Mesmer Discussion Thread

[DrakeWurrum]

The more we discuss this, the more it sounds to me like you just want a completely different class...

Completely different class? No.

I'm just not happy with the method they implemented this class concept for specific mechanics. This class can still be a tricksy confusing Mesmer and still completely follow the design of the class and still be unique among all the other classes with exactly what I've suggested.

[Nikijih]

Completely different class? No.

I'm just not happy with the method they implemented this class concept for specific mechanics. This class can still be a tricksy confusing Mesmer and still completely follow the design of the class and still be unique among all the other classes with exactly what I've suggested.

Would it keep the same flavor? Yes.
Would it be the same class? No.

You are proposing we turn a Illusion-centric class with Shatter mechanics into a Shatter-centric class with illusion mechanics. Not the same *at all*.

EDIT: to clarify,

Right now, skillsets all revolve around the summoning of multiple temporary illusions as cannon fodder, multiplying the ways you can summon them and making the entire class illusion-centric. You dont just stealth: you make a decoy. You dont just charge: you create a clone then switch place with him. Shatters CAN be central to your build... or they can be secondary utility.

With your suggestion we would have a generic class that can summon 3 permanent illusions, and the skillset would be designed around blowing those up for different effects.

If you cannot understand how those are 2 very different classes, you should not be discussing game mechanics...

[DrakeWurrum]

Admittedly, I'm no game developer - and online games are never balanced or designed by exactly ONE person, but by several people giving their input. I'm still convinced that something similar to the following would prove to be more fun:

The first and most obvious thing is that the Mesmer-specific stat now reduces the CDs of clone-generating skills. (may as well allow it to affect utility skills? Hell if I know, I'm no master of balancing)

• Staff's Phase Retreat - swapped with Cry of Frustration. Obviously, adjust the CDs of both accordingly for the sake of balance - I think Phase Retreat would be fine at either 10 or 15 seconds. Cry of Frustration would need to be reduced to 20 seconds or so (remember +30 in Illusions currently does this already)
• Sword's Illusionary Leap - swap it with Mind Wrack. Mind Wrack could be fine at 12 seconds - Illusionary Leap could be reduced to, say, 8 seconds, as I'd expect it to be the primary clone-generating skill. On top of that, Swap should now be the F4 button. You Swap with a random clone, and cause enemies near your initial position to be Immobilize for a few seconds. I'd say 30 second CD. Distortion is addressed below.
  Also to consider: Riposte should maybe do something else? See below for why. I'm thinking it should Daze the foe if you're attacked, but Cripple or Immob if you end it early.
• Scepter - Chain attack obviously no longer generates clones. In some ways this hurts it, but that depends on how well or poorly the F1-F4 keys are balanced numerically. It should properly apply 2 stacks of Confusion instead (and thus, in a way, this change also benefits it). And now, Illusionary Counter and Diversion should be swapped (except that, obviously, Illusionary Counter is F3, not F4). Illusionary Counter should perhaps be made to block all attacks for the duration, and then create an illusion regardless of whether or not you're attacked. (it's either that, or keep it the same, imo) CDs adjusted accordingly.
• Greatsword - Now, this is the only tricky one to change. Mirror Blade is great on it's own even without the clone generation - and you might want to use it WITHOUT shattering as well, so attaching the shatter to it is likely a bad idea. What if this is the ONLY weapon that doesn't have a shatter? The only alternative I can see to this would be to attach the shatter to Mind Stab, causing the illusions to, instead of shattering on a TARGET, to shatter specifically on where you cast the Mind Stab - the shattering illusions could cause Cripple, while the Mind Stab itself could continue to cause Vulnerability. They'd obviously need to, say, instantly teleport to the targeted area, or else rapidly move there, or else you'd never be able to hit with those shatters.

---------- Post added 2012-08-30 at 02:05 PM ----------

Would it keep the same flavor? Yes.
Would it be the same class? No.

You are proposing we turn a Illusion-centric class with Shatter mechanics into a Shatter-centric class with illusion mechanics. Not the same *at all*.

Define what you mean by "same class" exactly? At what point do you separate the flavor and aesthetics and strategies of a profession from the profession?

I think the Mesmer is currently Illusion-centric, and that the profession mechanic that you think they ARE centered around is sorely under-used and under-powered because their Illusion generation is lacking.

I personally feel changing the Mesmer profession in such a way would dramatically improve it. How can you have Shatters be the central profession mechanic when it relies entirely on your ability to generate illusions, primarily clones?

