[Megathread] DotA 2

[Hermanni]

"pretty sure no one queues 5 stacks just to win games"

What I said was

I think the most beneficial thing to being in a stack is playing with your friends. I'm pretty sure people don't stack because they want to beat poor solo queuers and tryhard their way to winning, they stack because playing with friends is more fun than playing alone.

I may have forgotten to write 'most people' instead of 'people', but it should be fairly obvious that I didn't mean nobody in the universe ever does it.

[LiiLoSNK]

What I said was



I may have forgotten to write 'most people' instead of 'people', but it should be fairly obvious that I didn't mean nobody in the universe ever does it.

But it's common. So maybe I didn't prove you wrong, but instead just corrected you.

[Keldarin]

Can I butt in with a question?

What's the fastest/best way to get a better gamefeel? I'm talking about how do you know when the enemy is going to push a tower, or when will there be a team fight, etc.

I'm reading up on all the guides to try and get what information I can from there, but I don't have the time to play the game all that much.
When I am playing I try to spend as much time as I can to get a good sense of the hero as well as the gameflow. When to push and when/where to defend, including who goes where.

It's a lot to try and make sense of at once, so how do I understand the game better, where do I focus my attention. What's the most important concepts to grasp first?

[Longview]

What's the fastest/best way to get a better gamefeel?

play different heroes, different lanes, different game modes, playing more dota is the best way

It's a lot to try and make sense of at once, so how do I understand the game better, where do I focus my attention. What's the most important concepts to grasp first?

ill let you in on a secret

if you click on enemy heroes and look at the minimap every couple of seconds, you're going to be better than >90% of the player pool once you get better with mechanics

look what items enemy heroes bring to lane, if they lack regen - go aggressive and force them out of lane. check for dust/wards/sheep sticks/bkbs/whatever. play accordingly

look at the minimap. if four enemies are missing, you're probably not safe. you might be, but think of it as a risk - is the creeps/tower/kill/whatever worth it if you die? you don't always have to play safe, especially not when you're in the lead. number advantages are important across all levels of play - four heroes > three heroes. push when your enemy is on the other side of the map. defend towers by being at them before your enemy gets there (you can see them on the minimap pushing the wave long before they reach the tower usually.

people might tell you to buy wards to win (or you might see the "gg no wards"), but the truth is that wards do not do a god damn thing if you're not looking at the mini map. a ward in the jungle will save your life multiple times in the side lane, and it's only 150 gold for two of them, lasting seven minutes!

lastly, remember that dota is not about kills or towers or creeps or gold or items or wards or heroes. these are just keys and stepping stones to what dota is about: defending your ancient and destroying your opponents ancient.

hope this makes sense

[Charge me Doctor]

So you don't use vent and just sit in raids hoping everyone just "figures it out". Sounds like top level play if I've ever heard of it.

I think he meant that they don't shittalk during fights.

And i think he is right. There is no need to say something like "pudge is missing from my middle line, last time i've seen him moving to top rune spawn, it's 8th minute and i assume that he have got invis rune since t he last rune wasn't invis, expect gank on top lane, i'll try to push my lane to deny as many creeps as i can and will try to take tower low enough so i will be able to finish it with some help, just keep me in touch with what is happening on top so i won't be ganked." because by pinging "middle is missing" other players should understand in what danger they are instead of listening to someone mumbling in voice chat and disctracting from gameplay.

@Keldarin
Basically, all you need in pub dota games is awareness, common sense and basic knowledge of game mechanics. You don't need 100% of attention on your lane. You won't miss any last hits even with 50% attention on your lane, just look at what's happening on map and you will be good.
Also, there is not so much to get from watching "pro players", it's all boils down to how you react on current events. How fast enemy magnus can get dagger and enemy team will try to force you into teamfight and such.
Probably, one thing you can get from "pro players" is how to ward and deward

[LiiLoSNK]

I think he meant that they don't shittalk during fights.

And i think he is right. There is no need to say something like "pudge is missing from my middle line, last time i've seen him moving to top rune spawn, it's 8th minute and i assume that he have got invis rune since t he last rune wasn't invis, expect gank on top lane, i'll try to push my lane to deny as many creeps as i can and will try to take tower low enough so i will be able to finish it with some help, just keep me in touch with what is happening on top so i won't be ganked." because by pinging "middle is missing" other players should understand in what danger they are instead of listening to someone mumbling in voice chat and disctracting from gameplay

"pudge top rune level X and has these items".

That takes 3 seconds to say and You now know 3x more about the pudge that you couldn't have known from chat wheel and without having to constantly be panning your camera mid to check up on him. Knowing what the pudge has can be the difference between more/less farm/harass from your lane.

Again, I guess it's all personal preference. To me, it's faster and more specific than a ping.

