[Megathread] DotA 2

[Deleted]

Professional game picks this year.

Missing out on a billion Batrider bans.

Personally I don't think Mirana is that good/some patch overbuffed her. I think she's an insanely safe pick+ not a ban worthy hero+ fits into most lineups. TI qualifiers US version had so much Mirana because everyone was copying the only successful US team at that point.

[Charge me Doctor]

Potm has easily the best synergy with other heroes with CC. She gives too much utility, in my pinion, for a hero who can transition into carry that easily

[LiiLoSNK]

1) Start an argument about WKs carry potential compared to other carries.

2) 4 months later, WK enters the meta as a support with average 100LH per game

3) Salty Lysah comes crawling back to boast.

Welcome back.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

PoTS? My memory fails me.

[Jester Joe]

PoTS? My memory fails me.

Potm is Priestess of the Moon, Mirana's original dota name I believe.

1) Start an argument about WKs carry potential compared to other carries.

2) 4 months later, WK enters the meta as a support with average 100LH per game

3) Salty Lysah comes crawling back to boast.

Welcome back.

I thought it started off with it being brought up that WK is a great hero that's underused and will be seen in pro games soon, people were saying he's just a worse lifestealer, and then the carry debate happened.

Which if I'm remembering that correctly, would be completely correct then to say they'll be used in pro games.

[Keldarin]

1) Start an argument about WKs carry potential compared to other carries.

2) 4 months later, WK enters the meta as a support with average 100LH per game

3) Salty Lysah comes crawling back to boast.

Welcome back.

I think you're missing out on a few games, he has been run as a carry a few times as well. With varying success, granted.
I don't really see how he can farm well enough to be a full carry, but he is one of the more awesome "tank/initators" in the game. You don't want him living and can't afford to let him die :P

[LiiLoSNK]

Yes that's why I included the part about him having an average of 100 last hits, where as a normal carry roll will have about double that amount. This confirms that his main roll was support and very rarely carry.

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I thought it started off with it being brought up that WK is a great hero that's underused and will be seen in pro games soon, people were saying he's just a worse lifestealer, and then the carry debate happened.

Which if I'm remembering that correctly, would be completely correct then to say they'll be used in pro games.

Yes carry debate, not support debate.

It'd be like if I argued that I could become a professional basketball player, started practicing hard, then eventually gave up and became a professional baseball player, then came back and said "Told ya so, noobs!".

[Lysah]

I thought it started off with it being brought up that WK is a great hero that's underused and will be seen in pro games soon, people were saying he's just a worse lifestealer, and then the carry debate happened.

Which if I'm remembering that correctly, would be completely correct then to say they'll be used in pro games.

Yes that's true, also I don't recall specifying any specific build but I could be wrong. Suffice to say Leoric is the best hero at anything he does.

[Jester Joe]

Yes carry debate, not support debate.

It'd be like if I argued that I could become a professional basketball player, started practicing hard, then eventually gave up and became a professional baseball player, then came back and said "Told ya so, noobs!".

I'm trying to find the posts, but I believe the "WK will be used in pro games" and the carry debate were two different parts.

[LiiLoSNK]

I'm gonna go ahead and say right now that Chen will never rise to Carry status, just for the chance that it actually happens and Lysah can come by 20 years down the road and say "I called it. I'm the best at dota 4".

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I'm trying to find the posts

I'm not going to bother doing the same, but I'm pretty sure the carry debate happened.

[PizzaSHARK]

Yes that's true, also I don't recall specifying any specific build but I could be wrong. Suffice to say Leoric is the best hero at anything he does.

I'd argue Sven is better as a support because of that insane 16 free armor for creeps and the AOE stun, but whatever I still have no idea why they changed Storm Bolt to be disjointable. They even recorded voice lines for when you stun someone that tried to blink or invis out of it!

