[OFFICIAL] MoP Beta Build Changes Discussion Thread

[Kenai]

I really enjoyed T11, granted I didn't really attempt much of the HM in T11, but I didn't really feel lacking at that time. I kept up with our Pally, if anything our Druid was the one having issues in T11.

The funny thing is, they were struggling in Tier 11 along with Shaman. It was polarizing. That same patch that brought the MTT nerf also brought Tranq down to 3 min from 8, which was a pretty big boost to Druid HPS. Their HPS was already fine in Tier 11 (they wanted utility iirc), but with that and the heavy amount of movement in FL affecting them very little, their better at the time Harmony mastery and their near endless mana, they ended up top HPS on most fights by a fairly wide margin. Even the worst fight for them that tier (Baleroc, with no AoE damage and heavy spike damage) they were 3rd in HPS.

[Deleted]

Hm...i`ve read, that Mana Tide is weak....and believe me i didnt think you`re lying....but perhaps a bit exaggerated

Never thought, that it`s THAT weak....gave me about ~20k (lvl 90 pvp-epic set....forged to spirit)...am i right?
I know, that you cant compare it with Divine Plea or something, cause it gives not only you mana...but that is realy ridicolous.

Should give it a 2min or 90sek cooldown or something...cause so it nearly makes no sense...not only from the point of view from a shaman player .

I`m a bit nervous about the CotE chance (i understand their arguments to make all 3 talents equal....but hope they maintain the idea, that resto`s can reset their heal-totems and make it spec-specific) and the comment about the Riptide glyph ("If every shaman will take it...we will nerf it" or something)...gogo! Everybody take of the glyph!!^^.....

[Kenai]

Hm...i`ve read, that Mana Tide is weak....and believe me i didnt think you`re lying....but perhaps a bit exaggerated

Never thought, that it`s THAT weak....gave me about ~20k (lvl 90 pvp-epic set....forged to spirit)...am i right?
I know, that you cant compare it with Divine Plea or something, cause it gives not only you mana...but that is realy ridicolous.

Should give it a 2min or 90sek cooldown or something...cause so it nearly makes no sense...not only from the point of view from a shaman player .

"Weak" and "heavily nerfed" are two different things. Pre-nerf, if I lined up my Spirit trinkets correctly, I could get over 80% of my mana back, and quite a bit for other healers as well. I did think that was quite overpowered and I felt a nerf was justified, but it was also our "personal" CD, and we had some of the worst mana regen in the game when it was gone. It's a bit funny now, since we were so sure they'd realize how big of a blow that was to us, and so sure they'd compensate for it elsewhere, but no. Like I said, I would far prefer something to nothing.

I'd also like to point out that a Shaman gains far more mana from TC in DS than they did from MTT pre-nerf.

[Grubjuice]

Personally i would prefer if MTT has a greater selfish bonus. I would like to see it return mana to the caster similar to Shadowfiend (a good amount) and mana to the party similar to Hymn of Hope (a minor amount).

[Daws001]

What's the verdict on Healing Surge for Resto? Are we actually going to want to use it in MoP? I can't remember the last time I used it on live.

A thought popped in my head, assuming HS is still in bad shape, that what if Tidal Waves made it instant cast...essentially giving us a Holy Shock/Serenity/Swiftmend style heal. Maybe it's already expensive enough to keep us from abusing it -or- using it would just consume all charges of TW. I don't know.

Just curious how Healing Surge is faring.

[Radux]

Healing Surge is considerably better on beta than it is on live.

DPS don't really have a choice but to use it, but I could see situations where Restoration would want to use it as well.

[Grubjuice]

Healing Surge is considerably better on beta than it is on live.

DPS don't really have a choice but to use it, but I could see situations where Restoration would want to use it as well.

how is HS different? is it bigger? more efficient? faster?
where would you guess it fits in now with HW and GHW?

[Radux]

how is HS different? is it bigger? more efficient? faster?
where would you guess it fits in now with HW and GHW?

It just has a lot more throughput.

I'll post some basic numbers in a bit with a comparison. Just let me put it together.

[Deleted]

how is HS different? is it bigger? more efficient? faster?
where would you guess it fits in now with HW and GHW?

Same cast speed. Same mana cost I believe. But put it this way. On live, on my shaman in my sig (397ilvl, fully enchanted and gemmed) with no buffs, my Healing Surge hits for 9k non crits. On beta, with a 85 premade in 377ilvl, no gems/enchants and just the elemental spec, it hits for 21k non crits. Its effectiveness as a a heal is pretty much doubled.

[Daws001]

Well, that's good news. It definitely has legs on its own with the buff, but I wonder how it fares under Tidal Waves (vs GHW).

I'll post some basic numbers in a bit with a comparison. Just let me put it together.

Awesome, thank you.

