Shaman lvl 90 talents

[Omanley]

Figured I'd post this here, just to explain how the pet bar situation works for Enhance and pet elementals, Feral spirits no longer have a pet bar....

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4246995215

Holy fucking shit. That sounds pretty damn awesome actually.
-I guess I would've hoped for Spirit Hunt to be 1 min cooldown at the least, but at least we can now use it outside of Feral Spirits
(never mind that, unleashed fury (frostbrand) gives us a 4second version of it every 15 seconds (though w/o snare break))

(Unlinking of active utility abilities from Feral Spirits is among those things i've screamed for forever, so there's some damn feeling of accomplishment right here)

-Capacitor Totem appears to be talented Fire Nova Totem mkII, with a longer cooldown, but also duration. I was sad about the original go w/o compensation and have hoped for a long duration stun at some point. Hard to say wether I'd hope more for a single target stun which is hardly counterable, or an aoe stun which is destroyable. I hope it's not one-shotable (5hp) though. DEFINATELY happy though if that makes it into live.
In bg/arena, clever setup with allies will be able to create a window in which a Capacitor Totem may be placed safely (esp when glyphed).

Again, a decent stun is among the things I've asked for often, big accomplishment for me.

- Searing Flames applied by Fire Elemental is an improvement in pve (I guess), since you'll be able to order it around, which doesn't hold true for Searing Totem. In pvp, it may not be as relevant, since unleashed fury likely would take its place, esp for enh

- Losing melee hit isn't that big a loss I think, since it wasn't required for capping anyways. Being able to cap spells at melee(specials) hitcap would safe enh on lvl85
something around ~710 or so hitrating, which is more than double as much expertise rating we'll have to get additional with ur gone.

As for glyphs: I'm not to excited about most of them. I guess the MSW and Feral Spirit one is interesting. And I guess Ghost Wolf and Purge will be very important as well. That's for enh pvp though. As for pve I haven't noticed anything interesting. And what about the LL glyph? Is that for real? Removal of the aoe mechanic? Sounds like they're making fun of us.


Overall I feel I've seen more shaman pvp development in your post protoman then in the last 4 years or so in patches (from a pvp perspective anyways)

edit: I wonder why they put a rockbiter version into unleashed fury when they said they're taking RB out. Also am I the only one recognising that the ultimate talent doesn't remove the cooldown anymore? And the glyhp wont be worth taken either, since duration is reduced as well (in addition to cooldown).

[Novamourne]

I hate to break it to you, but you were already playing a pet class except most of your pets:

A. Can't move
B. Require constant replacement
C. The ones that can move derp around and attack the worst possible target or nothing at all

I couldn't agree with you more. If you think we're *turning into* a pet class then you don't realize our dps is completely dependent on that elemental and how it's used in today's expansion.

[Zhulthar]

I really hope this will be much like a water elem pet. Cant wait to see what it ACTUALLY will be like at 90, not just on the beta but the change from beta to live aswell. yay!

[Protoman]

Again, a decent stun is among the things I've asked for often, big accomplishment for me.

- Searing Flames applied by Fire Elemental is an improvement in pve (I guess), since you'll be able to order it around, which doesn't hold true for Searing Totem. In pvp, it may not be as relevant, since unleashed fury likely would take its place, esp for enh

- Losing melee hit isn't that big a loss I think, since it wasn't required for capping anyways. Being able to cap spells at melee(specials) hitcap would safe enh on lvl85
something around ~710 or so hitrating, which is more than double as much expertise rating we'll have to get additional with ur gone.

As for glyphs: I'm not to excited about most of them. I guess the MSW and Feral Spirit one is interesting. And I guess Ghost Wolf and Purge will be very important as well. That's for enh pvp though. As for pve I haven't noticed anything interesting. And what about the LL glyph? Is that for real? Removal of the aoe mechanic? Sounds like they're making fun of us.


Overall I feel I've seen more shaman pvp development in your post protoman then in the last 4 years or so in patches (from a pvp perspective anyways)

edit: I wonder why they put a rockbiter version into unleashed fury when they said they're taking RB out. Also am I the only one recognising that the ultimate talent doesn't remove the cooldown anymore? And the glyhp wont be worth taken either, since duration is reduced as well (in addition to cooldown).

