[Megathread] DotA 2

[Kurdiern]

Jumping in thread for this post.

Tiny really is OP, you don't really stop him at any point of the game. He's a prime example of why STR>AGI in terms of carrying. AM or spectre might end a game solo, but they need 45 minutes of being left completely alone to do it. Tiny can 1v2 two ranged heroes, still pick up kills if anyone runs into him alone, still push ranged and support heroes of out lanes, and also become one of the most terrifying carries late game. But that's what's great about DotA, any hero can perform any role if built that way. The game is centered around the items, not the heroes.

Main reason I left LoL permanently the day I got a DotA2 key > boring meta play. LoL is a solid 20 minutes of lane phase most games, DotA the lane phase is over as early as 6. LoL is pretty much ALWAYS solo mid, solo top, support/carry bot and jungler. DotA is solo top/tri bot, two top solo bot roamer, two mid solo top solo bot roamer, etc. And then, once people FINALLY start leaving their lanes for pushes, LoL becomes 150% about staying in a pack of 5. Team fights are over in mere seconds, and that's the entire game. DotA is much, much more friendly to split pushing and late game traps/ganks than LoL, where most games that last more than 30 minutes both teams just run around as 5 until they happen to run into each other or someone tries to baron.

I won't put up a value statement like "dota takes more skill," but I will assert that it has much more personal involvement in the gameplay. Look at the difference in how supports and carries play out in late game team fights and it should be at least a little obvious.

Tiny 2v1 ranged heroes? His manapool is so limited he needs to be incredibly judicious with his combo until he gets his farm. He'll get harassed to hell if he tries to last hit. Put him against 2 ranged heroes, say a WR & a OD. Useless. Banished to hell, no mana. Locked downed and harassed by a WR. He isn't OP at all. He needs a Blink Dagger & Agy is pretty much core in him. That's a lot of farm. Na'Vi have been trying to use him but he just doesn't work. He doesn't carry. He's a great ganker with abilities, but late game a Spectre or Weaver will outright destroy him. Sure, he hits hard. Too bad he attacks 50% slower due to Ulti, and a carry needs both Damage & AS to be good.

For me the visual style of DotA2 is great. Love it tons.

@ Swiftero: The game is less forgiving. Definitely. Stick with it though. If there's one thing to keep in mind about DotA, it's the more you play it the better it will be.

@ Dulliath: Agree, Hannover showed some interesting picks and a bit of deviation, but for the large part it was the same. DotA meanwhile you have trilane, roaming, pushing, etc....

I remember a post on Reddit commenting on the differences. In LoL, the towers protect you. In DotA, you protect the towers. Both make sense, but it really shows the difference between the two IMO.

[Lysah]

Tiny 2v1 ranged heroes?

I won a lane today as earthshaker against pudge and leshrac, can show if you'd like. DotA is much more given to skill rather than matchup in early game (another thing I didn't like about LoL).

Anyway, levelling his ult hurts him and shouldn't be done. Most "pro" players don't actually think outside the box, something I look down on them for. Tiny is probably the toughest carry in the game right now, in my opinion. The biggest other picks in Sven or Merc get countered immediately by his passive.

[PizzaSHARK]

DoTA2 is a clone of DoTA with a better engine under the hood. In terms of play it is identical. So saying that DoTA2 has more options in its meta-game than LoL because it is "new" is just laughable. Comparison with LoL is not really fair anyway. LoL was designed to be easier to pick up and play than DoTA and will never have the complexity of the original...because it is not meant to be so. HoN is a better comparison.

Agreed. I don't really see DOTA2 stealing a lot of players from LoL, or vice-versa - they're aimed at two different audiences.

If you want to compare LoL to Halo - accessible, colorful, easy to play, and with simple mechanics - then DOTA2 would be CPMA Quake 3: complex, not easily accessible, and with a lot of complex mechanics under the hood (and not as pretty.)

The only place these games would have overlap is in "OMG MY GAME REQUIRES MOAR SKILL," in which case the LoL players are just talking out their butts and the "argument," is irrelevant to what's more fun in the first place. Personally, if I were gonna get back into MOBA games, I'd probably continue sticking with LoL's Dominion mode because it's fun as hell.

[Kurdiern]

I won a lane today as earthshaker against pudge and leshrac, can show if you'd like. DotA is much more given to skill rather than matchup in early game (another thing I didn't like about LoL).

