[Megathread] DotA 2

[Charge me Doctor]

"Who the fuck need this".

That was the most idiotic thing written in the past week mate.

There NEEDS to be a clear distinction for new players. It's slightly retarded that you're immune to spells unless its X. That you can dispel everything unless its X.

Seriously, you do think that we need to know how valve programmers call these functions which responsible for buff mechanics?

There is already a lot of information about this, dispels, purges, strong dispels, silences, mutes, there is a wiki and info available, players who don't want to know it won't know it. And making all tooltips equal to shadow form tooltip is not a great solution, that's why there is an alt button and dota wiki.

No, it's not retarded, there shouldn't be total immunity for everything. Period. It gives zero counterplay and only harms the game (playing LoL? Kayle's ult, even considering the fact that whole gaming community thinks that it's OPed, it still allows you to CC ulted target, asking for a skill that gives you immunity to all abilities is stupid)
And i think it's quite retarded to think that you can dispel everything while there is nothing saying that you dispel everything.

[minteK917]

The alt system of tooltip is already what the game needs, some of them simply needs to be adjusted/added. Rearm tooltip is a good example of a well done tooltip for an ability with many interactions. Its simple and to the point.

[Keldarin]

W

oh god I'm so mad right now, 2nd game in a row I lose with tide (I might not be the best tide but I think i did ok except from missing 2-3 ravages lel), because my carry are so bad.

That's when you start taking farm and become the carry yourself. Tidehunter is really fucking tanky, build a Shiva's Guard and a heart on him and you should be good to go. You make them go really slow and with enough mana you can pretty much just outlast them, even if your team is doing fuck all to stop them :P

[Jester Joe]

DOOMLING COURIER IS BEST COURIER.

Where did this thing even come from? I saw the $5, saw Earthshaker immortal, bought one for lols, got Skywraith immortal that I didn't even see and the Doomling.

[EqualWin]

W

That's when you start taking farm and become the carry yourself. Tidehunter is really fucking tanky, build a Shiva's Guard and a heart on him and you should be good to go. You make them go really slow and with enough mana you can pretty much just outlast them, even if your team is doing fuck all to stop them :P

somehow I ended up winning the 3rd game (which was pretty much my worst game) also the hardest to win.. we didnt a lot of aoe dmg for PL. our carry was WK and they had cancer PL... I'm happy

I love how tanky he is, his E is too op.. I felt bad for their safe lane carry. tho only one game I could "abuse" it, vs a void 1v1 ... but we lost that game because our pa preffer to focus a LS at roshan instead of kill void (he was like at 10% hp for 3-4 sec) and then he ultied. funny thing pa was killing naix that was next to void.


now I've to play Storm spirit.. fun if I snowball D:

[Jester Joe]

So far, all I know is the Skywrath Immortal changes his ult to make Swords rain down instead of beams.
Looks like Earthshakers changes Fissure, haven't actually seen it yet though.
Assuming Shadow Shaman makes people into a Sheep instead of a Chicken.

I really want to see Undying's tombstone immortal...but I already got the two I really wanted from the crate, so eh.

Now I just wish they'd let me delete the stupid boar so I can actually put my couriers on the random option...I don't want to use the boar at all.

[Keldarin]

Sounds like I don't have much of a wallet left when I get back from work...

Worst part of it is that I'm pretty happy and excited about it.

VALVe y u do dis?!

[LiiLoSNK]

My take on new immortals.

Earthshaker totem: looks like he's slamming great wall of china blocks on people
Shadow Shaman wep: turns people into sheeps, although they're more like a rams
Undying tombstone: has custom zombies with heads like the tombstone itself
Razor Helm: does nothing

Skywrath Staff

[Jester Joe]

My take on new immortals.

Earthshaker totem: looks like he's slamming great wall of china blocks on people
Shadow Shaman wep: turns people into sheeps, although they're more like a rams
Undying tombstone: has custom zombies with heads like the tombstone itself
Razor Helm: does nothing

Skywrath Staff

Personally I think the Skywrath staff has the best custom effect honestly.
Although I do like how you described the totem for Earthshaker, because that's pretty accurate, went into a bot game to check it lol

Although Razor looks like an overpowered Fly Zapper with his helm, I kinda like it.