Some popular livestreamer, SirActionSlacks or something like that, was playing Omniknight and Reddit exploded with "omg omni so gud" etc etc. I then linked a three month old post where I said the exact same things, and a newer two week old post. Reddit is definitely not somewhere you want to go if you want to have an actual intelligent discussion on the state of the game, it's just a useful dumping ground for fluff.

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really depends on the hero. Some of them really can't do support at least how I read it. Some should be able to do hard hitters *Cough* CM *Cough*.

Armlet Cuirass Buriza. Grats, CM is right-clicking for 500 damage and has more HP than Panda.

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BKB is a come from behind item and always has been

How is it a come from behind item? It's 4000 gold for something that gives you basically no stats, and chances are that if you're behind, you certainly don't have cost-efficient items like SnY, Drum, Armlet, etc to pair with the BKB to ensure you can actually do anything during it. Only heroes like Sven or maybe Weaver, who get huge damage amps from their skills (Sven ult, Weaver free DD rune, etc) can really get away with a "naked" BKB.

It seems to me that it's more like an "okay, our team is in the lead, we want to secure this lead" item that you buy when you're ahead and have the map space to farm it quickly. That seems to be the mentality pro players are using - okay, Luna had a good lane and got good farm, let's afk farm her for 10 mins to get that BKB then she can fight (or she can afk farm more safely to get the items she needs to fight.)

I think it's boring as fuck to watch and even more boring to play, but when stuns are so incredibly strong in DotA... /shrug

[Drunkenvalley]

Think the original conversation popped up around here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post25490376

And I believe Lysah's prediction was this post: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post25502365

[Deleted]

Think the original conversation popped up around here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post25490376

And I believe Lysah's prediction was this post: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post25502365

So top tier carry was mentioned. Nothing about top tier support.

@Hermanni

It wasn't hard to predict WK would be top pick as a carry or top pick as a support? I didn't see anyone mention WK starting to get picked as a support and he still isn't god tier which was talked about in this thread. It isn't about a snail-train meta. Pros just don't prioritize trying to figure out new strategies with new heroes when they already have a style they consider strong.

Mastering and understanding a hero fully requires a lot of time and experimentation and it doesn't even guarantee success. Look at Fnatic. They like to be so different and play weird and pick weird because they want to be innovative and think they got the game figured out. It doesn't work out most of the time and they've become masters of nothing. Sometimes super-sharpened scissors are much more effective than a small rock and rather spending time looking for a bigger one you can just use the scissors until someone else finds a bigger rock and then you steal it.

You also have to consider changed circumstances when looking at why a hero starts getting picked. You can't just say "Mirana didn't get picked then suddenly picked out of nowhere". There were more things that lead to her popularity than just her abilities. I already said the game changed, farming mids became popular and it allowed safe lane carries to be semi-carries. Hard carries fell off.

@Lysah

Nyx did stop getting picked as frequently. He used to be like top offlane choice now he is barely played there anymore. I don't care about the data you presented because I know the trends right now and Nyx isn't one of them.

You don't like to gloat about it but do you realize WK has fallen off completely in popularity lately? Were you right or wrong? Wait... that doesn't even matter because you said WK was strong because of A, B and C and the pros picked it because of D, E and F.

Necrobook got nerfed, EMP got nerfed. That EMP got nerfed or buffed doesn't even matter even because QW Invoker fell off anyways.

[Drunkenvalley]

Speaking of WK support, that was a thing in a game of mine recently. I spent the first five minutes explaining to my team why it was a perfectly valid playstyle lol.

That said, it was the best match I had in like... Idk, years.

[PizzaSHARK]

Why did QW fall off, anyway? The nerf to EMP made it less brainless to combo with Tornado, but it was basically a non-change for experienced Invoker players. Did people just remember how ridiculously good GIANT SKYLASER ION CANNON OF DOOM is?