Anyway, levelling his ult hurts him and shouldn't be done. Most "pro" players don't actually think outside the box, something I look down on them for. Tiny is probably the toughest carry in the game right now, in my opinion. The biggest other picks in Sven or Merc get countered immediately by his passive.

Would like that replay actually.

Levelin Tiny's ult is something I do, I've seen replays where it has been skipped. Bonus toss & damage too good to pass up in my opinion though I could see why some would skip it to max Throw/Stun first.

Tiny & Sven I don't really see as hard carries. Semi maybe at best, mainly due to the utility they bring and potential to snowball, but equally farmed up against a Spectre or Void I can't see them coming out ahead. Tiny at least has the damage through Stun/Throw & a passive damage bonus from ulti, but Sven? He stuns you for 2 seconds and then what. I've seen too many time Sven just being unable to kill because aside from that Stun, all he has is his Ulti. His cleave is horrible & 1 lvl in Warcry gives you all the damage output that skill is going to give. Since he's a Str hero also he doesn't attack as quickly as an Agi carry.

I still think Agi Heroes carry harder than Str. Mainly because if you hit hard that's cool. Agi Carries will hit just as hard but faster & with more armor.

[Deleted]

Ugh. I am not sure how I feel about having to get (on) Steam to try DotA2.

Tell me... What the F is wrong with getting on Steam? It's a goddamn good service, not perfect, but most likely the best there is as of right now.

[PizzaSHARK]

Tell me... What the F is wrong with getting on Steam? It's a goddamn good service, not perfect, but most likely the best there is as of right now.

Every complaint regarding modern Steam has been from folks outside the US. Maybe their servers suck or something.

[Deleted]

Every complaint regarding modern Steam has been from folks outside the US. Maybe their servers suck or something.

Hmm, I guess, but that doesn't seem like a very good reason to me. Never really heard of big Steam issues. Also, I'm not living in the US.

[Garnik]

I do not like Dota 2 for the same reason I do not like HoN.

Its almost been 10 years since the Warcraft III version of Dota was released, and even older if you include the "Aoen of Strife" for Starcraft 1. You would think over so long time that the model of the game would evolve just a tiny bit. HoN and Dota 2 is essentially the original free Dota custom shipped with a pricetag. The only difference if the updated graphics and more comprehensible controls. Much like CoD and Battlefield. No innovation at all.

[Kurdiern]

I do not like Dota 2 for the same reason I do not like HoN.

Its almost been 10 years since the Warcraft III version of Dota was released, and even older if you include the "Aoen of Strife" for Starcraft 1. You would think over so long time that the model of the game would evolve just a tiny bit. HoN and Dota 2 is essentially the original free Dota custom shipped with a pricetag. The only difference if the updated graphics and more comprehensible controls. Much like CoD and Battlefield. No innovation at all.

DotA2 was expected to be an updated and incredibly polished DotA. There was no mistaking that. Everyone I talked to with prior-DotA experience about DotA2 would have just been having being free from the limitations of the WC3 engine. DotA2 is most likely going to be free. You're getting an updated classic game backed by Valve for free. Hell of a deal if I don't say so myself.

DotA is also the type of game in my opinion that doesn't really so per say "evolve" like you would expect from something like Uncharted 1 -> Uncharted 2 or Halo 1 -> Halo 2. You can do "innovative" things like removing last hitting and creating a static gold income, completely changing items, give heroes less/more abilities, etc....but why would you do that? LoL is already out there along with the upcoming Blizzard DotA if you want a different type of MobA. DotA2 is DotA. I really don't know how to say it any other way.

For me, plenty of innovation comes from the game itself. The core gameplay will always be the same. The game, however, evolves from new heroes/items, which Icefrog will introduce, it evolves from players adapting new strategies. No one game you play will ever be the same. Everytime I que up for a game of DotA2, I know it won't be the same as my last game, or the game before that, or that, etc...

[PizzaSHARK]

I do not like Dota 2 for the same reason I do not like HoN.

Its almost been 10 years since the Warcraft III version of Dota was released, and even older if you include the "Aoen of Strife" for Starcraft 1. You would think over so long time that the model of the game would evolve just a tiny bit. HoN and Dota 2 is essentially the original free Dota custom shipped with a pricetag. The only difference if the updated graphics and more comprehensible controls. Much like CoD and Battlefield. No innovation at all.

