why do we feel different about the same outcomes?

[Kasierith]

how would we "discover" it? how did we "discover" it in humans?

The same way that we eventually found out how tornadoes work. Examining them. If one person has emotions, and thinks about doing a violent thing over something, and then sees another person doing the exact same violent thing, than that person can assume that that person did it because of emotions. Also, humans can communicate. Tornadoes cannot, as far as we have been able to determine

[crica]

In your general situation where someone punches someone else in the face, it is logical to assume that the puncher is not doing this to help that person, he is doing it to hurt him/her.

tornadoes are not causing pain to help someone either, are they?

[Imnick]

Tornadoes are not accountable for their actions and cannot be stopped
Tornadoes do not do things for reasons, they just do them, so there is no point getting upset about it because it was unavoidable

Men, as sapient thinking beings that can control themselves and the consequences of what they do, are very accountable for what they decide to use their gift of muscle control for
Men do things because they think it will cause other things, and as their behaviours can and should be influenced by society and others then it is perfectly sensible to treat them differently from tornadoes

[Deleted]

tornadoes are not causing pain to help someone either, are they?

No. I've decided that you must be trolling. You simply must.

[crica]

you're really asking if tornados are conscious or not, to which I can emphatically respond NO they're not.

yes i guess i am - i dont see how we can know that for a fact i suppose

[MestHoop]

tornadoes are not causing pain to help someone either, are they?

Tornadoes don't cause pain for ANY reason. It's been explained in this thread several times already why.

yes i guess i am - i dont see how we can know that for a fact i suppose

Because, like I said previously, a tornado is not a thing, it is merely a combination of natural occurrences that we humans have given a name to.

[StationaryHawk]

but how does*studying*a person allow you to "know for a fact" they enjoy or not enjoy something? *

Because they can tell us with their voice. We can see it in their brain patterns. Although they don't have to enjoy it for it to be intentional.

As it happens, tornadoes lack a voice or brain patterns. They're wind.

Unless the wind counts as a voice. Then maybe we can try talking to it.

[Imnick]

The reaction towards a person being injured by a tornado is shock and sympathy as a terrible thing has happened to them

The reaction towards a person being injured by another person is shock and sympathy as a terrible thing has happened to them AND an additional amount of shock and anger that another person (capable of making their own choices about what to do) did this to them

A man chooses, a tornado does not

[Stede]

I'm sorry, did you have a point? One is avoidable and deliberate. The other isn't.

[crica]

Men do things because they think it will cause other things

i dont - i do things because i have to in order to survive - if i dont go to the bathroom, i may die - if i dont eat and drink, i may die - etc...so how do i know anyone else (or anything else such as tornadoes) does things for any other reason?

[StationaryHawk]

i dont - i do things because i have to in order to survive - if i dont go to the bathroom, i may die - if i dont eat and drink, i may die - etc...so how do i know anyone else (or anything else such as tornadoes) does things for any other reason?

You eat, drink, and go to the bathroom because you know it will cause you to continue living.

[Imnick]

i dont - i do things because i have to in order to survive - if i dont go to the bathroom, i may die - if i dont eat and drink, i may die - etc

Yes, that is you doing things because you think it will cause other things.
In this case, the other things being the avoidance of your death.

...so how do i know anyone else (or anything else such as tornadoes) does things for any other reason?

We know tornadoes do not do things for this reason because they are not alive and also therefore incapable of dying.
Tornadoes are wind currents, they do not require food or nourishment to survive that they could gain by "attacking" a person and cannot even move by themselves, as they are created and moved around by the weather and temperature.

Unless you believe that the very air itself is alive and thinking (in which case you are*committing*atrocities simply by breathing), and also that the forces of heat are sapient creatures (they are not) you should not also believe that tornadoes are responsible for their own actions or even capable of choosing those actions at all

[Reeve]

yes i guess i am - i dont see how we can know that for a fact i suppose

Consciousness as it is defined by humans (and let's face it, we only communicate by the means of how we've defined things) is a relationship between the mind and the world. It is awareness, and a sense of self. These are things that can only exist in the presence of a mind. A tornado has no mind, no synapses, no thoughts. Therefore it cannot be conscious.