Yea, some pretty nice changes overall. Def some much needed changes, like the stun and spirit walk baseline. For PVP we could use more though, especially concerning Frostbrand. It should also provide 5-7% spell damage, and the 40% bonus LL damage on FT should be removed and baked into the base spell. That would still make FB tradeoff some DPS for a snare, but not such a huge loss in damage, cause right now it looks like we will still be using FT on offhand. I like the FB mini sprint though. And I hope with feral spirit as gaurdians now they will improve guardian targeting to be alot more accurate, precise, reliable.

SF w/ FET is an improvement, would like to still see the whole mechanic reword to be based off melee attacks or flame shock though.....Blizz is too damn stubborn to stick to that stupid totem, no other class has their core mechanic rely on something so immobile and unreliable.

Glyphs, yea we get some good healing glyphs for enhance w/ FS and MW. Otherwise, nothing really for DPS. And I think the LL glyph is pretty funny, I guess its for when you don't want to have splash aoe damage, or for PVP with controlled CC.....it better be a minor glyph tho.

RB I'm glad they left in, the unleash effect might be pretty useful for PVP.

I couldn't agree with you more. If you think we're *turning into* a pet class then you don't realize our dps is completely dependent on that elemental and how it's used in today's expansion.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Shaman are not a pet class. Just cause we have a DPS cd in the form of a pet, does not make us a pet class. And Elemental DPS is not "completely dependant" on the fire ele, it takes up like <10% of their overall DPS.

[Radux]

Yea, some pretty nice changes overall. Def some much needed changes, like the stun and spirit walk baseline. For PVP we could use more though, especially concerning Frostbrand. It should also provide 5-7% spell damage, and the 40% bonus LL damage on FT should be removed and baked into the base spell. That would still make FB tradeoff some DPS for a snare, but not such a huge loss in damage, cause right now it looks like we will still be using FT on offhand. I like the FB mini sprint though.

Right now the FB vs FT is a good trade off:
- FB = Big-ish DMG proc + Snare
- FT = SP buff + Medium DMG proc + LL buff

I'll agree with the LL part (removing that part from FT), but in both situations now you have some damage, but you remove some passive spell damage for a snare. That's a good tradeoff.

The only way that it would be a fair trade off for the situation you're proposing (7% on FB) would be if the snare did 0 damage. Otherwise no one would ever use FT -- it would just be far superior to use FB since it would basically do the same thing as FT but have the extra utility of a snare.

[Omanley]

Yes. The FT unleash fury thingy being rather unimpressive for enh places even more ephasisis on FB as a pvp imbue, which now would offer a melee snare proc, a ranged snare and a short duration sprint.

I seriously hope they dont intend to make this decission between the two imbues even harder for enh, as we would lose more whichever we took.

There's also the question wether or not elemental blast would be affected by MSW, which would probably make it relevant for enh pve (though there we also have fire ele).

I get the impression for enh pve, it will come down to a little dps calculation session and that'll decide what we take (until changing gear changes that prio). Kinda defeats the purpose of MoP talents if you ask me, but oh well.

I think enh pvp might use fb/ft in MoP. While the FT Unleash Fury isn't exactly impressive for enh, the same holds true for the wf one.
The most irritating thing is rockbiter though. A passive dmg absorb through Rockbiter itself, with another one for 5 seconds every 15 seconds sounds just to powerful defensive-wise. I dont want to imbue-dance all the time though just for some additional survivability.

LL glyph in pvp i cant imagine it. After all, doesn't LL not spread flame shocks to crowd controlled enemies? And if you dont want to actually take them out, simply dont use Fire Nova.

[Deleted]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Shaman are not a pet class. Just cause we have a DPS cd in the form of a pet, does not make us a pet class. And Elemental DPS is not "completely dependant" on the fire ele, it takes up like <10% of their overall DPS.

What are the other totems in your opinion?

[Omanley]

Right now the FB vs FT is a good trade off:
- FB = Big-ish DMG proc + Snare
- FT = SP buff + Medium DMG proc + LL buff

I'll agree with the LL part (removing that part from FT), but in both situations now you have some damage, but you remove some passive spell damage for a snare. That's a good tradeoff.

