[Megathread] DotA 2

[Lysah]

Invoker is still fine, imo, just not broken anymore. The euls combo might not be so great but you can still do orchid/wex build or forge spirits (probably the way to play now). He still has crazy utility and insane right click.

[Crackleslap]

Yeah euls is just going to counter the shit out of invoker now. At least Exort.

[Deleted]

The fix was a long time coming, and anyone that thinks it kills Combo Invoker is daft. Eul's is a great item on Invoker that fixes almost all of his issues (as Exort, anyway) for less than 3k gold, and you'll still be able to 1-shot combo almost any support and any core without BKB for a good 30-40 minutes of the game.

The changes were needed and particularly being able to BKB out of Deafening was strictly necessary change that should have happened ages ago, but it doesn't change the power of the hero much bar extremely late-game situations where he's already obnoxiously strong.

It does change the order of some combos, though - you probably want to Tornado -> Meteor -> Deafening rather than Tornado -> Deafening -> Meteor, and you can't really initiate with Deafening in the late-game to set up combos, either.

[Lysah]

There are tons of ways to get out of the Euls combo now. Aside from quite simply walking to the side, a good 50%+ of the heroes in the game have some movement ability they can use to get out of the meteor before it does much damage. For reference, I watched a euls invoker do all of 200 damage to an antimage with his combo earlier today, nice.

[Deleted]

There are tons of ways to get out of the Euls combo now. Aside from quite simply walking to the side, a good 50%+ of the heroes in the game have some movement ability they can use to get out of the meteor before it does much damage. For reference, I watched a euls invoker do all of 200 damage to an antimage with his combo earlier today, nice.

You don't use Deafening in the Eul's combo any more. The correct combo is Sunstrike -> Meteor -> Cold Snap, and realistically there are still very few counters to this combo. You'll still die before your team can react if you run around on your own as a support or underfarmed offlaner when the Invoker is missing - even some cores will still die until 35-40 minutes.

The really significant change is the ability to self-Eul's or Orchid the Invoker player before he casts the third element in the combo (which can actually be either Ice Wall or Cold Snap, although Cold Snap is vastly preferable), but this still means that you have to have an item that costs 2.5k or more gold. It's a change meant to prevent Invoker from just 1-shotting equal net worth cores with impunity, not a change meant to entirely neuter his ability to pick off heroes with one of the many viable Eul's-facilitated combos.

[Lysah]

I think it's a change largely built around the inability to use BKB to stop Invoker more than anything. The end result is still the same, I don't expect euls Invoker to stick around much, personally. I will probably go 4/0/4 from now on, myself.

[Deleted]

I think it's a change largely built around the inability to use BKB to stop Invoker more than anything. The end result is still the same, I don't expect euls Invoker to stick around much, personally. I will probably go 4/0/4 from now on, myself.

4/0/4 is completely pointless unless you're safelane and a support is leeching a significant amount of XP. Alacrity is still extremely strong from level 2 Exort onwards - there's no way you shouldn't be 3/1/4 at lvl 8 and delay double Forge until lvl 9. You'll still have double Forge pre-10 unless your lane is a complete fucking disaster, in which case the exact timing of your double Forge doesn't matter much in the first place.

I also still must insist that Eul's is an invaluable item on Invoker even if it doesn't strictly facilitate the 1-shot combo. If you're not going to play QW, the hero desperately needs movespeed and some way of deterring the enemy from simply focusing him. Eul's does all this on top of dispelling pesky silences et al and fixing mana regen issues for less than 3k gold.

[Drunkenvalley]

4/0/4 build not found?

[StrawberryZebra]

I think it's a change largely built around the inability to use BKB to stop Invoker more than anything. The end result is still the same, I don't expect euls Invoker to stick around much, personally. I will probably go 4/0/4 from now on, myself.

Being able to get out of a Deafening Blast is a huge blow to Invokers, BKBing out of it puts him in a really bad spot, especially if he had to get close to Blast. But I can't see Eul's builds being dead in the water because of it, a Eul's into a Sunstrike + Meteor + Cold Snap + Urn combo is very powerful. I imagine Eul's Invoker will stick around in some form or another, just like Eul's Lina. The active itself is just too good at allowing them to land delayed abilities at the start of a combo and comes bundled with lots of Int, Mana Regen and move speed too.