I'm sure I'll switch to the ping system when they create one for, "Doom and veno's ults will be on cd for this much longer". Until then, I'll relay that info myself as it is important for some levels of play.

[Charge me Doctor]

"pudge top rune level X and has these items".

That takes 3 seconds to say and You now know 3x more about the pudge that you couldn't have known from chat wheel and without having to constantly be panning your camera mid to check up on him. Knowing what the pudge has can be the difference between more/less farm/harass from your lane.

Again, I guess it's all personal preference. To me, it's faster and more specific than a ping.

I'm sure I'll switch to the ping system when they create one for, "Doom and veno's ults will be on cd for this much longer". Until then, I'll relay that info myself as it is important for some levels of play.

You should check on every hero on enemy team. Especially on middle lane hero. You don't need to constantly check him, you spend like, 1-2 seconds to check what level he is and what items he has, it's much quicker than listening to someone giving you that information and processing it in your head.

It's part of personal skill level to know how long CDs on certain characters, you shouldn't expect others to tell you something that you should know by yourself. If i farm as a late game carry, i often find myself having a lot of free time to look around, like 2 or 5 seconds per creep since they don't die so quick unless enemy pushes line and you need only 1 hit to get gold.

Honestly, i've seen a lot people dying to ganks even when they were pinged about it like hundred times, and they still went nuts about someone not telling them about gank in voice chat.But if you need a personal alarm to be aware of things happening in game, you should consider not playing it

[LiiLoSNK]

You should check on every hero on enemy team. Especially on middle lane hero. You don't need to constantly check him, you spend like, 1-2 seconds to check what level he is and what items he has, it's much quicker than listening to someone giving you that information and processing it in your head.

It's part of personal skill level to know how long CDs on certain characters, you shouldn't expect others to tell you something that you should know by yourself. If i farm as a late game carry, i often find myself having a lot of free time to look around, like 2 or 5 seconds per creep since they don't die so quick unless enemy pushes line and you need only 1 hit to get gold.

Honestly, i've seen a lot people dying to ganks even when they were pinged about it like hundred times, and they still went nuts about someone not telling them about gank in voice chat.But if you need a personal alarm to be aware of things happening in game, you should consider not playing it

1) Expecting flawless play out of your team where every member sees every thing that happens and keeps mental note of all cd timers.
2) Playing dota 2

Pick one.

[Charge me Doctor]

1) Expecting flawless play out of your team where every member sees every thing that happens and keeps mental note of all cd timers.
2) Playing dota 2

Pick one.

I don't expect everyone to do so, it's just what i do while playing. If other players don't do it, my mumbling in voice chat certainly won't help them. Chat wheel is enough to communicate in dota, it provides enough information, there is no need to do DBM for dota 2, so you won't have to do anything except moving around and using skills.

[LiiLoSNK]

I don't expect everyone to do so, it's just what i do while playing. If other players don't do it, my mumbling in voice chat certainly won't help them. Chat wheel is enough to communicate in dota, it provides enough information, there is no need to do DBM for dota 2, so you won't have to do anything except moving around and using skills.

I also don't expect everyone to do so, which is why it helps to let them know. If you have a mumbling problem then yea voice comm might not be the tool for you. I speak clear and to the point on information vital to victory.

[Charge me Doctor]

I also don't expect everyone to do so, which is why it helps to let them know. If you have a mumbling problem then yea voice comm might not be the tool for you. I speak clear and to the point on information vital to victory.

Well, it's your opinion on how clear you sound in game. Some people will be pissed off by you telling them what to do, or you will distract them, or they won't get information you provide, or your information won't correlate with their information (like you said that enemy is going to top for a gank, bottom line will feel safe but you were wrong and enemy smoke-ganked bottom line, as they expected from begin). From my experience, people talking in voice chat provide zero information about current game and/or cause destructive force on their own team. Haven't heard anything except mom-fuckers, angry kids and wannabe pro players who-know-everything-and-tell-you-that-you-should-get-blademail-first-on-Axe.

When i heard someone trying to communicate in voice chat for last time, i've heard things like "Nix use carapace invoker got sunstrike", Nix uses carapace, carapace wears off, sunstrike lands, "omg Nix such a noob you used it too early". After a while we understood that he didn't meant Nix to use his carapace now, he just said that because he thought that he forgot that he has such an ability, huh.
Back in dota, things like "Zeus ult" in chat were uncommon, now you don't even need to say it, because people are much better and aware about game.

Honestly, i don't believe you that your voice-chat-provided information helps other players at all. If you ping that someone is missing and peeps die to gank from that hero, it still will happen even if you voice it, tell who controls this hero IRL, that he has very slow reaction time, so he won't react properly to you juking him, that they don't have a stun and if you move to a shop right now you will be able to TP out before you die.