Leoric's falling off because people are stupid and drafting him as a hard support, which is the exact opposite of what he's best at. Sven is pretty much better than Leoric as a low-farm support, too, though I doubt he'll get drafted anytime soon for that role. I don't know why, though; Warcry is OP as *fuck* if you can block or ban the AOE creep nuke heroes like Pugna and KotL. Creeps with +16 armor are basically immune to towers.

What I don't understand is that they'll draft Leoric as a support early on - which is okay, early lifesteal aura allows you to threaten an early Rosh (especially if someone gets medallion) - but they continue to play him as a hard support instead of giving him farm and XP to let him transition into an annoying semi-carry (cuirass, halberd, etc) that just will not fucking die. It seems like the smartest thing to do would be something like blink dagger into a midas and aim for a late-game win once the midas helps Leoric get to lvl 16 and get caught up on farm. Leaving Leoric as a zero-farm hero with blink into blademail, though... I can't think of anything more pointless, it's like he's trying to pretend he's Axe. Just pick Axe and build Vlad's if you want the lifesteal aura so badly.

[Deleted]

Why did QW fall off, anyway? The nerf to EMP made it less brainless to combo with Tornado, but it was basically a non-change for experienced Invoker players. Did people just remember how ridiculously good GIANT SKYLASER ION CANNON OF DOOM is?

Leoric's falling off because people are stupid and drafting him as a hard support, which is the exact opposite of what he's best at. Sven is pretty much better than Leoric as a low-farm support, too, though I doubt he'll get drafted anytime soon for that role. I don't know why, though; Warcry is OP as *fuck* if you can block or ban the AOE creep nuke heroes like Pugna and KotL. Creeps with +16 armor are basically immune to towers.

What I don't understand is that they'll draft Leoric as a support early on - which is okay, early lifesteal aura allows you to threaten an early Rosh (especially if someone gets medallion) - but they continue to play him as a hard support instead of giving him farm and XP to let him transition into an annoying semi-carry (cuirass, halberd, etc) that just will not fucking die. It seems like the smartest thing to do would be something like blink dagger into a midas and aim for a late-game win once the midas helps Leoric get to lvl 16 and get caught up on farm. Leaving Leoric as a zero-farm hero with blink into blademail, though... I can't think of anything more pointless, it's like he's trying to pretend he's Axe. Just pick Axe and build Vlad's if you want the lifesteal aura so badly.

Because people learned to play against it and games became more farm heavy and QW thrived on constant team fights? Game changes.

Yeah, Axe with Vlads is exactly the same. Except for the part where the life steal works on ranged heroes. Just a subtle difference...

People have played him as carry too. But he always ends up being underwhelming and you can keep saying pros are playing it wrong and that you know how to play it correctly but running around with Rikimaru killing supports 24/7 also works if your opponents are bad enough.

[PizzaSHARK]

Because people learned to play against it and games became more farm heavy and QW thrived on constant team fights? Game changes.

Yeah, Axe with Vlads is exactly the same. Except for the part where the life steal works on ranged heroes. Just a subtle difference...

Aside from Luna, I can't think of any ranged carries that would actually benefit from the lifesteal aura before, like, 35 minutes. And Luna won't have the attack speed to make it all that great until late game. And Luna nearly always builds HotD anyhow.

It's not my fault people are being retarded and playing Leoric wrong. Remember how Midas Crystal Maiden was a thing?

People have played him as carry too. But he always ends up being underwhelming and you can keep saying pros are playing it wrong and that you know how to play it correctly but running around with Rikimaru killing supports 24/7 also works if your opponents are bad enough.

If he's underwhelming as a carry, it's because they're playing him wrong. He has a phenomenal stun, with Phase+Drum/Yasha/SnY (pick one), he isn't especially easy to kite, and then there's that whole "free Aegis" thing. A farmed PL or AM or maybe even Lycan with Necro3 can make it harder for him to safely ult, but none of those are direct counters to him, since a BKB will block all mana burn. Nyx isn't much of a counter because Leoric doesn't generally have particularly high INT.