The only way that it would be a fair trade off for the situation you're proposing (7% on FB) would be if the snare did 0 damage. Otherwise no one would ever use FT -- it would just be far superior to use FB since it would basically do the same thing as FT but have the extra utility of a snare.

Well, FT does overall more damage since it's "proc" is guaranteed. FB has only a ~40% or so proc chance. Also Unleash Elements/Fury brings straight up extra damage (instant fire damage, next fire spell modifier, next lightning bolt modifier)

7% less overal magical damage is a big blow delt to damage. The only dmg sources unaffected are auto-hit, wf and stormstrike. During ascendence, it would be only wf unaffected by havinf FB instead of FT active.

FT is clearly superior in pve. It makes perfect sense for me to make FB clearly superior in pvp. However, losing this much damage might even make FT overall superior. FB is currently only used by enhance, even by them only in pvp and even there only if you dont have a partner who can fill those utility gaps to the biggest degree.

FB is a extremely neache ability. I dont think there's anything wrong in making it clearly better in pvp. If not 7%, then maybe 5%? If you count it all together, FT would still bring a couple hundreds of dps more surely.

[Ishtara]

As resto, none of our lvl 90 talents seem as useful for healing as they do for dps.

I wish they would modify our Unleash Elements to be an extra smart heal instead of automatically healing the shaman. Or add a minor glyph to allow us to change it.

Or perhaps somehow adding the option for our earth elemental's Harden Skin ability to be activated on our current friendly target when we use the spell.

[Radux]

Well, FT does overall more damage since it's "proc" is guaranteed. FB has only a ~40% or so proc chance. Also Unleash Elements/Fury brings straight up extra damage (instant fire damage, next fire spell modifier, next lightning bolt modifier)

7% less overal magical damage is a big blow delt to damage. The only dmg sources unaffected are auto-hit, wf and stormstrike. During ascendence, it would be only wf unaffected by havinf FB instead of FT active.

FT is clearly superior in pve. It makes perfect sense for me to make FB clearly superior in pvp. However, losing this much damage might even make FT overall superior. FB is currently only used by enhance, even by them only in pvp and even there only if you dont have a partner who can fill those utility gaps to the biggest degree.

FB is a extremely neache ability. I dont think there's anything wrong in making it clearly better in pvp. If not 7%, then maybe 5%? If you count it all together, FT would still bring a couple hundreds of dps more surely.

Sorry you guys have only been talking about PvP really, so I didn't feel the need to clarify that much. But I guess I should have. My point was that if Protoman's suggestion went through, even with the UE/UF effects, I doubt it could outweigh the utility FB offers (this is assuming you're interchanging FB and FT -- always keeping WF around).

[Northy]

I'm simply counting down the days until someone does the math on the Shaman talents for each spec (especially the level 90 talents).

[Radux]

I'm simply counting down the days until someone does the math on the Shaman talents for each spec (especially the level 90 talents).

I don't think the math will be quite that simple.

Different talents will probably change in value based on stat values and vice-versa.

Example:
Elemental Mastery would likely increase the Value of Mastery/Crit quite a bit while active, while Haste doesn't get as much benefit.
Echo of the Elements will probably benefit from Haste way more than the other talents in the Tier.

Stat values are very likely going to change based on your build.

[Protoman]

Right now the FB vs FT is a good trade off:
- FB = Big-ish DMG proc + Snare
- FT = SP buff + Medium DMG proc + LL buff

I'll agree with the LL part (removing that part from FT), but in both situations now you have some damage, but you remove some passive spell damage for a snare. That's a good tradeoff.

The only way that it would be a fair trade off for the situation you're proposing (7% on FB) would be if the snare did 0 damage. Otherwise no one would ever use FT -- it would just be far superior to use FB since it would basically do the same thing as FT but have the extra utility of a snare.

Sorry you guys have only been talking about PvP really, so I didn't feel the need to clarify that much. But I guess I should have. My point was that if Protoman's suggestion went through, even with the UE/UF effects, I doubt it could outweigh the utility FB offers (this is assuming you're interchanging FB and FT -- always keeping WF around).

Do you mean no one would ever use FT in PVP? or PVE?