Voice communication won't work like it works in WoW for example, there is very short opportunity windows to do stuff, so, if you say "OK, i'm going to blink and RB them in 3 seconds", after 3 seconds there will be no one to blink and RP for, because enemy won't just stand still for 3 seconds (implying no naga ult). If there is opportunity window, you and 4 other players should see it and react properly, there is little to no time for communication in teamfights, and if someone "late for a party", opportunity is lost and you probably just wasted 2 big ults because your AM wanted to get this ancient camp before you engage. Yes, he could say "hey guys wait i need these 200 gold", which will lead to a response like "no you shithead come over here, fuck, they turned away now we have to apply pressure somewhere else"

[Deleted]

CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG !!!! D:


Yes everyone being able to speaking the same language and speaking quick tactics helps but you can function to a decent level with pings and basic chat wheel commands at high level because people understand the game (well most do)

[Charge me Doctor]

CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG !!!! D:


Yes everyone being able to speaking the same language and speaking quick tactics helps but you can function to a decent level with pings and basic chat wheel commands at high level because people understand the game (well most do)

If we all just get along there will be no need for this forum, there will be just a news page and no one will have any conversations about different topics

[LiiLoSNK]

Well, it's your opinion on how clear you sound in game. Some people will be pissed off by you telling them what to do, or you will distract them, or they won't get information you provide, or your information won't correlate with their information (like you said that enemy is going to top for a gank, bottom line will feel safe but you were wrong and enemy smoke-ganked bottom line, as they expected from begin). From my experience, people talking in voice chat provide zero information about current game and/or cause destructive force on their own team. Haven't heard anything except mom-fuckers, angry kids and wannabe pro players who-know-everything-and-tell-you-that-you-should-get-blademail-first-on-Axe.

When i heard someone trying to communicate in voice chat for last time, i've heard things like "Nix use carapace invoker got sunstrike", Nix uses carapace, carapace wears off, sunstrike lands, "omg Nix such a noob you used it too early". After a while we understood that he didn't meant Nix to use his carapace now, he just said that because he thought that he forgot that he has such an ability, huh.
Back in dota, things like "Zeus ult" in chat were uncommon, now you don't even need to say it, because people are much better and aware about game.

Honestly, i don't believe you that your voice-chat-provided information helps other players at all. If you ping that someone is missing and peeps die to gank from that hero, it still will happen even if you voice it, tell who controls this hero IRL, that he has very slow reaction time, so he won't react properly to you juking him, that they don't have a stun and if you move to a shop right now you will be able to TP out before you die.

I guess the topic is now voice chat so I'll stick with that.

I've never been told that my information is distracting or unclear. And also, you're starting to change the argument slightly because you can also ping someone the wrong information. If you say "mia mid" then ping top (like you said earlier) and they smoke gank bot instead, how is that any different from the situation you just provided me with?

Your experience with voice chat sounds awful and I'm obviously not arguing that shit talkers and angry wannabe pro kids are using it the correct way. I'm just saying yet again that there are things in dota that aren't covered by the chat wheel. IF USED CORRECTLY, voice chat can be infinitely more useful than the chat wheel. I've heard people abuse the chat system too, but I've also heard warnings from other teammates perspectives that help execute better team play, as it is 100% impossible to see every single thing that goes on in a dota match by yourself. Since some of these little things people miss aren't covered by chat wheel, that's where voice chat picks up the slack.

[Keldarin]

play different heroes, different lanes, different game modes, playing more dota is the best way



ill let you in on a secret

if you click on enemy heroes and look at the minimap every couple of seconds, you're going to be better than >90% of the player pool once you get better with mechanics

look what items enemy heroes bring to lane, if they lack regen - go aggressive and force them out of lane. check for dust/wards/sheep sticks/bkbs/whatever. play accordingly

look at the minimap. if four enemies are missing, you're probably not safe. you might be, but think of it as a risk - is the creeps/tower/kill/whatever worth it if you die? you don't always have to play safe, especially not when you're in the lead. number advantages are important across all levels of play - four heroes > three heroes. push when your enemy is on the other side of the map. defend towers by being at them before your enemy gets there (you can see them on the minimap pushing the wave long before they reach the tower usually.

people might tell you to buy wards to win (or you might see the "gg no wards"), but the truth is that wards do not do a god damn thing if you're not looking at the mini map. a ward in the jungle will save your life multiple times in the side lane, and it's only 150 gold for two of them, lasting seven minutes!

lastly, remember that dota is not about kills or towers or creeps or gold or items or wards or heroes. these are just keys and stepping stones to what dota is about: defending your ancient and destroying your opponents ancient.

hope this makes sense

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I really appreciate it.
I guess it's easy, most of it anyways, in theory. But I believe I'm still a bit slow in practice.
I guess I can do bot games to learn how to up my APM, checking other heroes for their items and get a better minimap overview.
The real game sense will probably only come from playing vs other players, as my experience is that bots are usually a lot easier to predict...

