Necromancer Discussion Thread

[Deleted]

I didn't like dagger for PvP at all because that is indeed a melee weapon and you will have to be in melee range, not like the axe where you can still cast from the distance. But still curious to hear what your thoughts are after you played it. So I'm hoping for some feedback.

As a main hand I wasn't too fond of it myself but it can be quite good.
What I thought was by far the most fun and effective build I tried out was a sceptre+dagger(offhand) and Staff to switch to then focus on the self-condition skills and start out by doing that, putting conditions on yourself and enemies, then using the dagger off-hand swarm ability to transfer the conditions from you onto your enemy effectively double dotting them.

Was definitely incredibly effective in PvP at the least.

So for necromancers, axes and scepters and staves are all ranged attacks, and dagger is melee attacks?

Yes, given that Axes are medium range.
Daggers were melee range (130)
Axes were medium range (600)
Sceptres were long range (900)
Staves were long range (1200)

Those are more or less the range they work at. (At least, their first ability. Obviously things like Life Drain from the daggers had a bit more range, I think 300)

[Darkster]

hey guys check out my necro pvp footage from beta.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBw0wsMiT8s

feel free to comment/flame/whatever else you have to say
and enjoy

[mafao]

About daggers: from my experience, they did tons more damage than other weapons. The trick is getting close though

[Marn]

Hm so what about the offhands, were they also effective at different ranges?

[Deleted]

Offhands
Warhorn : 600
Dagger : 1200-900
Focus : 900

I'm gonna test this build, i'm not sure for the last 5 points, maybe in Curse for Withering Precision(critics cause weakeness) or in Soul Reaping for Strength of Undeath(+power) but I don't know how much power you have at high lvl...

[Ridge Reapers]

I am a Charr Necro, and for pvp i found that the staff is way better than the axe/horn and the double daggers. also for my right bar i decided to use mostly the pets, exept for one slot in which i used the skill that weakens the opponents armor. I found that this was the best for me because the pets did most of the damage and the dots on the ground feared and slowed the opponent so that they could barely touch me.

[Jibjub]

I am a Charr Necro, and for pvp i found that the staff is way better than the axe/horn and the double daggers. also for my right bar i decided to use mostly the pets, exept for one slot in which i used the skill that weakens the opponents armor. I found that this was the best for me because the pets did most of the damage and the dots on the ground feared and slowed the opponent so that they could barely touch me.

Personally I'll be rolling with a DS build in pvp ... I didn't care for the minions (hated the heal minion). Not only do they look silly, I didn't care for the play style. But I like what you can do with DS with traits ...

[Marn]

I didn't get to play the necromancer much but I was gonna run axe/dagger and scepter/focus with minions for pve, but if you can sit in Death Shroud all the time that would probably be a lot of fun too haha, I'd like to see if that's really possible to be in it pretty much fulltime.

[Jibjub]

I didn't get to play the necromancer much but I was gonna run axe/dagger and scepter/focus with minions for pve, but if you can sit in Death Shroud all the time that would probably be a lot of fun too haha, I'd like to see if that's really possible to be in it pretty much fulltime.

Even with a constant flow of mobs to suck life force from using that number 4 ability (life transfer) and even with with traits to slow life force depreciation, I don't think you could do it. The CD on life transfer is too long and depreciation too fast. Would be funny though!

Fun little note, if you read the Guildwars 2 site professional breakdown for necromancer, it states that you enter Death Shroud automatically when you die instead of going to the downed state

[Purple]

Yes, given that Axes are medium range.
Daggers were melee range (130)
Axes were medium range (600)
Sceptres were long range (900)
Staves were long range (1200)

Those are more or less the range they work at. (At least, their first ability. Obviously things like Life Drain from the daggers had a bit more range, I think 300)

I wish people would stop this. There is exactly on melee range ability on the Daggers, if you're a Dual Dagger Necromancer you'll notice that any other skill, besides the number 1 skill, is 300, 600, 900 or 1200 range.

Life Siphon has a range of 600.
Dark pact has a range of 300.
Deathly Swarm has a range of 1200.
Enfeeble has a range of 900.

The one melee range skill has no cool down, allowing you to intelligently and easily avoid, absorb and heal damage through any number of ways, safely. They're fast and hard hitting, leaving you very maneuverable.

As I've said before:

It's not entirely true that they are (daggers) melee weapons, the first skill is melee ranged. The life steal is actually short range (longer than melee, 600). The third skill is a great bit to nail a mob in place, and, again, short range (300) still longer than melee, but shorter than the Life Steal's 600. The first off-hand skill goes to 1200 (blinds, and transfers conditions to the target), and then second is at 900 (bleeding and enfeebling).