It might fall out of favour for one of Invokers other play styles of course, but Eul's itself was practically designed for him and will keep being useful for the forseeable future.

[Lysah]

4/0/4 is completely pointless unless you're safelane and a support is leeching a significant amount of XP. Alacrity is still extremely strong from level 2 Exort onwards - there's no way you shouldn't be 3/1/4 at lvl 8 and delay double Forge until lvl 9. You'll still have double Forge pre-10 unless your lane is a complete fucking disaster, in which case the exact timing of your double Forge doesn't matter much in the first place.

I also still must insist that Eul's is an invaluable item on Invoker even if it doesn't strictly facilitate the 1-shot combo. If you're not going to play QW, the hero desperately needs movespeed and some way of deterring the enemy from simply focusing him. Eul's does all this on top of dispelling pesky silences et al and fixing mana regen issues for less than 3k gold.

Obviously euls will have situational use on him as a defensive item, much like it is good on Storm Spirit or QOP for the same reason. I'm not saying it's not still probably the single most broken item in the game. The setup for meteor is nice, but you can still cold snap meteor people without it and have accomplished the same thing, the only thing euls really gives you now is a verified sun strike.

[PizzaSHARK]

I stopped playing support heroes that don't get farm because of that basically. I'll take CM and go jungle rather than be a starved shadow shaman or something.

Iron Talon is your friend. I have embraced my inner Goblak.

[StrawberryZebra]

Iron Talon is your friend. I have embraced my inner Goblak.

Iron Talon is nice, but you've still got to get the gold together for it to start with. Its not so bad if you're playing someone who can get a bit of farm, but for a pos 5 support you've got to either delay buying the Talon or delay something else to buy it. Neither option is really ideal. You could start with a Ring of Protection, its not a bad starting item for most supports, but with no farm you'd have enough to complete the Talon at about the same time you're able to buy a Flying Courier.

I suppose you could get it as your starting item, however that would leave you without enough gold for a Courier and Wards. You could get one ward with it, but then you'd not have any Regen in lane and almost certainly be forced back to the fountian before too long. Or you could get a Courier and no wards. All of which are bad choices.

If you delay it further, say to buy Boots or if you need some Dust or Sentries, then you might end up completing it as your carries are starting to farm the jungle for themselves. Its well outside the window for getting unused jungle farm early game. If you're looking to come out gold positive on buying it, you need to get it as early as possible and have plenty of opportunities to use it. When your carries are clearing camps in between pushes you're well passed the time its useful, you're much better off stacking camps rather than farming them yourself.

If you get an early kill or two then you might be able to squeeze it in, but you can't always count on that to happen. As it stands now, the only supports who can really take advantage of early jungle farm are CM and maybe Witch Doctor. Most of the other heroes tend to use too many of their resources to clear a single camp in a good enough time frame to get back to lane when they're needed.

I won't say its not a useful item if you're able to get it early, but if your choices are setting your whole team back by buying it or getting it too late for it to really make much of a difference then you're better off just not getting it at all. Highly situational, in my opinion.

[Drunkenvalley]

Iron Talon is your friend. I have embraced my inner Goblak.

Screw that. Frostbite, punch creep thrice, move on.

[Deleted]

Screw that. Frostbite, punch creep thrice, move on.

Nyet, bratan. There must always be an Iron Talon, or the Russians in your game will assume nobody is using the jungle and go jungle with AM.

[Lysah]

Nothing wrong with AM jungle, use blink to abuse hitting from behind trees/up cliffs where creeps can't hit you back, he is still one of the fastest farmers in the game without bfury and you can get a bfury in like 11 minutes from jungling if you do it right, which is about on par with a 100% free farmed lane.

[Drunkenvalley]

I want to see a guide for that Lysah. Sounds fun.

[Lysah]

I want to see a guide for that Lysah. Sounds fun.

Hmm...I write full time for a living now and lost interest in writing as a hobby, but I can try to cough up a replay at least. I know 100% it's possible on Radiant, I'm not actually sure you can do it on Dire, I'll have to play around with it.

[Drunkenvalley]

So... firstpick AM on radiant confirmed?

[Longview]

I'm on phone rn, but google "am cliff jungle webm" and you'll probably be able to find that one /d2g/ webm posted somewhere. 15 min hotd bfury no iron talon

[theostrichsays]

Watching a friend of mine play this morning and saw this gem of a play from the other team:



(hopefully linked it right)