[Megathread] DotA 2

[Morally Grey Storm]

How doesn't it resemble a DD rune? The effect is essentially the same - every 2.5 sec, you attack twice, in effect doing double damage. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

well let's see...
DD rune affects ALL of your attacks fot its duration, while Geminate happens once in 2.5 seconds, and do I have to mention Geminate attacks can't proc a fething thing?
It's pretty obvious Geminate is inferior to DD rune.

[Hermanni]

How doesn't it resemble a DD rune? The effect is essentially the same - every 2.5 sec, you attack twice, in effect doing double damage. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

The only way in which DD rune resembles Geminate is that it gives you damage. Like I said, they function very differently. That still doesn't explain why you need to make a shitty analogy out of everything.

[PizzaSHARK]

well let's see...
DD rune affects ALL of your attacks fot its duration, while Geminate happens once in 2.5 seconds, and do I have to mention Geminate attacks can't proc a fething thing?
It's pretty obvious Geminate is inferior to DD rune.

DD rune only affects your base damage, plus damage gained from stats. Geminate is literally just a free, second attack - so the +81 damage on your buriza is effectively doubled to +162, while with a DD rune it remains just +81 since DD runes don't affect flat damage bonuses. You'd have to crunch numbers to know for sure which is more damage in a given time frame, but for most purposes Geminate functions as a free, more or less permanent DD rune for Weaver.

[Hermanni]

Probably enemy team build rapier, and they took it away

Not quite what I meant, but then again I wasn't being entirely serious either.

[Longview]

Just... fuck that goddamned hero. Why would anyone deliberately pick her?

Because she's new?

[Morally Grey Storm]

DD rune only affects your base damage, plus damage gained from stats. Geminate is literally just a free, second attack - so the +81 damage on your buriza is effectively doubled to +162, while with a DD rune it remains just +81 since DD runes don't affect flat damage bonuses. You'd have to crunch numbers to know for sure which is more damage in a given time frame, but for most purposes Geminate functions as a free, more or less permanent DD rune for Weaver.

but IAS affects how much bonus damage DD rune would provide.
Geminate is set to proc once every 2.5 seconds, so number crunching would have to be made with different sets, like +0% IAS, +50% IAS, +100% IAS etc..
bottom line is , DD rune is better than Geminate

[PizzaSHARK]

The only way in which DD rune resembles Geminate is that it gives you damage. Like I said, they function very differently. That still doesn't explain why you need to make a shitty analogy out of everything.

Differently how? They both give you additional damage based off of how much damage you're already doing. DD rune takes your "white" damage and doubles it, Geminate Attack just sends out a copy of your regular attack minus any orbs/applied effects. They're pretty much the same thing in most respects.

And analogies help you gauge the relative power of a given item or ability. Wisp's Overcharge, for example, provides an amount of IAS close to equal to a Mjollnir. Dagon 1 does damage roughly similar to a Zeus Thunderbolt.

People make analogies like this in the real world all the time because it helps put things in perspective. Why are you taking exception to this behavior being applied to Dota?

---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 12:47 AM ----------

but IAS affects how much bonus damage DD rune would provide.
Geminate is set to proc once every 2.5 seconds, so number crunching would have to be made with different sets, like +0% IAS, +50% IAS, +100% IAS etc..
bottom line is , DD rune is better than Geminate

Good thing it's not mutually exclusive for Weaver

[Morally Grey Storm]

Good thing it's not mutually exclusive for Weaver

this one, we can agree on

[Hermanni]

People make analogies like this in the real world all the time because it helps put things in perspective. Why are you taking exception to this behavior being applied to Dota?

I don't mind analogies, it's just that yours are just really shitty and increasingly repetitive because for you everything seems to be "free X" or "Y on steroids" so you can further exaggerate whatever bullshit you're trying to make up. What Weaver has is Geminate Attack, which is not "free" and not a "DD rune", so why even make everything sound like "fuck weaver basically has super op weave combined with march of the machines and shadow walk and stampede on steroids with free dd rune and free cheese."

[Omnoms]

So, being new to dota2, should I play champs like sven/tiny... well, strength champs?

[Underskilled]

Differently how? They both give you additional damage based off of how much damage you're already doing. DD rune takes your "white" damage and doubles it, Geminate Attack just sends out a copy of your regular attack minus any orbs/applied effects. They're pretty much the same thing in most respects.

And analogies help you gauge the relative power of a given item or ability. Wisp's Overcharge, for example, provides an amount of IAS close to equal to a Mjollnir. Dagon 1 does damage roughly similar to a Zeus Thunderbolt.

Because, it's not exactly correct. As you said, Geminate Attack sends out a copy of your attack, minus orbs, etc. Comparing it to a DD rune just seems odd, as they're far too different in most aspects. If anything, Geminate Attack is better compared to an orb effect all on it's own.

[Hermanni]

So, being new to dota2, should I play champs like sven/tiny... well, strength champs?