[Charge me Doctor]

I guess the topic is now voice chat so I'll stick with that.

I've never been told that my information is distracting or unclear. And also, you're starting to change the argument slightly because you can also ping someone the wrong information. If you say "mia mid" then ping top (like you said earlier) and they smoke gank bot instead, how is that any different from the situation you just provided me with?

Your experience with voice chat sounds awful and I'm obviously not arguing that shit talkers and angry wannabe pro kids are using it the correct way. I'm just saying yet again that there are things in dota that aren't covered by the chat wheel. IF USED CORRECTLY, voice chat can be infinitely more useful than the chat wheel. I've heard people abuse the chat system too, but I've also heard warnings from other teammates perspectives that help execute better team play, as it is 100% impossible to see every single thing that goes on in a dota match by yourself. Since some of these little things people miss aren't covered by chat wheel, that's where voice chat picks up the slack.

Well, yes, but people tend to give more weight for information that was said to them out loud, than to information that is flashing on map.
I start to think that you try to give too much information via voice chat, remember that it takes long time to give information about previous location of enemy, his status, current location, his intentions. And at least half of this information should be acquired by your teammates long time ago.
If you use your spinal brain to use pings, you have to interrupt your thought process to tell something over voice chat. Off course things like "pudge level 6 left line, he will probably leech exp to level 7 over wall, be careful" cannot be send through chat wheel, but "middle is missing" and "pudge level 6 left line, he will probably leech exp to level 7 over wall, be careful" means the same thing: get the fuck out of there.

Just to be clear:
Chat wheel doesn't interrupts you, spends less time, gives enough information.
Voice chat gets attention from everyone, interrupts you, spends more time, gives more than enough information.

And another issue: imagine all 5 people using voice chat instead of chat wheel. It will be horrible spam with everyone trying to be louder than previous speaker

[Deleted]

Voice chat is a far better communication method, i don't see how this can be argured, its just not really needed MOST of the time tbh, help for timing stuns when you have bad players tho

[LiiLoSNK]

Just to be clear:
Chat wheel doesn't interrupts you, spends less time, gives enough information.
Voice chat gets attention from everyone, interrupts you, spends more time, gives more than enough information.

These might be true for you, but not others. I'm not sure how you think chat wheel doesn't interrupt you if voicechat does. They both involve pressing a button. And both can be heard by everyone last time I checked?

If you aren't comfortable playing a game and talking at the same time, please I hold nothing against your ping system. I've been playing arena for years so talking and gaming comes second nature.

[Charge me Doctor]

These might be true for you, but not others. I'm not sure how you think chat wheel doesn't interrupt you if voicechat does. They both involve pressing a button. And both can be heard by everyone last time I checked?

If you aren't comfortable playing a game and talking at the same time, please I hold nothing against your ping system. I've been playing arena for years so talking and gaming comes second nature.

When you open your mouth to tell something you break your concentration, but when you use wheel, you just press another button as reaction to something happening on your screen (i.e. enemy is missing, i automatically click "9" button on my mouse. It doesn't even requires any attention from me).
That's exact reason why voice chat hurts you more than it helps your team. If you are dedicated person to watch whole game and give information to players, then yes, voice chat is great, but you hurt your in game skills if you talk about what's happening right now and what should be seen by others players too.

From what i read from this forum, a lot of players uses second monitor to watch streams/movies while playing and i don't understand that. You distract yourself by doing so. And this distraction often leads to you losing games. Off course there is no way that you will have flawless teamplay without communication in pub games, even good teams struggle with it, but trying to force communication in sacrifice of your own gameplay is not very good way to go.

I'm not trying to convince you that voice chat must go and chat wheel must be forced to use by everyone, i want to highlight that talking while playing distracts you from what's happening in game, even for short amount of time

[LiiLoSNK]

When you open your mouth to tell something you break your concentration, but when you use wheel, you just press another button as reaction to something happening on your screen (i.e. enemy is missing, i automatically click "9" button on my mouse. It doesn't even requires any attention from me).
That's exact reason why voice chat hurts you more than it helps your team. If you are dedicated person to watch whole game and give information to players, then yes, voice chat is great, but you hurt your in game skills if you talk about what's happening right now and what should be seen by others players too.

From what i read from this forum, a lot of players uses second monitor to watch streams/movies while playing and i don't understand that. You distract yourself by doing so. And this distraction often leads to you losing games. Off course there is no way that you will have flawless teamplay without communication in pub games, even good teams struggle with it, but trying to force communication in sacrifice of your own gameplay is not very good way to go

I guess some people just prefer different methods. To me, talking doesn't break my concentration when playing a game I'm comfortable with. You will never watch a tournament where any one team will just sit there quietly the entire game. They are extremely vocal and help each other our the whole way through. To me, that's how team games are meant to be played.