[minteK917]

It is possible razor effect will be updated, the last batch of immortals took a few updates on effect, like the dk form.

[LiiLoSNK]

Razor helm will probably get an update. Currently it's the lowest priced new immortal on the steam market so i might just buy one in the off chance that it gets some insanely sick particle effects in few days then doubles in value.

Regardless, I'm definitely buying a doom courier when it becomes more affordable.

[Keldarin]

Razor helm will probably get an update. Currently it's the lowest priced new immortal on the steam market so i might just buy one in the off chance that it gets some insanely sick particle effects in few days then doubles in value.

Regardless, I'm definitely buying a doom courier when it becomes more affordable.

I got lucky and got the Doomling on my 3rd chest. Was planning to buy all the immortals anyways

[Drunkenvalley]

Try holding Alt when looking at tooltip.

Wow, that's helpful. /s

http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Dispel wonder why never actually linked that

Alright, did you memorize the entire thing now? ...No? Why not? Oh, because it's literally pages of just text entries that is virtually impossible to actually save to memory without being a savant? Geez, that's really helpful, thanks.

I think they (valve) do have clear destinction and logic behind all this stuff, it's just not public, because who the fuck need this players will figure this out by themselves if they want

...You don't understand that the entire point is to give the players the information they need, do you? Not even slightly.

Seriously, you do think that we need to know how valve programmers call these functions which responsible for buff mechanics?

They can and should convey the information in a readable format.

There is already a lot of information about this, dispels, purges, strong dispels, silences, mutes, there is a wiki and info available, players who don't want to know it won't know it.

You should be using wiki as a reference, not as your main tool of learning.

And making all tooltips equal to shadow form tooltip is not a great solution, that's why there is an alt button and dota wiki.

We certainly don't need tooltips like that. That's why we have defined terms to begin with. However, Dota 2 then promptly takes a shit on its own descriptions, like how Doom and Duel are both a Mute, but one is clearly not the same as the other.

No, it's not retarded, there shouldn't be total immunity for everything. Period. It gives zero counterplay and only harms the game (playing LoL? Kayle's ult, even considering the fact that whole gaming community thinks that it's OPed, it still allows you to CC ulted target, asking for a skill that gives you immunity to all abilities is stupid)
And i think it's quite retarded to think that you can dispel everything while there is nothing saying that you dispel everything.

What the fuck are you on about now? He's saying there needs to be a distinction, and you go on a bigass ramble about game balance. He talks about apples and you start whinging about oranges.

[Deleted]

Literally had no idea Euls and Tornado was a dispel, unless I am mistaking they don't actually tell you this in game, would have been useful to know - probably missed a fair amount of kills because of it :x

[Deleted]

@Drunkenvalley

I understand where you are coming from and I don't have an opinion myself but have you considered that maybe IceFrog doesn't want everything available through text? Maybe he wants the players to learn by playing and not by reading. And yes, not everything is obvious but there is nothing saying that everything should be obvious. How does a person learn that Fiend's Grip goes through Magic Immunity? By playing the game and learning from others.

You also talk about how sometimes a person won't even notice that Doom doesn't remove Static Link due to a hectic teamfight and he can go through an entire game without noticing and that's not a good learning process. Ask yourself if it is actual important information to that person if he can't feel its effect while playing the game?

People will learn. How do you think so many have done so in the past? They played the game and learnt.

[Charge me Doctor]

Wow, that's helpful. /s



Alright, did you memorize the entire thing now? ...No? Why not? Oh, because it's literally pages of just text entries that is virtually impossible to actually save to memory without being a savant? Geez, that's really helpful, thanks.



...You don't understand that the entire point is to give the players the information they need, do you? Not even slightly.



They can and should convey the information in a readable format.



You should be using wiki as a reference, not as your main tool of learning.



We certainly don't need tooltips like that. That's why we have defined terms to begin with. However, Dota 2 then promptly takes a shit on its own descriptions, like how Doom and Duel are both a Mute, but one is clearly not the same as the other.



What the fuck are you on about now? He's saying there needs to be a distinction, and you go on a bigass ramble about game balance. He talks about apples and you start whinging about oranges.

So, the green line that states that it isn't a subject to be dispelled/countered via magic immunity is not helpful?