If it ain't broke, why fix it? There's nothing wrong with adding new modes (see: LoL's Dominion mode), but messing with the basic DotA three-lane format is bound to divide the fanbase - it's a large part of why DotA purists sneer down their noses at LoL players, especially those that take Summoner's Rift seriously.

Honestly, if you look back, most sequels have very little innovation. Quake 3 wasn't very much different from Quake 2. Multiplayer, of course, because no one buys Quake games for the single player.

[Hraklea]

Sidenote, Xypherous had a very long discussion about zero gold support. In a way, I'm a bit saddened to see the same in DotA2, where one person basically donates their all to improve the effectiveness of the others.

Riot "solved" the problem with gold per second items. And as you might know, they were nerfed during season 1. (and pr0 players taking so long to realize that gp10 was broken is... something.)

I find it silly that people say that dota2 has more options than lol's current meta. Ofc it has, it's new.

LoL never had the same amount of viable picks as DotA 2, and I've been playing LoL since closed beta.

If it ain't broke, why fix it?

But if there's room for improvement, why do not make it better?

[Lysah]

Would like that replay actually.

Levelin Tiny's ult is something I do, I've seen replays where it has been skipped. Bonus toss & damage too good to pass up in my opinion though I could see why some would skip it to max Throw/Stun first.

Tiny & Sven I don't really see as hard carries. Semi maybe at best, mainly due to the utility they bring and potential to snowball, but equally farmed up against a Spectre or Void I can't see them coming out ahead. Tiny at least has the damage through Stun/Throw & a passive damage bonus from ulti, but Sven? He stuns you for 2 seconds and then what. I've seen too many time Sven just being unable to kill because aside from that Stun, all he has is his Ulti. His cleave is horrible & 1 lvl in Warcry gives you all the damage output that skill is going to give. Since he's a Str hero also he doesn't attack as quickly as an Agi carry.

I still think Agi Heroes carry harder than Str. Mainly because if you hit hard that's cool. Agi Carries will hit just as hard but faster & with more armor.

Difference is, Spectre is very unlikely to be farmed in a real game, same with void. The sheer amount of time it takes for them to become scary is absurd, 45 minutes at best. Sure they're entirely unstoppable when they are, but tiny and sven will be way ahead of them by then.

I don't mean skip ult in favor of other skills, either, I mean skip it entirely. Toss > stun > CE > 1 in ult whenever you finish scepter > stats. When you get to 24/25 save the two skill points and don't use them. Both tiny and sven also have amazing lane potential, Sven can solo mid against just about anything and win if he's good. Strength is definitely a different type of carry - while SA hits for 300 damage and attacks very fast, Sven hits for 500 damage, a bit slower, but also cleaves and has 2800 health to SA's 1200. Most strengths also have a stun, which few agilitys have.

Also I'm not sure, when you save replays in DotA2 does it put a file anywhere on your PC or do you just have to watch it in game? If it's in game only that makes them hard to share unless I want to fraps my own replay.

[Finear]

Difference is, Spectre is very unlikely to be farmed in a real game, same with void. The sheer amount of time it takes for them to become scary is absurd, 45 minutes at best. Sure they're entirely unstoppable when they are, but tiny and sven will be way ahead of them by then.

I don't mean skip ult in favor of other skills, either, I mean skip it entirely. Toss > stun > CE > 1 in ult whenever you finish scepter > stats. When you get to 24/25 save the two skill points and don't use them. Both tiny and sven also have amazing lane potential, Sven can solo mid against just about anything and win if he's good. Strength is definitely a different type of carry - while SA hits for 300 damage and attacks very fast, Sven hits for 500 damage, a bit slower, but also cleaves and has 2800 health to SA's 1200. Most strengths also have a stun, which few agilitys have.