Well, the whole idea in PVP is to encourage Enhance to use the WF/FB setup, which we currently don't do. The changes I suggested would definitely do that. WF/FB would still be less DPS then WF/FT, so the optimal setup in PVE will still be WF/FT, esp with the new unleash effects.

You could make it 5% bonus spell damage instead of 7% for FB, and I'm pretty sure the dps generated thru the melee procs is still less for FB then FT. So you would still be trading higher DPS for higher control, it just wouldn't be as dramatic as it is now.

There's also the question wether or not elemental blast would be affected by MSW, which would probably make it relevant for enh pve (though there we also have fire ele).

I tried to find an answer for this, so far no one has given me any feedback in the game, it hasn't been specifically added into MW5 yet, just says "nature spells". But the Ele blast spell has all 3 schools listed, fire frost and nature.....so I'm guessing just like frostflamebolt or something it counts as all 3, and if interrupted locked out of all 3, so hopefully it counts as a nature spell that we can cast instantly with MW5.

What are the other totems in your opinion?

I'm not sure what you are asking here, what are the Elemental totems? One is a DPS cd, the other is a defensive/tank/survival cd. Even with the talents, they are still a dps and defensive cd, just supercharged. We are not a pet class that is for sure, we micromanage totems, not a pet. The pet classes/specs are: all hunters, all locks, unholy dks, frost mages. And thats it.

[reyareya]

so i cant stand to lurk in the forums anymore. ive read through all 16 pages and am i the only one seeing people that play ele shams NOT include having the synergy with ascendance?
my point for this post will be on talents and ascendance but please dont bash on me if something i even said step on your little toe.

IMO, supercharge UE will be what im taking for tier6. if you think about it, it is 10 seconds of another increase of 25% (making it 275% i believe) for a NO COOL DOWN lvb followed by that last 3-4 seconds of 250% lvb. in case you're not sure, im talking about using Ascendance then using supercharge UE for burst fights.

i would rather drop a FE every 5minutes since we've always been dropping ST every minute and FET for dps boost during procs+pot since cata anyway. plus we are already ALWAYS given a 10% SP buff, if you're lazy you can forego the red totems that gives you DPS increase.

Also, tier 6 talents for FE+EE being pets will most likely be for enhancement. why? enhancement are losing their spiritwolves as pets! plus they changed the talent to FET being able to apply Searing Flames.

Restos are likely to get the supercharge too. UE, nature's swiftness, and instant 200% heal (what if its a crit? 100k++ healing?_?_?_?)

anyway im hoping the last talent (elemental cone) would be a aoe heal+damage spell. so resto could probably pick it up for stacked fights too.



im not saying ele shams should all pick the supercharge, but what all eleshams have been doing are already reapplying ST (10% SP buff) every 1min and dropping FET only when procs+pot. so why not continue doing it? unless you're sick of pressing the same 5-6 buttons and want to press additional 2-3 buttons the FE pet is giving. as for me, i'd rather just continue doing what we do best and add a new 2min spell + UE whenever off cd for extra LB and LVB. (not the forget that LAVA SURGE IS NOW T12 4PC ITSELF)




oh and also we're forgetting the synergies NEW TOTEMS are giving. capacitor + totem projection?

[marukale]

Restos are likely to get the supercharge too. UE, nature's swiftness, and instant 200% heal (what if its a crit? 100k++ healing?_?_?_?)

For me the UE buff doesn't seem exciting. Nature's swiftness is used to stop someone from dying, its rare to use it because someone needs to be topped off or in a movement phase where our instants don't cut it, so as long as it does a decent amount of healing, which it does without the talent, then it does exactly what it needs to.