Warrior Burst skill is dependent in a similar fashion, except every weapon skill, even the ones that don't deal damage, can generate adrenaline.

Hell, even if you're right with what you're saying, in creating a "different class" I think the different class I'm representing would be better and more liked by more people, while still retaining all the flavors and aesthetics and tactics associated.

[Nikijih]

Admittedly, I'm no game developer - and online games are never balanced or designed by exactly ONE person, but by several people giving their input. I'm still convinced that something similar to the following would prove to be more fun:

The first and most obvious thing is that the Mesmer-specific stat now reduces the CDs of clone-generating skills. (may as well allow it to affect utility skills? Hell if I know, I'm no master of balancing)

Staff's Phase Retreat - swapped with Cry of Frustration. Obviously, adjust the CDs of both accordingly for the sake of balance - I think Phase Retreat would be fine at either 10 or 15 seconds. Cry of Frustration would need to be reduced to 20 seconds or so (remember +30 in Illusions currently does this already)
Sword's Illusionary Leap - swap it with Mind Wrack. Mind Wrack could be fine at 12 seconds - Illusionary Leap could be reduced to, say, 8 seconds, as I'd expect it to be the primary clone-generating skill. On top of that, Swap should now be the F4 button. You Swap with a random clone, and cause enemies near your initial position to be Immobilize for a few seconds. I'd say 30 second CD. Distortion is addressed below.
Also to consider: Riposte should maybe do something else? See below for why. I'm thinking it should Daze the foe if you're attacked, but Cripple or Immob if you end it early.
Scepter - Chain attack obviously no longer generates clones. In some ways this hurts it, but that depends on how well or poorly the F1-F4 keys are balanced numerically. It should properly apply 2 stacks of Confusion instead (and thus, in a way, this change also benefits it). And now, Illusionary Counter and Diversion should be swapped (except that, obviously, Illusionary Counter is F3, not F4). Illusionary Counter should perhaps be made to block all attacks for the duration, and then create an illusion regardless of whether or not you're attacked. (it's either that, or keep it the same, imo) CDs adjusted accordingly.
Greatsword - Now, this is the only tricky one to change. Mirror Blade is great on it's own even without the clone generation - and you might want to use it WITHOUT shattering as well, so attaching the shatter to it is likely a bad idea. What if this is the ONLY weapon that doesn't have a shatter? The only alternative I can see to this would be to attach the shatter to Mind Stab, causing the illusions to, instead of shattering on a TARGET, to shatter specifically on where you cast the Mind Stab - the shattering illusions could cause Cripple, while the Mind Stab itself could continue to cause Vulnerability. They'd obviously need to, say, instantly teleport to the targeted area, or else rapidly move there, or else you'd never be able to hit with those shatters.

This is a great exemple of COMPLETELY CHANGING THE CLASS. Now you cannot use Mind Wrack unless you use a sword? You only have Cry of Frustration if you use a staff? Shatters goes from being a choice to being dependant on your weapon choice.

Define what you mean by "same class" exactly? At what point do you separate the flavor and aesthetics and strategies of a profession from the profession?

I think the Mesmer is currently Illusion-centric, and that the profession mechanic that you think they ARE centered around is sorely under-used and under-powered because their Illusion generation is lacking.

If you find illusion generation to be lacking, that is a case of you needing to learn to play, because that is FAR from being a problem. Without actively taking any generating skill like Mirror Clones I still end up not using some because i dont wanna pop my previous ones just yet. Between your weapons thats 2 clones and 2 phantasms minimum on low CDs, add in the traits (clone on dodge for exemple) and the utility skills (decoy, mirror, etc etc), and there is no such issue.

As for the rest of your post, let me quote myself:

Right now, skillsets all revolve around the summoning of multiple temporary illusions as cannon fodder, multiplying the ways you can summon them and making the entire class illusion-centric. You dont just stealth: you make a decoy. You dont just charge: you create a clone then switch place with him. Shatters CAN be central to your build... or they can be secondary utility.

With your suggestion we would have a generic class that can summon 3 permanent illusions, and the skillset would be designed around blowing those up for different effects.

[DrakeWurrum]

This is a great exemple of COMPLETELY CHANGING THE CLASS. Now you cannot use Mind Wrack unless you use a sword? You only have Cry of Frustration if you use a staff? Shatters goes from being a choice to being dependant on your weapon choice.

Fine then. So it changes the class. Now point me to where this is necessarily a bad thing. Now point me to where what I'm suggesting would be bad for the class (not my specific changes, but the idea overall).