A Dagger/Dagger Necromancer has a lot of options for survival, damage and conditions. With traits you have a lot more options to choose from; like the ability to increase survival, lifesteal amounts, additional lifesteal sources, cooldown speeds, movement speeds and others. The proper traits and gear matter a lot in the long run, but it's wholly possible and not in any way weak or useless as I've seen a few suggest.

[Delias]

Offhands
Warhorn : 600
Dagger : 1200-900
Focus : 900

I'm gonna test this build, i'm not sure for the last 5 points, maybe in Curse for Withering Precision(critics cause weakeness) or in Soul Reaping for Strength of Undeath(+power) but I don't know how much power you have at high lvl...

I would personally switch the warhorn and offhand dagger around. Catching up to people using double dagger will be a colossal pain.

[Snuckerpooks]

I had fun in WvW on my staff Necro but I felt like the staple Necro mechanics like life steal and condition stacking we too limited by range and cooldowns. I might take a longer look at Necro next BWE.

Did anyone else have similar feelings?

There were many times that I felt like winning and losing in PvP was a battle of who had their CD's up. Luckily we have many great short CD's that can help us stay alive longer.

[Purple]

I would personally switch the warhorn and offhand dagger around. Catching up to people using double dagger will be a colossal pain.

I suppose it depends on what you're doing, but if you're doing things right, you have two weapon sets, on one hand, and utilities on another. Double Dagger does in fact have the ability to nail a target in place, and you can increase movement speed either with another weapon set or with utility abilities (alternatively you can gain abilities to slow and yank and stop enemies through secondary weapon sets and utilities as well). Dagger/Dagger actually works quite well on its own, even without those notable things, but with them added, it's exceptional.

[Delias]

I suppose it depends on what you're doing, but if you're doing things right

..... lol?

you have two weapon sets, on one hand, and utilities on another. Double Dagger does in fact have the ability to nail a target in place

Single dagger has that ability, as it's a mainhand ability not an offhand one. Not a justification for double dagger use AT ALL.

and you can increase movement speed either with another weapon set or with utility abilities (alternatively you can gain abilities to slow and yank and stop enemies through secondary weapon sets and utilities as well).

Weapon swapping is not instant, having to switch to another weapon set to sprint then have a 10s (or w/e it is) delay before using your dagger again is nowhere near ideal.

Dagger/Dagger actually works quite well on its own, even without those notable things, but with them added, it's exceptional.

The only thing that the offhand dagger provides is 1) a blind/condition transfer and 2) an AoE bleed/weakness.
What a warhorn provides you with is a 1)sprint/damage/cripple, and 2)A daze (which prevents enemies from using any skills for the duration
Neither of these is inherently better, but in PvP where you are trying to catch your enemies a lot of the time a sprint/cripple is obviously MUCH better for a melee necromancer than anything the offhand dagger provides.

Any The only dagger/dagger advantage you mentioned is on the mainhand, so you will get with any offhand. Weapon swapping has a CD. There is no reason to have a dagger in your mainhand if you plan to be mobile enough to catch your enemies unless you are being spammed with cripples.

[Deleted]

The only thing that the offhand dagger provides is 1) a blind/condition transfer and 2) an AoE bleed/weakness.
What a warhorn provides you with is a 1)sprint/damage/cripple, and 2)A daze (which prevents enemies from using any skills for the duration
Neither of these is inherently better, but in PvP where you are trying to catch your enemies a lot of the time a sprint/cripple is obviously MUCH better for a melee necromancer than anything the offhand dagger provides.

Any The only dagger/dagger advantage you mentioned is on the mainhand, so you will get with any offhand. Weapon swapping has a CD. There is no reason to have a dagger in your mainhand if you plan to be mobile enough to catch your enemies unless you are being spammed with cripples.

Well, being able to transfer your conditions should you find your consume conditions on CD is extremely handy in PvP, and pretty much mandatory if running a dagger condition build, which I think you linked as one of your builds(not sure on that though). When I played with it during the beta weekend, I found it extremely useful. True, you'll be slower but you can somewhat deal with that with dagger movement trait, the signet, spectral grasp. It's a choice you have to make, and I prefer to be a bit more durable (dealing with the conditions on you), than arriving somewhere 2 seconds faster.
I have no idea what happens when you get crippld or chilled when you have the swiftness boon, but being able to clear that debuff is just as handy in my opinion.

If you are running a power based dagger build, I myself also doubt the offhand dagger a bit more and might consider picking up the warhorn instead. But even then, I find it difficult to decide. I've heard from a lot of people that the debuff transfer is just that good in PvP.

[Purple]

..... lol?

Single dagger has that ability, as it's a mainhand ability not an offhand one. Not a justification for double dagger use AT ALL.