With just Armlet and boots he can crit for 300-400 and already be immensely hard to kill, and it just gets better from there. I'm with Lysah on this one, the best carries in the game are all Strength. Not having to spend item slots on health is just a colossal advantage.

[Deleted]

Why did QW fall off, anyway? The nerf to EMP made it less brainless to combo with Tornado, but it was basically a non-change for experienced Invoker players. Did people just remember how ridiculously good GIANT SKYLASER ION CANNON OF DOOM is?

Leoric's falling off because people are stupid and drafting him as a hard support, which is the exact opposite of what he's best at. Sven is pretty much better than Leoric as a low-farm support, too, though I doubt he'll get drafted anytime soon for that role. I don't know why, though; Warcry is OP as *fuck* if you can block or ban the AOE creep nuke heroes like Pugna and KotL. Creeps with +16 armor are basically immune to towers.

What I don't understand is that they'll draft Leoric as a support early on - which is okay, early lifesteal aura allows you to threaten an early Rosh (especially if someone gets medallion) - but they continue to play him as a hard support instead of giving him farm and XP to let him transition into an annoying semi-carry (cuirass, halberd, etc) that just will not fucking die. It seems like the smartest thing to do would be something like blink dagger into a midas and aim for a late-game win once the midas helps Leoric get to lvl 16 and get caught up on farm. Leaving Leoric as a zero-farm hero with blink into blademail, though... I can't think of anything more pointless, it's like he's trying to pretend he's Axe. Just pick Axe and build Vlad's if you want the lifesteal aura so badly.

Empire pushed forward their QE invoker(with early midas-->necro) which was very good at winning mid+killing towers+building an insane lead.

None is drafting Leoric for early Lifesteal Aura. There is only so much safe farm to be had on the map(specially in competitive), if your 4 position hero is in the position of getting farm mid game you already won the game anyway.

[Deleted]

Aside from Luna, I can't think of any ranged carries that would actually benefit from the lifesteal aura before, like, 35 minutes. And Luna won't have the attack speed to make it all that great until late game. And Luna nearly always builds HotD anyhow.

It's not my fault people are being retarded and playing Leoric wrong. Remember how Midas Crystal Maiden was a thing?

The ones who pioneered WK support were EG. Guess who they had mid? Arteezy SF or Arteezy Morph. Go figure.

Yes, Maiden Hand of Miidas was a thing then Maiden got nerfed and so did Midas and new styles developed. Congrats.

If he's underwhelming as a carry, it's because they're playing him wrong. He has a phenomenal stun, with Phase+Drum/Yasha/SnY (pick one), he isn't especially easy to kite, and then there's that whole "free Aegis" thing. A farmed PL or AM or maybe even Lycan with Necro3 can make it harder for him to safely ult, but none of those are direct counters to him, since a BKB will block all mana burn. Nyx isn't much of a counter because Leoric doesn't generally have particularly high INT.

With just Armlet and boots he can crit for 300-400 and already be immensely hard to kill, and it just gets better from there. I'm with Lysah on this one, the best carries in the game are all Strength. Not having to spend item slots on health is just a colossal advantage

What you don't get is that it's very hard to run around killing stuff with WK with just Phase Boots and Armlet if the enemy doesn't want to fight and at the same time keep up the farm with the opponent carry. WK is a slow farmer. Running around killing stuff is a very pub mentality and doesn't work nearly as well at higher levels. Armlet WK was played too by pros.

[PizzaSHARK]

Hand of Midas CM was never good. That's the point. It was stupid, it was backwards, and people did it anyway because the one pro team had a brainfart and all of the other pro teams dove forward to huff the fumes and on down the line. CM has not seen any significant nerfs in several patches; Midas saw a small nerf that didn't change much but delay the timing by another minute or so.

And there's an easy way of running around and killing people - take their towers. Either they defend the tower and you kill them, or you take the tower and gain tons of gold and gain more map control.