[OFFICIAL] MoP Beta Build Changes Discussion Thread

[Aviators]

Ways they can improve Totemic Projection;

Let us use it while stunned
Make the totem drop exactly on the projected area instead of near it.

[Deleted]

I said they don't matter much. Not they don't matter at all. What I mean was that it does not really matter if you kill farm boss for 5 or 6 min. It is dead, the progress is made ant the loot is gathered. But if you can't kill progression boss and struggle because of lack of dmg it actually matters. And my quistion was about the elementals uptime, and why would it matter if it is 1/5 min or 2/10 min. Don't want to start a semantic argument but to clarify (if only for me) the case.

You're simply assuming that short fight = farm boss.


That's not true. Some bosses are even really short even while you progress. Bosses like Hagara have a short 'real' fight time. Morchok was always only 3 minutes long.

35 % debuff in dps of course made any dps irrelevant since it's now that easy. But normally, most hardmodes are even on farm pretty hard (remember TOTFW the first boss on heroiuc - absolutely non-pugable even after months of progression).

Right now, if the overall dps is okay, it should be okay on shorter fights or even better than on very long fights.

[Grimbold21]

Am i wrong in thinking that Spirit Walk is somewhat weak, mainly in the PvP context? Here's a skill that essentially frees you from snares and slows and gives you a 60% speed increase for 15 seconds.

This would be fine, except that be it in bgs or arena, the chances of getting slowed or snared are very high. The skill frees yourself from any of those existent effects, but you can slowed/snared again right after you used, thus preventing you from running away and rendering the skill useless in such scenario.

I think we would be better of if SW had the current effects plus immunity to slows/snares and to compensate the duration of the sprint could be reduced to say somewhere between 5-7 seconds.

[Endus]

Am i wrong in thinking that Spirit Walk is somewhat weak, mainly in the PvP context? Here's a skill that essentially frees you from snares and slows and gives you a 60% speed increase for 15 seconds.

This would be fine, except that be it in bgs or arena, the chances of getting slowed or snared are very high. The skill frees yourself from any of those existent effects, but you can slowed/snared again right after you used, thus preventing you from running away and rendering the skill useless in such scenario.

I think we would be better of if SW had the current effects plus immunity to slows/snares and to compensate the duration of the sprint could be reduced to say somewhere between 5-7 seconds.

In short, yes, you're wrong.

If you look at, say, rogue's Sprint, and druid's Dash, for instance, Spirit Walk is only slightly lower in run speed (60% vs 70%), but it has a shorter cooldown than Dash (2m vs 3m), and while Sprint's CD is only 1 minute, it DOESN'T break movement reductions.

Spirit Walk's absolutely competitive compared to those abilities.

[Deleted]

In short, yes, you're wrong.

If you look at, say, rogue's Sprint, and druid's Dash, for instance, Spirit Walk is only slightly lower in run speed (60% vs 70%), but it has a shorter cooldown than Dash (2m vs 3m), and while Sprint's CD is only 1 minute, it DOESN'T break movement reductions.

Spirit Walk's absolutely competitive compared to those abilities.

You gotta look at the whole package... -.-

Other than Spirit Walk, what gap closing abilities do we have? Unleash Frost from a lv90 talent, Windwalk Totem from another talent and Ghost Wolf (glyphed preferably)

Then Rogues and Druids have many other abilities.

[Endus]

You gotta look at the whole package... -.-

Other than Spirit Walk, what gap closing abilities do we have? Unleash Frost from a lv90 talent, Windwalk Totem from another talent and Ghost Wolf (glyphed preferably)

Then Rogues and Druids have many other abilities.

If we're comparing classes, sure, you need to consider the whole package.

I was referring to one specific ability, though, and whether it was inherently flawed. That it's very comparable to other abilities from other classes says it's not.

[Deleted]

You gotta look at the whole package... -.-

Other than Spirit Walk, what gap closing abilities do we have? Unleash Frost from a lv90 talent, Windwalk Totem from another talent and Ghost Wolf (glyphed preferably)

Then Rogues and Druids have many other abilities.