No, i didn't, because it takes time and effort to do so, i didn't spent enough time to memorize it, but i do know what i will be able to dispel in game and what i will not. It's just experience, i can't name all skills that can be dispelled, but when i see fury swipes on my ass i do know that it won't be dispelled by D.Blade, while dust will be dispelled.

Well, you don't understand that not all game designers want players to have all information in text format (which actually makes sense, learning the game from text or learning the game from actual gameplay is different, if you learn game from text, you get your brain overwhelmed and you make mistakes, you focus on remembering what abilities do what instead of focusing on game)

They can, but the game has so many exceptions due to balance. Basically, if we return to dispel topic, you have: dispel (removes magical buffs/debuffs/slows/silences/etc), strong dispel (same but also removes stuns and usable only on allies, hero core skills are immune to this), purge (dispel with slow which weakens over time and damages illusions/summons), magic immunity (works as dispel but against both negative and positive buffs, adds magic immunity afterwards which makes you immune to shit like glimpse)

If you are interested in (advanced) mechanics of the game, you go to wiki (which is basically library of experience from other players), basic stuff is available in tutorial.

Again, it's because of balance, exceptions should be made or we will have 11 "terms" for things that function same in 90% of situations

There is distinction, it's documented, but he wants it to be available in game, on tooltip, which will make them A4 format tooltips, which is huge load for a player (original dota had this issue, especially when you played it for first time and have seen these taverns with over 9000 words of discription of skills and lore of heroes). Tolltip should have enough information (and it does) but not full information about all game mechanics and exceptions linked with this particular ability.

All of this increases differences between players, some people can't climb above 3k and blame teammates because they don't learn from their games, while others get to 6k because they actually learn from games, not from text on tooltips

[Drunkenvalley]

but have you considered that maybe IceFrog doesn't want everything available through text? Maybe he wants the players to learn by playing and not by reading. And yes, not everything is obvious but there is nothing saying that everything should be obvious. How does a person learn that Fiend's Grip goes through Magic Immunity? By playing the game and learning from others.

A huge part of game design is to explicitly remove some amount of information. However, there is a difference between non-obvious and false. Fiend's Grip has a false description because it says it's Magical. However, it bypasses Magic Immunity.

Non-obvious is creeps respawning in jungle camps if the creeps are outside of their magical zone, or that you can block them by standing in said zone when they try to spawn. However, this too actually has feedback in the form of the addition of creeps or the absence of creeps. So despite a non-obvious mechanic, it's something you could be expected to discover.

You also talk about how sometimes a person won't even notice that Doom doesn't remove Static Link due to a hectic teamfight and he can go through an entire game without noticing and that's not a good learning process. Ask yourself if it is actual important information to that person if he can't feel its effect while playing the game?

People will learn. How do you think so many have done so in the past? They played the game and learnt.

I can concede to that. I do think it's important to receive good feedback, because with how ie Doom you don't know if you just saved your team from annihilation or if it doesn't do anything in this case, because... how do you tell? Either they don't do anything, or they don't do anything.

But to be fair, I should be better at checking buffs after Dooming someone. I would've known quickly that Static Link was still up from the first Doom onwards by just checking his buffs.

So, the green line that states that it isn't a subject to be dispelled/countered via magic immunity is not helpful?

There's only the fact that it goes through BKB. Seeing that you can clearly see the big, blue link after they BKB this is the kind of thing they didn't actually need to put in there to start with, because it's information you can naturally discover with good feedback. Similarly, you'll realize right away after using Static Link on someone that tries to escape by invis that, well, it doesn't break Static Link.

And that's good feedback. The game has a big, blue line that persists until they get out of range. Both you and your opponents discover immediately whether Static Link is broken by BKB or invis, because if it breaks the blue line that's it, it's gone, but if it doesn't you know it didn't work.

Well, you don't understand that not all game designers want players to have all information in text format

Don't try and make shit up. I've never said I wanted it in text format. I've said readable format. That does not literally mean text. It can be good visual feedback when the abilities are interacting with one another, ie you have an icon over your head when Fury Swipes is on you, and if you Purge yourself... it stays. That's good feedback. The game tells you it didn't give a fuck.