Generally the last tier looks a little disappointing from a resto point of view, but then again all we have are rough descriptions of talents which may just be placeholders. I'm hoping that the final tier is:
1) All three are exciting talents (not just a buff an ability but actually adds or changes an ability)
2) Contains competitive choices for all 3 specs

They don't seem to be there yet

[smelltheglove]

if you think about it, it is 10 seconds of another increase of 25% (making it 275% i believe) for a NO COOL DOWN lvb followed by that last 3-4 seconds of 250% lvb. in case you're not sure, im talking about using Ascendance then using supercharge UE for burst fights.

this had occurred to me. it was countered for me by:
1: the channeling 5% from elemental
2: haste cooldowns + ascendance is already a LOT of burst, im concerned about threat issues similar to warriors during their burst
3: thinking elemental might help even out sustained damage instead of pure burst and then chill waiting on the next ascendance cd. this assumes of course that elemental would be up full time, which it now looks as though it might not be

[Deleted]

this had occurred to me. it was countered for me by:
1: the channeling 5% from elemental
2: haste cooldowns + ascendance is already a LOT of burst, im concerned about threat issues similar to warriors during their burst
3: thinking elemental might help even out sustained damage instead of pure burst and then chill waiting on the next ascendance cd. this assumes of course that elemental would be up full time, which it now looks as though it might not be

I think the elemental will do better if you place its DoT on first and then start its channel rather than only getting it to channel. But yeah, Elemental Mastery+Pot+Ascendance+UE is a tonne of burst. In PvE swap out the EM for BL and take EotE for even more burst, and in PvP take LvB glyph and you don't even need to have FS up!

Too bad can't have Pet + UE, all that DPS!

[PsyBomb]

I am personally not at all concerned about threat, not unless MoP bosses are WAY harsher on testing tank defensive skills then they have been. With the tanking model change to active ability use on-demand, and generating their power through offensive ability use, combined with their amplified threat...

Well, as great as our burst is going to be, I don't see it being over 6.5 or 7 times that of the tanks (remember, they have x5 threat AND we have to break that times 1.3). That's nothing against us, it's a fact of the system that any well-played tank is going to be doing greater than 20% of our damage out in all but the strangest or most stressful of circumstances.

[Deleted]

I am personally not at all concerned about threat, not unless MoP bosses are WAY harsher on testing tank defensive skills then they have been. With the tanking model change to active ability use on-demand, and generating their power through offensive ability use, combined with their amplified threat...

Well, as great as our burst is going to be, I don't see it being over 6.5 or 7 times that of the tanks (remember, they have x5 threat AND we have to break that times 1.3). That's nothing against us, it's a fact of the system that any well-played tank is going to be doing greater than 20% of our damage out in all but the strangest or most stressful of circumstances.

I agree. Blizzard have all but said they want to remove threat. The only reason its in the game at all is to give tanks a tiny extra challenge for picking up streams of adds and to give a way to pick up things. They could make it so that Taunt had no GCD and no CD and they just had to spam taunt on everything and if you taunt something it always hits you, but that seems a bit clunky. Even the streams of adds situation doesn't exist anymore for warriors with their banner.

We shouldn't need to worry about threat at all. DKs have an even more threat generating Glyph of Dancing Rune weapon if threat really is still an issue - which I don't see it being outside of 5 mans - Warriors have Avatar/Shockwave for threat, Paladins have Execution Sentence for boss threat and Wings, Bears have got Beserk. Atleast till the end of Mists I dont see threat being an issue outside of trash pulls on 5 mans when the tank has far less gear than a DPS.

[Deleted]

IMO, supercharge UE will be what im taking for tier6. if you think about it, it is 10 seconds of another increase of 25% (making it 275% i believe) for a NO COOL DOWN lvb followed by that last 3-4 seconds of 250% lvb. in case you're not sure, im talking about using Ascendance then using supercharge UE for burst fights.

Just remember that Blizz removed Lava Burst from Shamanism outherwise all you said would be too much OP indeed Imho they want to make LvB to do slightly more dmg than LB but with 100% chance to crit. Im fine with that model.

Also, tier 6 talents for FE+EE being pets will most likely be for enhancement. why? enhancement are losing their spiritwolves as pets! plus they changed the talent to FET being able to apply Searing Flames.

No, they made wolves guardians because it wouldnt be possible to drop out both (Wolves+Elementals) at once. And since they want to make all groups of talents to be equal and usefull in some way for all specs it just wouldnt match their current goals. I hope they succeed in it and every player will be able to pick whatever T6 talent they want depending on their playstyle. Ofc strictly min/max players will be forced to choose talents because of minimal (but still present) difference as they allways does no matter if they like it or not. Hopefully, the difference will be so small that we will be able to switch talents depending on encounter mechanics and needs.