Illusions can serve multiple purposes that vary as much as builds do. They can be repurposed to fit into any playstyle.
Shatters can only each be used one way, and are limited specifically, to begin with, by having active illusions. If I use Cry of Frustration, I cannot use Mind Wrack, Distortion, or Diversion without first summoning at least one Illusion. This trade-off decision-making is not necessarily bad, but it also means you don't need to have more than one Shatter available at a time. (I can still weapon swap to another weapon, and suddenly NOW, the way I combine my weapon sets, allows me to play into more tactics in what Shatters I have at my disposal, while always being a master of illusions)

Mind Wrack can only be used in one way, and exactly one way: Raw damage. It can crit, so maybe that's two to you, but either way it's raw burst damage. It cannot be beneficial to condition builds (relative to Cry of Frustration), it cannot be beneficial to builds that favor keeping illusions active, and it cannot be beneficial to builds that focus heavily on survival, and it cannot be used to control the enemy.
Cry of Frustration can only specifically be used for condition damage. It cannot be used for burst damage that's based on Power or Precision/Prowess, but only on Malice/Expertise. It can sort of be used to control the enemy, but only in the sense that conditions cause enemies to consider condition removal to begin with.
Distortion cannot be used offensively in any fashion. It can only protect against damage temporarily.
Diversion can only be used to control the enemy. It does not directly benefit a condition-damage build, and does not directly benefit a raw-damage build, any more than any other form of control does.

You see where I'm going with this?

Illusions offer variety and can fit into any build. Shatters cannot. (Frankly, I'm shocked that Shatters weren't also a type of utility skill)

[Aoroc]

Illusions work fine for the Scepter and Sword because you can generate illusions very rapidly. This is NOT the case with Staff or Greatsword.

Illusions being generated rapidly by specific weapons masks the real issue here. If EVERY weapon generated illusions so rapidly and easily, this would be much less of an issue, and I probably wouldn't be complaining at all.

And the only reason I really can't complain about being unable to keep them alive is the simple fact that they all die the moment my target does anyways. I still personally would prefer it if they were actual permanent pets. Can I help it if I love the idea of running around with four of myself?


At this point, I'm convinced they got Illusions and Shatters backwards. The profession mechanic buttons should be the buttons that generate illusions, and the weapon skills should be the buttons that shatter.

Everytime I post here I seem to get skipped/ignored completely, but I'll give you my input anyways. I was having the same issue you were, illusions not staying alive or the other extreme, them never ever targeting my illusions at all and me having to run for my life every single pull (the higher the level, the more mobs pull each pack, around 40s it's hard not to fight 2-5 mobs each time). What I started using is Scepter/Focus and Staff for questing, the spamming of the Scepter will help tank mobs while you have time to get your Phantasms out which usually live due to the fact that the mob(s) are attacking your scepter basic clones. This weapon has a good trade off, you can put down a Warden and Temporal Curtain, block if you need to, Confusing Images for dmg ,and get 1 or 2 scepter clones out, switch to the staff, chaos storm/armor and get a Warlock out/WoC clone with Phase retreat, kite around some and go back to the scepter and not too long after the scepter/focus CDs are coming back, go with those, trade back and the Staff ones are close to being usable again. It's something I personally have gotten a hang of and I almost always have 3 illusions up and things rarely touch me now, especially elites or whatever they're called in this game. I run Decoy/Blink/Null Field with Moa as my elite, and all my traits are in Chaos and Inspiration for Phantasm health and Clones giving conditions when they die.

Just a suggestion to try. Things do take awhile to die compared to say a Guardian, but at least you're not running for your life every pull and unless you're in a mad rush to level, it's keeping it fun and doable for me.

[DrakeWurrum]

I've been making use of Sword/Sword and Scepter/Torch, and I can make things work, I just feel like that the mechanics involved with illusions and shatters are painfully clunky in their current design, and need to be overhauled.

I can make Staff and Greatsword work too, the thing is that on both weapons my illusions are something I don't bother to mess with unless I slot illusion-generating utilities, and then suddenly I have no use for my shatters at ALL. And I find it NOT fun to be unable to make use of a primary profession mechanic just because of my weapon choice.

It feels very odd, to me, when using Staff or Greatsword, to have extremely minimal use for both illusions and shatters. I shouldn't have to fully rely on traits and utility skills, when using those weapons, to make use of what I am being told is our core mechanic: shatters.