Weapon swapping is not instant, having to switch to another weapon set to sprint then have a 10s (or w/e it is) delay before using your dagger again is nowhere near ideal.

The only thing that the offhand dagger provides is 1) a blind/condition transfer and 2) an AoE bleed/weakness.
What a warhorn provides you with is a 1)sprint/damage/cripple, and 2)A daze (which prevents enemies from using any skills for the duration
Neither of these is inherently better, but in PvP where you are trying to catch your enemies a lot of the time a sprint/cripple is obviously MUCH better for a melee necromancer than anything the offhand dagger provides.

Any The only dagger/dagger advantage you mentioned is on the mainhand, so you will get with any offhand. Weapon swapping has a CD. There is no reason to have a dagger in your mainhand if you plan to be mobile enough to catch your enemies unless you are being spammed with cripples.

You're just not listening, and you're obsessing over catching enemies when utility, another weapon set, and your mainhand can solve that issue. The offhand dagger, as you noted, has two great skills for up close combat, very powerful skills once you realize how good a blind and a condition transfer are. Even better when you realize how good weakness is for getting in the thick of it with someone, on the off-chance you fail to absorb or reflect or outright avoid damage.

Utilities like spectral grasp are a much better decision that running after an opponent, especially when you consider all the things they could potentially be running you into. And if you need to move faster, you can get a passive signet to up your speed at a base, all the time. Your best bet isn't to put a horn off-hand into your dagger build, but to combine the Horn and Axe as one set and the Dagger and Dagger as another - for a particular playstyle.

However, I'd still maintain I found Staff and Dagger/Dagger to be the most effective of all the builds I tried, with a concentration on Soulreaping and Deathshroud.

[Deleted]

It's not on the wiki, haven't checked ingame this weekend but I recall them saying dagger is the real melee weapon for necromancers. So I don't think they'd implement such a trait.

I just checked and it was on the first trait tool, in the guro forums. Probably changed from then, but thats where i remember it from.

It's a build that focuses on minions, MM= minion master. Basically all utility skill slots are filled with minions.

Thanks

[Delias]

You're just not listening, and you're obsessing over catching enemies when utility, another weapon set, and your mainhand can solve that issue. The offhand dagger, as you noted, has two great skills for up close combat, very powerful skills once you realize how good a blind and a condition transfer are. Even better when you realize how good weakness is for getting in the thick of it with someone, on the off-chance you fail to absorb or reflect or outright avoid damage.

I didn't say the offhand dagger was not good, I said it does not compliment the mainhand dagger as well as the warhorn. The offhand dagger has it's advantages, but it is not as good of a weapon to use with a dagger.

Utilities like spectral grasp are a much better decision that running after an opponent, especially when you consider all the things they could potentially be running you into. And if you need to move faster, you can get a passive signet to up your speed at a base, all the time.

Here's the crazy part, you can do that AND use a warhorn. Crazy, isn't it? That's like asking a warrior "Why would you ever use heroic leap? I mean, you already have sprint". Sure he does, but having heroic leap AND sprint is better than having just sprint.

Your best bet isn't to put a horn off-hand into your dagger build, but to combine the Horn and Axe as one set and the Dagger and Dagger as another - for a particular playstyle.

*waits for your reasoning, since so far you've basically said 'you're wrong I'm right shut up'*
The warhorn has a melee range cripple and a sprint. If you are not in melee range of the target, it does not cripple or do damage. Are you seriously saying that does not compliment the dagger more than a ranged mainhand? Really? Melee weapons do more damage than other weapons. If you're going to be in melee range anyways, you should be using a melee weapon. If weapon swapping had no CD, I would understand having a warhorn in your axe set, since you would be able to switch instantly to your other set, sprint, and switch back. However, it is not.

However, I'd still maintain I found Staff and Dagger/Dagger to be the most effective of all the builds I tried, with a concentration on Soulreaping and Deathshroud.

And I'd still maintain that Dagger/warhorn is a better combination for any situation that you have to get close to an enemy than dagger/dagger. I am not saying that other weapons are not effective, I'm saying that any time you need to consistently be in melee range, the warhorn is significantly better than the dagger for an offhand.

[Lucky_]

Something that made me wonder in this thread: many dagger fans keep talking about "popping DS often". Why would you want to do that for any reason but situational utility of #2 and #3 and survival? DS is a clear cut DPS loss loss for all specs.

[Delias]

Something that made me wonder in this thread: many dagger fans keep talking about "popping DS often". Why would you want to do that for any reason but situational utility of #2 and #3 and survival? DS is a clear cut DPS loss loss for all specs.

Wouldn't know.
I only pop DS when I'm being hit, since it uses a different health bar so any damage taken by it is damage not taken by you.