U.S. Presidential race - Democrat Discussion

[smelltheglove]

That's why ramping up the fuel efficiency standards and working on hybrid and electric vehicles NOW is so important. Because when the crunch comes you'll already be transitioning to a different system and so things will go fairly smoothly.

i happen to agree with you. 1: because if we dont have new tech in place it's a fucking cliff we're driving off of, 2: it's inevitable, and the further up we are on the curve the better off we will be, 3: i like classic cars, and want to be able to drive them forever. so i want all the gas left to me :P

[Deleted]

That's why ramping up the fuel efficiency standards and working on hybrid and electric vehicles NOW is so important. Because when the crunch comes you'll already be transitioning to a different system and so things will go fairly smoothly.

What "the crunch" are you talking about?

[ptwonline]

i happen to agree with you. 1: because if we dont have new tech in place it's a fucking cliff we're driving off of, 2: it's inevitable, and the further up we are on the curve the better off we will be, 3: i like classic cars, and want to be able to drive them forever. so i want all the gas left to me :P

Gas production can continue for centuries if there's demand since some of the extraction (like in Canada) is slow and the reserves are huge. The problem is actually peak oil and overall world demand.

---------- Post added 2012-10-16 at 10:42 PM ----------

What "the crunch" are you talking about?

When increasing fuel efficiencies and trying to increase oil production can no longer meet the demand especially with all of the emerging economies and their upcoming boom in cars. When that happens prices could skyrocket in a very, very short amount of time. The market is very sensitive to even small shortages since oil is so critical.

[smelltheglove]

am i the only one that cant help but think about the mad max movies whenever a gas thread comes up?

[belfpala]

am i the only one that cant help but think about the mad max movies whenever a gas thread comes up?

Nope. You're not alone.

[Deleted]

When increasing fuel efficiencies and trying to increase oil production can no longer meet the demand especially with all of the emerging economies and their upcoming boom in cars. When that happens prices could skyrocket in a very, very short amount of time. The market is very sensitive to even small shortages since oil is so critical.

You do realize that the markets look a bit further ahead than just the next year, eh?

Small shortages of oil can happen at any moment due to political instability, accidents or bankrupcies. It's not linked to declining oil reserves.

---------- Post added 2012-10-16 at 10:46 PM ----------

am i the only one that cant help but think about the mad max movies whenever a gas thread comes up?

Oh ye, of little faith

[ptwonline]

You do realize that the markets look a bit further ahead than just the next year, eh?

Small shortages of oil can happen at any moment due to political instability, accidents or bankrupcies. It's not linked to declining oil reserves.

And when they see the shortage coming prices will spike. What's your point? It's not like somebody is going to be pumping gas, it will stop halfway through, and the whole world erupts in terror "OMFG WE'RE OUT OF GAS!"

Current small shortages of oil produce spikes. Just wait until the shortage is persistent and permanent.

[belfpala]

Small shortages of oil can happen at any moment due to political instability, accidents or bankrupcies. It's not linked to declining oil reserves.

Yet.

It will be.

[KingHorse]

So I found this to be oddly amusing. Spent way more time on the site than I probably should have!

Http://www.romneytaxplan.com

Here's the problem I have with that site and the continuous repeating of this lie that he will institute "$5Billion in tax cuts that favor the rich."

He is simultaneously attacked for (A) providing no details of said plan and (B) the made up details someone else says are in the plan.

So which is it? Is his plan horrible and toploaded for the rich? Or has he provided no details? You can't have both.

[Spectral]

Here's the problem I have with that site and the continuous repeating of this lie that he will institute "$5Billion in tax cuts that favor the rich."

He is simultaneously attacked for (A) providing no details of said plan and (B) the made up details someone else says are in the plan.

So which is it? Is his plan horrible and toploaded for the rich? Or has he provided no details? You can't have both.

It seems like you're deliberately misunderstanding - what people are saying amounts to, "from what you've told us, it looks like a $5 billion tax cut for the wealthy". Romney's stock reply is, "no it's not", to which people are replying back, "so, what is the plan then?".

[Deleted]

And when they see the shortage coming prices will spike. What's your point? It's not like somebody is going to be pumping gas, it will stop halfway through, and the whole world erupts in terror "OMFG WE'RE OUT OF GAS!"

They're pretty well aware of the future production. The price oil will gradually increase (apart from random bubbles along the way) and so will the profitability of alternative energy sources.

[Dakia]

It seems like you're deliberately misunderstanding - what people are saying amounts to, "from what you've told us, it looks like a $5 billion tax cut for the wealthy". Romney's stock reply is, "no it's not", to which people are replying back, "so, what is the plan then?".

The plan is as stated, to have Congress go about deciding how to offset the tax percentage reduction. Ryan stated that a bipartisan commission would be formed for that purpose.

[Spectral]

The plan is as stated, to have Congress go about deciding how to offset the tax percentage reduction. Ryan stated that a bipartisan commission would be formed for that purpose.

I'm aware this is their stated position. Taken at face value, it means they have no tax plan at all.

[Dakia]

I'm aware this is their stated position. Taken at face value, it means they have no tax plan at all.

How is that not having a plan? They have an idea, a goal, and a general end which they wish to accomplish. We can't sit here, bitching and moaning about partisanship in the US and then throw away a plan which aims to include everyone in the discussion by saying that such a thing doesn't constitute a valid plan.

[Spectral]

How is that not having a plan? They have an idea, a goal, and a general end which they wish to accomplish. We can't sit here, bitching and moaning about partisanship in the US and then throw away a plan which aims to include everyone in the discussion by saying that such a thing doesn't constitute a valid plan.

Saying, "we'll cut taxes, but leave it up to Congress to figure out how to raise them" isn't a plan, it's magic thinking. They might as well tell everyone that they'll get a free pony, but the cost will be offset by revenue from selling sparkledorf.

[Dakia]

Saying, "we'll cut taxes, but leave it up to Congress to figure out how to raise them" isn't a plan, it's magic thinking. They might as well tell everyone that they'll get a free pony, but the cost will be offset by revenue from selling sparkledorf.

Alright, by your definition then, Obama doesn't have a plan for corporate taxes. He has stated that he wants to lower the rate, but reduce the number of deductions. This will effectively increase the tax received from corporations (yes, this is a very general outline). However, he hasn't stipulated which deductions he will remove. Is this not a plan?

[Wells]

No, its not great. But its still less magical thinking.

[Dakia]

No, its not great. But its still less magical thinking.

It is a plan though, but any rational definition of the term.

If someone can find me a politician that laid out every single detail of their goals during a campaign in modern political history, I'll give that person a cookie. It simply doesn't happen. Sure, there may be some details, but that really isn't the point of a political campaign. You are selling an idea, not the details. I can't remember any time when that has actually been the case. To say that Romney doesn't have a plan is just as disingenuous as saying that Obama does when they are effectively doing the same thing.

[ptwonline]

They're pretty well aware of the future production. The price oil will gradually increase (apart from random bubbles along the way) and so will the profitability of alternative energy sources.

I think you understimate how rapidly India, China, and other developing nations will move to more cars, and how rapidly this will spike demand and prices. That change will happen in about a decade once it truly starts. Not nearly enough time for other things to suddenly ramp up and take over without causing huge disruption.

Profitability is not enough. There is technological and basic sciences advances that need to be made. You can't just wait until the market is viable and THEN go after it. Well, you CAN I suppose if you want someone else to be the next energy barons and having to pay them instead of having the jobs and the money domestically.

[Spectral]

A plan that hinges entirely on the actions of people who have shown a remarkable inability to act on anything is not a plan at all. Using tu quoque fallacies won't change that at all.