[deathtakes]

http://gw2skills.net/editor/en/?fgAQ...JKyWkrIZRjCmFA

(Now I'm not sure if there is a limit on how many illusions you can have up at once, but I think I remember hearing 3 of each max and the tool tip for mind wrack says 3x. I also don't know if illusions stacks, if the damage mind wrack does is even worth it, or how fast everything works so I don't know if I need to spec to lower the mind wrack cool down. So I don't know if this will even work the way I want but here it goes.)

This is a 'Mind Wrack' build. I was kinda going for a rifle engineer using a bomb pack feel, what it lacks in kiting ability it makes up for in defensive abilities and condition damage. Basically what I want to do is make a ton of illusions and use mind wrack as the main source of damage, whether or not any of that is possible I have no idea.

Using a Scepter and Sword off hand gives 4 of the 5 weapon skills generate a illusion. The skills also have 2 ranged attacks, 2 blocks, and a illusion generator. My heal gives me more health per active illusion which I thought would fit with what I'm trying to do. I then picked up 3 utility skills that create illusions yet also help me escape/survive and finally the stealth elite skill.

For traits I went 10/20/0/20/20. I picked up talents that make mind wrack cause confusion and anything that increased mind wrack's damage, created an illusion or helped me defensively.

For gems I used celestial because it gives a little bit of everything to help with defense/offense.

I don't have GW 2 which is why I'm so ignorant about how the class plays but any feedback on whether or not this will work would be awesome. Thanks!

[Nikijih]

it also means you don't need to have more than one Shatter available at a time.

I wont requote your entire post because, once again, you are simply wanting a DIFFERENT class. Nothing bad with that, but for people who enjoy the current Mesmer gameplay, we are not interested in playing a different class.

That being said, this part I quoted shows, to me, your problem: you do not understand the class and how to play it. We have a ton of illusion-generating skills. You can pop a 3 illusions Mind-Wrack, Decoy/Leap and use a different shatter for a quick daze, or pop Mirror Clone + Distortion for a few second of invincibility, etc. The current system lets you adjust your gameplay on the fly to the circumstances.

Meanwhile the changes you propose would lock you into using only one or two shatters max, while severely limiting your capacity to summon illusion. It would turn a core mechanic into a cheap gimmick you can use once or twice per fight. Not to mention that making illusions perma-pet would be completely prohibitive to shatter skills, making them counter-productive to a certain extend while making the class feel a lot more like a necro.

Personally the only thing I would change right now other then number tweaking is to make the illusions and phantasms independant of the original target, so they dont vanish when he dies and target whatever you damaged last.

[DrakeWurrum]

but for people who enjoy the current Mesmer gameplay, we are not interested in playing a different class.

I find it amusing that you seem to think you wouldn't enjoy this Mesmer gameplay just as much, if not more. O_o


I do understand this class. I do understand how to play it. I just find it's design incredibly inconsistent in regards to how illusions and shatters are organized, and I see that as a bad thing. I don't like how they chose to handle the illusions concept, in general. I think they could have designed it better.

---------- Post added 2012-08-30 at 04:08 PM ----------

It would turn a core mechanic into a cheap gimmick you can use once or twice per fight.

That's what it is right now.

[Ticktox]

Lots of debate on using shatters going on, and not using them? Seems weird, I use them all the time. Most of them too, daze not so much but the rest yes depending on the situation. If you're at your 3 max and your about to get another one. Blow them up, based on the situation. They don't do enough damage alone to only be swapping one out for a new one. Pistol one may be debatable on that one, however the cooldown is short so I still think it's best to just get rid of it with mind wrack, and if thats on cooldown just use frustration. And depending on your illusion out, if you have some melee and some casting at range, using diversion can be good too. And of course if you're trying to protect yourself maybe running cause you're low, distortion is great.

I think what I've had to learn is, don't hang on to them like pets you want to keep alive. If you're about to make a 4th, get rid of them. The utility or damage they'll bring from shattering is better than the long cooldown of their ability, or little to no damage.

[DrakeWurrum]

Problem is, on certain weapons, they never get to the 3-illusion max, simply because illusions get demolished by anything that sneezes at them. Only Scepter can really keep up, though Sword can somewhat manage it since, being in melee, you typically get attacked instead.

I don't look forward to doing large boss events where illusions just get blown up because of random AoE that you can't do anything about except to dodge it yourself, while your illusions disappear.

[Kelesti]

I find it amusing that you seem to think you wouldn't enjoy this Mesmer gameplay just as much, if not more. O_o

I find it amusing that you're implying I don't enjoy it enough as it is. Why would you need to gut the current mechanics

That's what it is right now.