What other gap closers do they have though?

Rogues, other than sprint, have nothing whatsoever without talents (which you seem to be making a point against), and even with talents they have to choose between a secondary sprint or shadowstep in the same tier.

Kitties are slightly better off but not by a lot. Outside of talents and Dash they have Entangling roots, which they have to change out of form to cast and that's it. Including talents though they can have an instant roots, usuable in all forms every 1 minute, a talentable 50% snare on a 6 second CD (similar to frost shock) which has to compete with an AoE snare from the same tier, and finally another 1 minute CD snare that requires targetting an area.

Comparing that to shaman's kit, it seems we may be slightly better off than the other two.

[Xanda]

The only thing they should do to spirit walk is removing it from GCD then it would be perfect.

[Grimbold21]

In short, yes, you're wrong.

If you look at, say, rogue's Sprint, and druid's Dash, for instance, Spirit Walk is only slightly lower in run speed (60% vs 70%), but it has a shorter cooldown than Dash (2m vs 3m), and while Sprint's CD is only 1 minute, it DOESN'T break movement reductions.

Spirit Walk's absolutely competitive compared to those abilities.

How can it be competitive if in the context that it's used, the skill becomes useless?

If you're in a fight and being slowed/snared, you pop SW and you're free and with a sprint. What do you think is going to happen next? Your opponent(s) are just gonna let you run away? No, you'll be immediately slowed, thus making SW obsolete, because you broke those snares only to be under their effect right after.

Im not even thinking of other classes' similar abilities.

[Keiyra]

How can it be competitive if in the context that it's used, the skill becomes useless?

If you're in a fight and being slowed/snared, you pop SW and you're free and with a sprint. What do you think is going to happen next? Your opponent(s) are just gonna let you run away? No, you'll be immediately slowed, thus making SW obsolete, because you broke those snares only to be under their effect right after.

I'm not even thinking of other classes' similar abilities.

Just like most other sprints/dashes, you will be slowed from your current higher speed. You're still faster than you would be if you were snared at normal speed for the duration of your sprint. You also have the ability to snare the opponent chasing you, allowing you to continue to open the gap even if you are snared during your sprint.

[Endus]

How can it be competitive if in the context that it's used, the skill becomes useless?

Because it doesn't; you're ignoring quite a bit of detail, and assuming you're already in a bad spot and essentially complaining that Spirit Walk isn't a one-button insta-win.

If you're in a fight and being slowed/snared, you pop SW and you're free and with a sprint. What do you think is going to happen next? Your opponent(s) are just gonna let you run away? No, you'll be immediately slowed, thus making SW obsolete, because you broke those snares only to be under their effect right after.

This is assuming the ability they're Slowing you with doesn't have A> a cast time or B> a cooldown, and it also assumes that you're not glyphing Ghost Wolf or talenting Windwalk Totem for additional slow breaks.

As I said; you're assuming the absolute worst case scenario, that the Enhancement Shaman doesn't have any of his tools ready to deal with this (when they could and arguably should be), and the opponent has all their tools ready right that instant. In this kind of a setup, everyone would lose, since you're deliberately stacking the deck against Enhancement from the get-go.

No, it doesn't "prove" that Spirit Walk is "useless". It just shows that it's not a one-button insta-win.

[Deleted]

Make the totem drop exactly on the projected area instead of near it.

You have to think instead. This is EXACTLY what skill cap is all about. If you could place capacitor totem where you wanted and it was an instant aoe stun, if the totems dropped exactly on the projected area, if fire/earth ele had unlimited range, if hex wasn't on a school that would hurt us in any way when locked, if Astral Shift was usable while stunned, if certain procs(instant lava burst)weren't dispellable, etc, etc, they would have to nerf, and that wouldn't allow good players to take distance from the worse.