They can, but the game has so many exceptions due to balance. Basically, if we return to dispel topic, you have: dispel (removes magical buffs/debuffs/slows/silences/etc), strong dispel (same but also removes stuns and usable only on allies, hero core skills are immune to this), purge (dispel with slow which weakens over time and damages illusions/summons), magic immunity (works as dispel but against both negative and positive buffs, adds magic immunity afterwards which makes you immune to shit like glimpse)

If you are interested in (advanced) mechanics of the game, you go to wiki (which is basically library of experience from other players), basic stuff is available in tutorial.

This is all information you could convey easily though, you know. For example, all Avatar state buffs could be visually different on your buffbar, or Auras could remove the green border to show its "Passive" effect. (Debuffs would presumably retain red border, even if from 'passive' sources like AC.)

We could dramatically reduce the "complexity" of the "advanced" mechanics by simply adding better icons. It would dramatically reduce the confusion if Cleave was its own damage type for one too, because there are 4 abilities that cleave, yeah? But no, it's "Pure", except it's not because it doesn't behave like Pure anyway, etc.

Again, it's because of balance, exceptions should be made or we will have 11 "terms" for things that function same in 90% of situations

And exceptions are fine. But Dota 2 has a lot of things that are grouped up wrongly, which is, well, wrong.

There is distinction, it's documented, but he wants it to be available in game, on tooltip, which will make them A4 format tooltips,

I've told you at least once already that I explicitly don't want big tooltips. Stop making up bullshit.

[Charge me Doctor]

Why do you need to check buffs on Razor after dooming him? Static link has an on-hero indication of static in the hands of Razor.

You can also see Fiends Grip going through BKB, i see no issue here.

"Avatar state buffs" (i don't really understand how you are able to distinguish "Avatar state" from regular shapeshift tho) have exact same thing as static link and BKB or D.Blade and Fury swipes, you try to dispel it, it doesn't work because Sven is still red.
The purpose or green and red borders is to show if it's negative or positive buff, not to indicate "type" of the buff.
No, seriously, i don't get what "avatar state buffs" you mean, isn't BKB on use effect called "avatar"? Because i remember Naix having an "for Khaz modan!" shout when you used his ult (Rage, same as BKB, even had the big fading away mountain king animation behind), i always associated avatar with BKB and his ult.

And cleave doesn't deal pure damage, and it isn't considered as pure, pure damage is stopped by being magic immune while cleave damage is stopped by being ethereal, why the hell you think it's "pure"? It's already has its own damage type, "cleave". It doesn't care about your armour (except armour type iirc) and it doesn't bring any orb effects with it.

And what things in your opinion is grouped up "wrongly"?

[Drunkenvalley]

Why do you need to check buffs on Razor after dooming him? Static link has an on-hero indication of static in the hands of Razor.

He has a slight blue glow from his hands. I didn't even know it existed, because... how the hell do you even see that? He's a hero dressed in blue who has a bunch of lightning effects already, especially with his legs being literally lightning, and you think a soft, blue glow on his already blue hands is going to get noticed ever? It's virtually indistinguishable.

You can also see Fiends Grip going through BKB, i see no issue here.

You have no natural way of realizing that you can target Fiend's Grip on BKB'd targets though. There's no indication, even though there's a pretty sizable group of abilities in the game that already behave similarly. You'd think they could fit these abilities into a distinguishable group, and they kind of do in the sense that ults almost always have such exceptions with multiple components abilities, but there's no actual visual indicator anywhere.

"Avatar state buffs" (i don't really understand how you are able to distinguish "Avatar state" from regular shapeshift tho) have exact same thing as static link and BKB or D.Blade and Fury swipes, you try to dispel it, it doesn't work because Sven is still red.

I mention them because it creates a line of comparison. One of the easiest ways of learning is to remove the alien element by calling it for what it is. The game fails to do this with Magic Immunity, because some sources can and some sources can't be dispelled, entirely because of how they're implemented.

The purpose or green and red borders is to show if it's negative or positive buff, not to indicate "type" of the buff.

No shit, Sherlock. That's what I want changed to better reflect and make it easier to learn. Being able to distinguish buffs better makes it significantly less confusing.