Uhh, no?

---------- Post added 2012-08-30 at 04:17 PM ----------

Problem is, on certain weapons, they never get to the 3-illusion max, simply because illusions get demolished by anything that sneezes at them. Only Scepter can really keep up, though Sword can somewhat manage it since, being in melee, you typically get attacked instead.

It's a good thing that diversion and Distortion don't need 3 illusions to be effective, and Scepter's the only one that wants Cry of Frustration anyways. Mind Wrack is the only one you're weighing here, and is it worth killing off your phantasms for it, on fights like these? Melee or not.

[Ticktox]

I do fine with 2 handed sword and sword/focus, usually get my illusion max pretty fast after weapon swaps. And like Kelesti said, you don't always need max to have an effective shatter. So far the only issue I've had with mesmer is when things are dying too fast in a zerg DE or something. No time to get any illusions out to do much of anything. And if I do, usually not enough time to even shatter before it dies. Other than that though, I love the mechanics, and its all working out great for me.

[DrakeWurrum]

It's a good thing that diversion and Distortion don't need 3 illusions to be effective, and Scepter's the only one that wants Cry of Frustration anyways. Mind Wrack is the only one you're weighing here, and is it worth killing off your phantasms for it, on fights like these? Melee or not.

So if that's the case, why is everybody so upset that shatters would be specific to specific weapons, especially considering that the changes I suggested (as unbalanced as they may or may not be) included defensive methods that would be available across all weapons, and then the offensive implications of what I suggested would not be specific to any one weapon (the way it currently is) simply by virtue of the fact that all weapons, builds, and playstyles always have some use for illusions, but not always so for shatters?

If Cry of Frustration is only wanted by Scepter (wouldn't need it if the #1 attack applied Confusion on the third hit), and if Mind Wrack feels so weak in your opinion, if not useless, then what you're looking at is Diversion and Distortion, then your concern is primarily in your ability to control and prevent incoming damage. Something I most certainly attempted to address, and would not be impossible at all with the overall concept.
If you could swap with random clones, could block at least one attack, if not several for several seconds (hey wait a minute!), and could also use the Staff #2 from any weapon, you're actually gaining defenses, not losing - and the distinction is, now you can also generate illusions with your means of self-defense, rather than having to hope your illusions are active when you need them.

Yes. Hope. Because they die so ridiculously easy that you can't count on them to be active.

I merely want the profession mechanics to not be so weapon and playstyle specific.

---------- Post added 2012-08-30 at 05:29 PM ----------

I find it amusing that you're implying I don't enjoy it enough as it is. Why would you need to gut the current mechanics

I'm not implying it. I'm implying you could like it the other way better, however, and that the mechanics would have better synergy and make more sense from a design perspective.

[Ticktox]

If you're hoping, you're doing it wrong. Illusions are supposed to be weak, if they're getting killed, then obviously, you should've shattered beforehand. And if they're dying way fast, that's still a hit that you're not taking for a simple illusion that is easy to get out and I've not had an issue with any weapon setup keeping them out. With scepter I actually get a little overwhelmed and usually end up with all my shatters on CD.

[DrakeWurrum]

if they're getting killed, then obviously, you should've shattered beforehand

You don't often get the chance to shatter them, with how fast they die, and the time it takes to realize they're being targeted at all.

As I already said, with Scepter, illusion generation is fine. With Sword it even works out.
But not so with Greatsword or Staff, both of which can greatly benefit from either illusions or shatters, with the right build, but have extremely slow illusion generation.

[Ticktox]

Anyway, arguement aside. Anyone find Feedback incredibly fun in WvW? lol And am I crazy or do we not only reflect their ranged attacks back, but I swear I always get a ton of combo effects of confusion from this. And I can't tell if it's from people shooting through the dome, or if the reflect itself is also causing a combo effect on themselves. Anyone know if it creates a combo in itself if the ability reflected is a combo finisher?

[panterarules]

Well i don't use shatter at all really in PvP. Saying that, it's more of a build thing. One thing i don't like about the class is the phantasm creation on the sceptre auto attack. I'd rather they integrate them into a cooldown spell as that spell hampers non-shatter builds but would also give shatter builds a more reliable way to create illusions (considering the damage is very poor compared to every other classes burst abilities).

[-aiko-]

Dear mesmers,

I hate you for being so illusive and mean with your illusions. I will stab you in the back.

Love,

Thief

More on topic, I've been wondering how many illusions you are able to have up at once? I was trying to fight 2 mesmers and I swear there were like 8 of them. O_O