Also I'm not sure, when you save replays in DotA2 does it put a file anywhere on your PC or do you just have to watch it in game? If it's in game only that makes them hard to share unless I want to fraps my own replay.

both tiny and sven are melee blink dagger dependent heroes, one force staff - they are gone
and they need tons of farm (which is hard to get) to even try be as effective as typical agi carry also BKB shuts tiny down completly

big hp pool wont help you if tiny have almost 0 basic armor and worst agi gain in the game
do you know why doombringer is no longer 1st pick?
http://www.playdota.com/items/medallion-of-courage


void or am with bfury farm way faster then tiny and they have free blink
dont get me wrong hes good hero (for pubs, i know that navi picked him in defense finals but it was dendi playing) but shity carry

replays are saved on your disk but AFAIK you can only open them in game
if you want to share rep just send replay ID or your nick

[Lysah]

What people do in tourney's should absolutely never be taken as the literal way to play the game.

[Finear]

What people do in tourney's should absolutely never be taken as the literal way to play the game.

i agree, so why argue about tiny?
you can pick crystal maiden in pubs and win game as carry
does it mean that shes legit carry picky?
no

[Lysah]

I don't have to argue, I have a history with tiny. And even if you want to tell me that "it only works in pubs," well, pubs are all I will ever play, they are all 99.9% of the community will ever play, so it wouldn't make it wrong even if it were true.

[Jinto]

Tiny is not really a carry. Best you can describe it would be a soft carry. Tiny "carry" by ganking and building an item and level advantage. If you had a Tiny that just farmed for 40mins you wouldn't think "hey Tiny is buff now we have chance" vs say a Void that did the same.

[Freezymcgee]

Sven can solo mid against just about anything and win if he's good.

Im sorry but thats just silly and wrong. Any good player with a good mid solo Viper, Lich, Tinker will render Sven useless by the 10 minute mark.

As far as your saying "it will only work in pubs" as not relevant because its all that 99.9% will play is also incorrect, what the poster probably wanted to say was low-level pubs, tiny is really only OP when crushing bad players, his killing power is significantly diminished past lvl 11~ when people have the HP to survive the combo. And as far as what people as "what people do in tourney should not be taken as a literal way to play the game" is another silly statement, Im sorry if this sounds condescending but there is vast difference between a high-level game and a low-level game and from the posts you have made so far its pretty obvious you have only been involved in the latter. This is further supported by your statement of beating a lesh and pudge with ES, thats just silly and not possible unless the other two are just awful. Tournament play is extremely relevant to a large percentage of the playerbase.

stomping nubs with Tiny may be just fine for you and Im sure you have done it often, but its just not relevant in a higher level game.

[Lysah]

The matchmaking system won't allow me to play low level games, sorry, but you're making stupid assumptions and aren't coming off very convincing.

"You can win a game using a build I can't use you must be playing bads," an attitude that many people share in LoL. See, the games aren't that different.

[Kurdiern]

Difference is, Spectre is very unlikely to be farmed in a real game, same with void. The sheer amount of time it takes for them to become scary is absurd, 45 minutes at best. Sure they're entirely unstoppable when they are, but tiny and sven will be way ahead of them by then.

I don't mean skip ult in favor of other skills, either, I mean skip it entirely. Toss > stun > CE > 1 in ult whenever you finish scepter > stats. When you get to 24/25 save the two skill points and don't use them. Both tiny and sven also have amazing lane potential, Sven can solo mid against just about anything and win if he's good. Strength is definitely a different type of carry - while SA hits for 300 damage and attacks very fast, Sven hits for 500 damage, a bit slower, but also cleaves and has 2800 health to SA's 1200. Most strengths also have a stun, which few agilitys have.

Also I'm not sure, when you save replays in DotA2 does it put a file anywhere on your PC or do you just have to watch it in game? If it's in game only that makes them hard to share unless I want to fraps my own replay.

If you give me your DotA profile or add me on steam (MadShadowHax) I could probably just check your match history & download/watch the replay.

I really can't see skipping the Ulti. Delaying to max Stun/Throw possibly, but for 1 level of ulti you get more toss damage, move speed increase, & 50 damage is worth much much more than 1 level of stats in my opinion. In addition you can't use Agy Scepter until you skill Grow, and Agy scepter is about as core on him as a Blink Dagger I would argue.

45 minutes if you have horrible farm maybe, but with proper babysitting and good last hitting I've seen easily 25 min Treads/Vanguard/Radiance on a Spectre. A carry is really a hero who can, late game, carry. Tiny especially lacks that late game carry potential. He is more of a ganker who can snowball and give you an advantage early game, but if he faces up against an Agi who got that farm late game, he will get destroyed.