Play what you like, strength heroes aren't necessarily easier than any others. In the hero selection screen you can enable a filter that highlights some beginner friendly heroes that are pretty easy to get hang of. Or just random.

[Enkidulgaa]

I don't mind analogies, it's just that yours are just really shitty and increasingly repetitive because for you everything seems to be "free X" or "Y on steroids" so you can further exaggerate whatever bullshit you're trying to make up. What Weaver has is Geminate Attack, which is not "free" and not a "DD rune", so why even make everything sound like "fuck weaver basically has super op weave combined with march of the machines and shadow walk and stampede on steroids with free dd rune and free cheese."

PA is the most broken hero in the game
Free sange proc
2 free hyperstones
free butterfly
free daedalus

[PizzaSHARK]

Because, it's not exactly correct. As you said, Geminate Attack sends out a copy of your attack, minus orbs, etc. Comparing it to a DD rune just seems odd, as they're far too different in most aspects. If anything, Geminate Attack is better compared to an orb effect all on it's own.

You and Hermanni are both saying this without explaining yourselves.

How are they so drastically different? Geminate Attack generates a second, free attack when it's available, effectively doubling your regular attack damage.

A DD rune effectively doubles your damage by, uh, doubling your damage. Number crunching aside, how are these two things so dramatically different that they aren't roughly analogous?

[Underskilled]

You and Hermanni are both saying this without explaining yourselves.

How are they so drastically different? Geminate Attack generates a second, free attack when it's available, effectively doubling your regular attack damage.

A DD rune effectively doubles your damage by, uh, doubling your damage. Number crunching aside, how are these two things so dramatically different that they aren't roughly analogous?

A DD rune increases the damage your auto-attacks do, by double, one might even say. If you've got 100 base damage, a double damage run will give you another 100 damage, increasing your attacks to 200 damage. If you've got a 150% crit modifier, your 150 damage crits will become 300 damage crits. If you've got a bash effect, your attacks will do 200 damage, in addition to having a chance to bash the target, making them hate their lives just a little more.

Geminate Attack, is a second attack. It will NOT (under some circumstances) double your auto attack damage, it will NOT apply itself with a crit modifier, and it will NOT apply itself with a bash, or any other attack modifier.

Geminate Attack in comparable to a DD rune, in the sense they both make your next attack hit harder, that's pretty much it.

[Longview]

A DD rune effectively doubles your damage by, uh, doubling your damage. Number crunching aside, how are these two things so dramatically different that they aren't roughly analogous?

Can't crit
No attack modifiers will work
It will get buffed by +attack-modifiers, which Double Damage will not

Besides, how is that even your main complaint when you get outcarried by a Weaver? Auto attack damage has never been Weavers strong side when it comes to carrying.

[PizzaSHARK]

A DD rune increases the damage your auto-attacks do, by double, one might even say. If you've got 100 base damage, a double damage run will give you another 100 damage, increasing your attacks to 200 damage. If you've got a 150% crit modifier, your 150 damage crits will become 300 damage crits. If you've got a bash effect, your attacks will do 200 damage, in addition to having a chance to bash the target, making them hate their lives just a little more.

Geminate Attack, is a second attack. It will NOT (under some circumstances) double your auto attack damage, it will NOT apply itself with a crit modifier, and it will NOT apply itself with a bash, or any other attack modifier.

Geminate Attack in comparable to a DD rune, in the sense they both make your next attack hit harder, that's pretty much it.

How wouldn't it double your autoattack damage when it's literally a second attack? Every 2.5 seconds, you hit twice instead of once - shouldn't that by definition be a doubled auto attack?

I agree that DD will do a lot of damage with a crit, but even a regular attack that crits and then gets a free second attack that doesn't crit won't be far behind the DD-crit in terms of total damage.

Can't crit
No attack modifiers will work
It will get buffed by +attack-modifiers, which Double Damage will not

Besides, how is that even your main complaint when you get outcarried by a Weaver? Auto attack damage has never been Weavers strong side when it comes to carrying.

Seems like it's not really dusa's, either. Buriza, Manta, Butterfly, and Linken's and it still felt like she wasn't hitting very hard. Hitting lots of targets for decent damage all at once, but even compared to a Sniper it didn't feel like her damage to individual targets was particularly high. Drow crits for 1000 with only a couple items, Dusa with a nearly full inventory was barely making 750.

If Weaver's strong suit isn't autoattacking, what is it? Besides being a pest.

[Underskilled]

How wouldn't it double your autoattack damage when it's literally a second attack? Every 2.5 seconds, you hit twice instead of once - shouldn't that by definition be a doubled auto attack?

You're exactly right, Geminate Attack is a double auto attack. A DD Rune is an auto attack with double damage.

[PizzaSHARK]

You're exactly right, Geminate Attack is a double auto attack. A DD Rune is an auto attack with double damage.

And for most intents and purposes, they are the same.

[Underskilled]

And for most intents and purposes, they are the same.

That simply isn't true, their similarities do not go beyond "Your attacks do more damage".