EDIT: Sorry for dupe



---------- Post added 2012-09-04 at 07:20 PM ----------

Am i wrong in thinking that Spirit Walk is somewhat weak, mainly in the PvP context? Here's a skill that essentially frees you from snares and slows and gives you a 60% speed increase for 15 seconds.

This would be fine, except that be it in bgs or arena, the chances of getting slowed or snared are very high. The skill frees yourself from any of those existent effects, but you can slowed/snared again right after you used, thus preventing you from running away and rendering the skill useless in such scenario.

I think we would be better of if SW had the current effects plus immunity to slows/snares and to compensate the duration of the sprint could be reduced to say somewhere between 5-7 seconds.

I think you underestimate the fact that it breaks roots. In arena, that is pretty valuable - there aren't really that many roots any more. If you coordinate with your healer what roots he dispells and which you Spirit Walk, you are basically 'immune' to roots for 18 sec due to DR.

[Grimbold21]

Because it doesn't; you're ignoring quite a bit of detail, and assuming you're already in a bad spot and essentially complaining that Spirit Walk isn't a one-button insta-win.



This is assuming the ability they're Slowing you with doesn't have A> a cast time or B> a cooldown, and it also assumes that you're not glyphing Ghost Wolf or talenting Windwalk Totem for additional slow breaks.

As I said; you're assuming the absolute worst case scenario, that the Enhancement Shaman doesn't have any of his tools ready to deal with this (when they could and arguably should be), and the opponent has all their tools ready right that instant. In this kind of a setup, everyone would lose, since you're deliberately stacking the deck against Enhancement from the get-go.

No, it doesn't "prove" that Spirit Walk is "useless". It just shows that it's not a one-button insta-win.

Why would i assume anything else other than worst case scenario. Ignoring any of shamans' tools that's you saying it's part of such scenario.

My scenario takes place where i pvp: battlegrounds, in which you're dealing with multiple opponents. You rid yourself of some effects, but you're affected immediately by someone else's.

I don't want it to be an insta-win, i'd prefer it to be a decent get away ability. What good is it for me to get rid of a frost nova if immediately after i'll be slowed by a mage's frostbolt or by his pet? My get away is then screwed.

Probably the best example i can present of a decent get away is the newly introduced druid's stag form. How many times have i managed to bring a druid down to dangerous health % to only see him sprint away, despite of slows and frost shocks?

- Enaina: That might be true, but there's also several classes that, besides having roots, have attacks that slow the enemy aswell, like shamans for example. You can root your enemy in place with frostshock (i think that's a root), and slow him with frostbrand.

[Endus]

Why would i assume anything else other than worst case scenario.

Because nobody ever wins a worst case scenario. The only reason to use them is if you want Shaman to "lose", meaning you're not here to discuss things constructively, you're here to badmouth Shaman.

I don't want it to be an insta-win, i'd prefer it to be a decent get away ability. What good is it for me to get rid of a frost nova if immediately after i'll be slowed by a mage's frostbolt or by his pet? My get away is then screwed.

Yes, because the mage is outplaying you.

Again, you're deliberately putting yourself into a bad situation, and maligning Spirit Walk because it doesn't let you beat the mage every time, under all circumstances. You're asking for it to be an i-win button.

Probably the best example i can present of a decent get away is the newly introduced druid's stag form. How many times have i managed to bring a druid down to dangerous health % to only see him sprint away, despite of slows and frost shocks?

Stag form is just travel form, that can be mounted by a party member. It isn't magically immune to slows. Like all shapeshifts, it breaks movement impairing effects, in exactly the same way Spirit Walk does.

Stag form is more comparable to Ghost Wolf. Which has it's own advantages, if you glyph it, over Travel Form. So yes; you're still just flat-out ignoring Shaman abilities, and assuming the Shaman doesn't do the things you're complaining about others being able to do to you; why didn't you Frost Shock them when they hit Travel Form? At best they'd have to re-shift to break the slow/root again.

