Bush and the Iraqi government. Obama had no choice.

I don't know it doesn't cite the terms agreed ed on Bush. He cites a promise kept by his own campaign. Your sincerely saying Bush had already planned to end the war. He started. I don't see them praising Bush in the article.

"Obama: Withdraw Iraq Troops by December"

Obama's statement put an end to months of wrangling over whether the U.S. would maintain a force in Iraq beyond 2011. He never mentioned the tense and ultimately fruitless negotiations with Iraq over whether to keep several thousand U.S. forces in Iraq as a training force and a hedge against meddling from Iran or other outside forces.

Instead, Obama spoke of a promise kept, a new day for a self-reliant Iraq and a focus on building up the economy at home.

"I can report that, as promised, the rest of our troops in Iraq will come home by the end of the year," Obama said. "After nearly nine years, America's war in Iraq will be over."

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/US-...0/21/id/415330

[Deleted]

I don't know it doesn't cite the terms agreed ed on Bush. He cites a promise kept by his own campaign. Your sincerely saying Bush had already planned to end the war. He started. I don't see them praising Bush in the article.

"Obama: Withdraw Iraq Troops by December"

Obama's statement put an end to months of wrangling over whether the U.S. would maintain a force in Iraq beyond 2011. He never mentioned the tense and ultimately fruitless negotiations with Iraq over whether to keep several thousand U.S. forces in Iraq as a training force and a hedge against meddling from Iran or other outside forces.

Instead, Obama spoke of a promise kept, a new day for a self-reliant Iraq and a focus on building up the economy at home.

"I can report that, as promised, the rest of our troops in Iraq will come home by the end of the year," Obama said. "After nearly nine years, America's war in Iraq will be over."

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/US-...0/21/id/415330

Yeah well the deadline for pulling the troops was decided by Bush, and Obama followed that deadline. That's it.

[FusedMass]

Yeah well the deadline for pulling the troops was decided by Bush, and Obama followed that deadline. That's it.

I have to say not giving Obama any credit is a bit of a strech. Obama for example wants to put in his Affordable Health Care. Romeny has vowed to repeal it on day one and no doubt a bunch of other law Obama wants passed. He's vowed to "repeal and replace" my point is. Obama did not have to follow it and Bush shouldn't get credit because he started the entire war in first place.

[Deleted]

I have to say not giving Obama any credit is a bit of a strech. Obama for example wants to put in his Affordable Health Care. Romeny has vowed to repeal it on day one and no doubt a bunch of other law Obama wants passed. He's vowed to "repeal and replace" my point is. Obama did not have to follow it and Bush shouldn't get credit because he started the entire war in first place.

I don't really care to argue about who gets credit because you're about as Obamabot as a person can be. It's like you're paid to post praises of Obama.

[FusedMass]

I don't really care to argue about who gets credit because you're about as Obamabot as a person can be. It's like you're paid to post praises of Obama.

And your a Bush Bot. Think about it. Bush started the war against the UN wishes. He got us into this mess. Now you want to praise him from bringing the troops home. He's the one who sent them away for ten years. An average deployment is 1-2 years a at a time. I mean come on.