No, seriously, i don't get what "avatar state buffs" you mean, isn't BKB on use effect called "avatar"? Because i remember Naix having an "for Khaz modan!" shout when you used his ult (Rage, same as BKB, even had the big fading away mountain king animation behind), i always associated avatar with BKB and his ult.

Originally Avatar in WC3 did a bunch of things, but it also gave Magic Immunity. So that's the baseline for pretty much every real BKB effect. Then there are some that give Magic Immunity in Dota, but aren't Avatar buffs. Juggernaught's spin gives you magic immunity, but Doom can purge it. Similarly, Omniknight's Repel can also be purged.

And cleave doesn't deal pure damage, and it isn't considered as pure, pure damage is stopped by being magic immune while cleave damage is stopped by being ethereal, why the hell you think it's "pure"? It's already has its own damage type, "cleave". It doesn't care about your armour (except armour type iirc) and it doesn't bring any orb effects with it.

Yeah, that's kinda the problem with Cleave. It behaves like its own damage type, but it's not really considered a damage type. Now Critical Strike and Bash is similar in being a mechanic, not damage type, but those implement existing behaviors rather than completely reinvent its own thing.

The reason I call it "Pure damage" in this case is because Pure damage is frankly the closest thing, and it's also a parallel I see being thrown around whenever the question of "What damage type is Cleave?" or similar pops up.

Oh, by the way, Damage Block (Stout Shield, PMS, Vanguard) works against Cleave. That's kinda why I want Cleave abilities to be properly grouped up in-game under a tooltip or similar that you can read.

And what things in your opinion is grouped up "wrongly"?

1. Any ability that is only partially blocked by Magic Immunity, but whose tooltips don't reflect this should be given its own notation. Examples are abilities that say they're Magical damage, which is strictly speaking true, but it has no indication you can even target the rest of the ability onto someone who is immune.
   
   Now of course you could say "Well, d'uh, it strictly speaking doesn't tell you you can't do that", but... literally every other ability does. Vengeful Spirit's stun can't be targeted onto Magic Immune targets.
   
2. Cleave. It should be an actual damage type in Dota 2. While you have Cleave available, I sincerely believe your actual damage type should visually change so you can read the tooltip on Cleave. This reduces the need for excessive tooltips in all abilities that cause Cleave, while giving players opportunity to in-game read up on what Cleave does and does not do.
   
3. Abilities that are not dispellable should share a unique border instead of normal red/green one. I just call these Avatar buffs for the sake of consistency here.
   
4. Auras should have unique border. (Or rather no border at all, similar to how the abilities appear in your abilities list in Dota 1.) If it provides an aura that affects enemies (Assault Cuirass being what comes to mind) the debuff icon should itself be different from the friendly aura icon.

Dota 2 abilities should be viewed as components based. If we can break down what components an ability is constructed from and convey that information to players that suddenly makes the game way easier to figure out. And we don't need a lot of space to convey it. We can do it using existing methods.

Examples:

Ensnare Damage: Physical Interrupts the target and traps them in place, preventing movement or blinking. Duration: 2/3/4/5 14 90 / 100 / 110 / 120

Reaper's Scythe Ability: Target Unit Affects: Enemy Heroes Damage: Magical Disable: Universal Stuns the target enemy hero, then deals damage based on how much life it is missing. Heroes killed by Reaper's Scythe take 30% longer to respawn. Upgradable by Aghanim's Scepter. 100/85/70 175/340/500

Curse of Avernus Ability: Passive Damage: Physical Abaddon strikes an enemy with chilling power on each attack, slowing them and causing all units who attack the slowed enemy to gain increased movement speed, along with faster attack speed, for a limited time. Debuff duration: 2.5 Buff duration: 4.5 Movement slow: 5/10/15/20% Attack slow: 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 Move speed bonus: 15% Attack speed bonus: 10/20/30/40

Do you call that 'A4 format tooltips'? That I added literally 1 line in this case?

[Deleted]

A huge part of game design is to explicitly remove some amount of information. However, there is a difference between non-obvious and false. Fiend's Grip has a false description because it says it's Magical. However, it bypasses Magic Immunity.

Doesn't Fiend's Grip do zero damage to magic immune targets which means its magical damage doesn't go through Magic Immunity? I don't think a spell in itself can be of "Magical" type but the damage the spell does can be Magical.