- Enaina: That might be true, but there's also several classes that, besides having roots, have attacks that slow the enemy aswell, like shamans for example. You can root your enemy in place with frostshock (i think that's a root), and slow him with frostbrand.

You missed Enaina's point. Breaks have advantages over brief immunities; breaking a crowd control means subsequent applications are affected by diminishing returns. If you use Spirit Walk to break a root, and they re-root you, that new root has half the duration the prior would have.

[Grimbold21]

Im not badmouthing anything. Stop assuming you know what my intentions are.

It's not a matter of outplaying anyone, but of having a better toolkit.
In the example presented, i'd use SW to free myself from the mage's snares or slows and get slowed right after that. I could try several things to close the gap between the 2 of us, like poping earth bind and place it near the mage with TP, spam purge to remove his frost armor and try to slow him even more with FS and frostband via unleash elements; i could pop capacitor totem near me and time to to go off at the moment i place it near the mage with TP.

Well, with that im even proving your point, that there's a number of things i could make use of to close the distance ( not that i wasn't aware of them before). The fact remains that SW frees the user for a very small window of time and that it would be optimal to change it in the way i suggested.

A 5 second immune to impairing movement effects sprint with a 2 min cd? I don't believe that's op. To use the same example, i'd be able to sit on the mage during 5 seconds, a duration spent doing things mentioned above where i hardly think that the fight would be turned into a iwin situation in my favor.

[Deleted]

The only thing they should do to spirit walk is removing it from GCD then it would be perfect.

This would be sweet, I keep forgetting it is on the GCD after being used to having it off our GCD when the wolves were out!

Probably be "too good" for PvP to be breaking roots and snares while off the GCD

[Keiyra]

Probably the best example i can present of a decent get away is the newly introduced druid's stag form. How many times have i managed to bring a druid down to dangerous health % to only see him sprint away, despite of slows and frost shocks?

Neither Travel form nor a druids sprint CD's prevent them from being slowed again...they work just like SW, break+speed, no immunity. If they break your snare, reapply.
Travel form has the bonus of being able to shift out and back to repeatedly break, but its also a lower speed boost than the CD sprints (and rightly so) and requires multiple cd's of shifting when being repeatedly snared/rooted (again, rightly so).

You have ghostwolf which is more or less analogous to travel form, and the ability to glpyh it to prevent snares from reducing your speed below normal. You have Spirit Walk speed+break CD, you potentially have WW totem for group/self immunity, you have baseline snares, aoe and single target talented rooting, passive melee snaring with frostbrand, and you can talent at 90 for an additional speed boost. Why does SW need to grant immunity?

It seriously sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too.

[Deleted]

IMO id love that they would let us have one of the following as a major glyph and the other as a baseline effect to ghost wolf:

- you can cast totems while in ghost wolf
- you are less hindered by movement impairing effects etc etc


I really feel we should be able to do more in GW - the ability feels bland as is.

[Omanley]

I think there are to many major glyphs when considering how locked up we are with GW and HS(enh). If you feel that you're gimped w/o something, it's basically mandatory to take.
-GW: less movement impairment affected (baseline). remove the glyph or make it do something different, I dont really care as we're still left with a dozen options
-HS: stronger selfheal with msw (baseline). That this glyph exists basically tells me as a pvp that we'll be balanced around having it and the selfheal resulting with it. In other words we're either OP w/ it or UP w/o it. I'd guess the later, so make it baseline.
-CPT: reduce CPT charge-up (baseline) to 3 seconds. Optionally you could keep the glyph for a reduction down to one second, I would prefer the removal of the glyph.
-TV: give totems 5% baseline shaman health, with the glyph if taken providing another 5%.

with that we're still left with Hex, SR, Purge, SW, SWG, LB, HR, WS, FRS and many others, but will have decent baseline mobility, appropriate selfheal, a decently working stun and better survivability for key totems, all the while having only optional glyphs, no mandatory.

[Emophia]

Just bring back ghost wolf glyph to baseline and make the old earthen power a glyph.