[Radux]

Like I mentioned earlier. Here are some really basic numbers on HW/GHW/HS.
Note on things not included:
- 0 Crit scaling at all aside from HS + TW (this will improve HPS and HPM scaling on all counts)
- 0 Haste. This improves HPS
- 0 Mastery. Kind of irrelevant unless we're talking specific health pools
- Resurgence. This improves HPM greatly (much more with GHW/HW, I think).
- Purification. Would improve both HPS and HPM.
- Ancestral Awakening. Would improve HPS/HPM with Crit scaling.

Anyway, without further delay:
Base Mana: 60,000
Assume - 10,000 SP (low) and 20,000 SP (high)

Mana Cost:
HW Mana - 5940
HS Mana - 18960
GHW Mana - 21780

Heal Amount:
HW Heal (low) - 15904
HW Heal (high) - 23464
HS Heal (low) - 23870
HS Heal (low + TW) - 31031
HS Heal (high) - 35220
HS Heal (high + TW) - 45786
GHW Heal (low) - 28950
GHW Heal (high) - 42720

Cast Times:
HW Cast Time - 2.5
HW Cast Time (TW) - 1.7
HS Cast Time - 1.5
GHW Cast Time - 2.5
GHW Cast Time (TW) - 1.7

HPM:
HW (low) - 2.677
HW (high) - 3.950
HS (low) - 1.259
HS (low + TW) - 1.637
HS (high) - 1.858
HS (high + TW) - 2.415
GHW (low) - 1.329
GHW (high) - 1.961

HPS:
HW (low) - 6361.6
HW (low + TW) - 9355.294
HW (high) - 9385.6
HW (high + TW) - 13802.353
HS (low) - 15913.333
HS (low + TW) - 20687.333
HS (high) - 23480
HS (high + TW) - 30524
GHW (low) - 11580
GHW (low + TW) - 17029.412
GHW (high) - 17088
GHW (high + TW) - 25129.412

[Sarevokcz]

so if im reading it correctly, HS is superior to GHW in every aspect under TW?

Now, what are the chances HS wont get nerf like it did during Cata?

[Radux]

so if im reading it correctly, HS is superior to GHW in every aspect under TW?

Now, what are the chances HS wont get nerf like it did during Cata?

It's very possible.
The problem with the math above is the exclusion of Crit scaling, AA, and Resurgence.

I guess I could toss together a spreadsheet really quickly (ha. quickly) and make a better comparison, but it's mostly just supposed to show really basic SP scaling of the spells. HS (under TW) sort of skews the results a little since GHW/HW don't get any crit in this.

Meh. I'll dabble a little bit in a spreadsheet and see if it changes anything.

[Wataurenyew]

So looking at the HPM and HPS numbers, is it looking like we'd likely use HS over GHW at least for the first tier of MOP?

[Radux]

So looking at the HPM and HPS numbers, is it looking like we'd likely use HS over GHW at least for the first tier of MOP?

Again, it's possible.

It's not meant to be the end-all-be-all show of which is better. There are a lot of crucial bits of information missing that will influence the results. I'm tinkering around with more numbers to see how it influences things.

[mrinvisable2]

HS is ok for dps specs and amazing to resto only way i see to nerf it give pasives to dps specs or nerf TW

[Wataurenyew]

Again, it's possible.

It's not meant to be the end-all-be-all show of which is better. There are a lot of crucial bits of information missing that will influence the results. I'm tinkering around with more numbers to see how it influences things.

It feels like the 3 heal dynamic may be difficult to balance for Shaman since TW pretty much makes GHW and HS almost the same heal.
Trying to make HS the fast heal and GHW the slow large heal just seems like it's a difficult task to accomplish.

I'm looking forward to MOP, it looks like there are going to be a lot of interesting configurations between the glyphs and talents.

[Radux]

Well, after toying (i.e. creating) with a spreadsheet today, I've come to the following conclusion:
HS is likely to get nerfed.

GHW (under TW) is only ~4% more HPS (in all gear levels that I can find) and ~7-10% more HPM (7% being low end scaling, 10% being scaled very highly) than a normal HS.

HS under TW is way more efficient than GHW in all aspects.


EDIT: They could also buff GHW instead, since the HS nerf would affect dps specs.

[Daws001]

I'm curious what the design intent is for HS under TW. Outside TW, HS has a clear purpose as our flash heal. GHW essentially becomes that under TW, though, as Wata said.

Maybe the answer, as in my earlier comment, is that HS needs to become something else since it's no longer necessary as our flash heal.

[Deleted]

Unleashed Fury Your elemental weapon imbues are empowered, granting additional effects when triggered with Unleash Weapon: Flametongue Weapon Increases the enemy target's damage taken from your Lightning Bolt by 25% for 10 sec. 30% for 10 sec.

Hmm slightly buffed Unleashed Fury... And nerfed EB. Wasnt UF already top dog for just about all 3 specs prior to this new patch? O_o

And

Lava Burst You hurl molten lava at the target, dealing (2,111 + 135.1% of SP) Fire damage. 1,688 + 108.1% of SP) Fire damage.

Nerfed Lavaburst O_o