Perhaps you would like to expand on your notion that it's possible that tornados might be conscious so that we can better understand your position?

[MestHoop]

i dont - i do things because i have to in order to survive - if i dont go to the bathroom, i may die - if i dont eat and drink, i may die - etc...so how do i know anyone else (or anything else such as tornadoes) does things for any other reason?

Simple, you still do what Imnick described: You do things because you think it will cause you not to die.
You go to the bathroom not only not to die, but also to relief yourself of the urge. This urge was made by digesting food and drinks, which you ate because your body requires sustenance to work (EG "not die") so your body creates what we call hunger, and you wish to relief yourself of this as well. Everything has cause and effect, it isn't as simple as you describe it in that post.

Also, tornadoes don't do things for reasons, see my previous post as to why T_T

[crica]

You eat, drink, and go to the bathroom because you know it will cause you to continue living.

i don't know if it does - i just trust what other people tell me because i have not stopped living when i do what they tell me (like eat and drink and go to the bathroom) - i have not tried to stop eating and drinking and peeing to see for myself if it is true hehe

[Affixiation]

What I get out of this thread is that we need to build a weather controlling device to stop tornadoes from abusing their human wives.

[StationaryHawk]

i don't know if it does - i just trust what other people tell me because i have not stopped living when i do what they tell me (like eat and drink and go to the bathroom) - i have not tried to stop eating and drinking and peeing to see for myself if it is true hehe

If you really don't have the education to know that eating and drinking causes you to continue living, then you really don't have the education to be making any form of theory about the possibility of tornadoes having a conscience.

This is a losing battle here. Either you're actually not understanding a thing any of us are saying, or you're intentionally ignoring all the facts in order to get people to pointlessly attempt to explain it to you.

[crica]

Perhaps you would like to expand on your notion that it's possible that tornados might be conscious so that we can better understand your position?

well...im not sure how to put it...but you saying consciousness is only possible with a mind (brain?)...how do we know that? *because only things with a mind (brain?) do what we do?...is that how we know?...like what do we (who have brains) do that things that have no brains do not do?

---------- Post added 2012-03-07 at 10:12 AM ----------

If you really don't have the education to know that eating and drinking causes you to continue living

yes im educated - i went to school and read all of the things you did (things other people tell us are true) - at least in high school in america

---------- Post added 2012-03-07 at 10:17 AM ----------

What I get out of this thread is that we need to build a weather controlling device

we try to control people since people can cause people pain...i am actually surprised that people do not try to control weather since weather can cause people pain

[StationaryHawk]

yes im educated - i went to school and read all of the things you did (things other people tell us are true) - at least in high school in america

It's not like we don't have empirical evidence to support any of it or anything. Your point that we only know what other people tell us are true might work for some topics (such as history), but not topics which we can observe as being true for ourselves.

Regardless, that's off-topic. Tornadoes can be assumed to not have consciences. We've more evidence pointing towards that conclusion than the absolute lack of evidence pointing towards yours.

we try to control people since people can cause people pain...i am actually surprised that people do not try to control weather since weather can cause people pain

Chances are, we do attempt to control weather. We simply haven't figured out how.

[Imnick]

Tornadoes are fairly predictable and will always do the same thing with no regard to what is around them
We know what makes them, we know what forces make them move around and they do not respond to external stimulus
This means that they are not making any concious decisions, they are natural forces

Just like gravity does not make an apple drop from a tree because it wants to, tornadoes don't do what they do because they want to
Even describing a tornado as a "they" is probably inaccurate as it is a thing, not a being

I don't see why you trust other people to tell you that eating food is good for you but not to tell you that tornadoes do not have ulterior motives