[OFFICIAL] MoP Beta Build Changes Discussion Thread

[Advent]

I'm curious about the claims that Enhancement may scale differently from haste at 90 than now, considering how our core mechanics aren't changing. Unless they do something drastic to our passive damage or our weapon attack cooldowns I'm not sure haste scaling will get any better at 90.

[Endus]

I'm curious about the claims that Enhancement may scale differently from haste at 90 than now, considering how our core mechanics aren't changing. Unless they do something drastic to our passive damage or our weapon attack cooldowns I'm not sure haste scaling will get any better at 90.

There are a lot of changes that will affect it. The changes in 4.0 weren't that huge either; SS went from a 6s to 8s CD, LL went from 4s to 10s and got a big damage buff, and Static Shock no longer procced off autoattacks. Those were the big factors that took Haste from "OMG even better than Agility" to "absolute worst". Ascendance and Unleashed Fury: Windfury are, combined, probably enough to pull Haste ahead of Crit. Haste probably won't be better than Mastery, but there's definitely changes that will improve it.

It doesn't have to be our best stat again to be scaling fine.

[Xanda]

There are a lot of changes that will affect it. The changes in 4.0 weren't that huge either; SS went from a 6s to 8s CD, LL went from 4s to 10s and got a big damage buff, and Static Shock no longer procced off autoattacks. Those were the big factors that took Haste from "OMG even better than Agility" to "absolute worst". Ascendance and Unleashed Fury: Windfury are, combined, probably enough to pull Haste ahead of Crit. Haste probably won't be better than Mastery, but there's definitely changes that will improve it.

It doesn't have to be our best stat again to be scaling fine.

I'm almost sure SS was 8s and lava lash 6s.

[Advent]

There are a lot of changes that will affect it. The changes in 4.0 weren't that huge either; SS went from a 6s to 8s CD, LL went from 4s to 10s and got a big damage buff, and Static Shock no longer procced off autoattacks. Those were the big factors that took Haste from "OMG even better than Agility" to "absolute worst". Ascendance and Unleashed Fury: Windfury are, combined, probably enough to pull Haste ahead of Crit. Haste probably won't be better than Mastery, but there's definitely changes that will improve it.

It doesn't have to be our best stat again to be scaling fine.

I think you misunderstood my skepticism. I don't believe that haste needs to be our best stat, nor am I advocating it being better than the individual agility or crit. What I was curious about were the claims that haste will be different than it is now. Considering the lofty cooldown and relatively short duration of ascendance, it is premature to believe that haste will prove to be anything other than the stat we reforge out of. Nevertheless, this is just a few guesses. As is my personal skepticism regarding the potency of Unleashed Fury, which by now has yet to be tested and doesn't seem to be something to rely on for increasing our haste scaling. Unless, of course, they lower the cooldown of Unleash Elements by a couple of seconds, thereby increasing the uptime of that buff, specifically.

In the end though, we're both just speculating at this point. It all remains to be seen, and I still intend to play my shaman as enhancement whether they decide to do something with haste for us or not.

[Protoman]

There are a lot of changes that will affect it. The changes in 4.0 weren't that huge either; SS went from a 6s to 8s CD, LL went from 4s to 10s and got a big damage buff, and Static Shock no longer procced off autoattacks. Those were the big factors that took Haste from "OMG even better than Agility" to "absolute worst". Ascendance and Unleashed Fury: Windfury are, combined, probably enough to pull Haste ahead of Crit. Haste probably won't be better than Mastery, but there's definitely changes that will improve it.

It doesn't have to be our best stat again to be scaling fine.

The changes from wrath to cata were pretty significant, they toned down alot of things that haste influenced which is why it doesn't feel as useful anymore....
-More Active then Passive damage, like SS and LL buffs
-Removed the bonus 30% haste bonus for hybrids
-Nerfed FT's damage/scaling
-Changed Static Shock to proc off abilities not melee attacks, not influenced by haste anymore
-Reduced spell crit > lower priority on MW5, by not using asap you waste any value of haste increasing procs


Haste is not very good for us because it only buffs passive damage, and has no influence on doing more active damage. MW5 is our only tie between passive damage turning into active damage.....when you think "haste lets you do more" regarding active abilities, MW5/LB was our only way to achieve that. Since it is no longer top priority and we don't use the stacks asap, it totally devalues any contribution haste has to increasing the procs.

We are getting spell crit back, and via UF we get some of the old Static Shock thru melee attacks. This will help haste a bit, but prob still won't be good enough to make cd's like EM worth getting, or Blust being as potent as it used to be. We haven't gotten any mechanic to let us do more active damage via haste, MW5 is it and it's still going to be under SS/LL for priority. I like that our SS/LL hit harder then LB, I don't want to depend on passive damage for PVP. But they can still find a way to make MW5 top priority again, along with haste giving more influence, even if minor and on passive damage:

-MW5 top priority: Reduce major cd's like Feral Spirits and Ascendance w/ each full stack MW5 consumed, similar to "Feedback" for Ele's
-Haste scaling bonus for Feral Spirits, Flame Shock dot, Searing totem
-Haste reduce the cd of SS/LL by a small amount, like every 25% is 1 sec off (would only really notice during Blust or EM)

These additions would allow us to "do more" with our active abilities, especially during haste cd's like BL or EM. With no mechanics improvements regarding haste, other then cd's and UF, haste will continue to just be a buff to passive damage only.

Yeah, it's in the forums at totemspot.com. I've got a link to it in the megapost sticky about MoP changes, too.

Hmm interesting... he reported this yesterday "Based on something datamined by WoWDB it's 6%, although that has now changed to 100% so I think it's going to have an internal cooldown so that it's as useful to Enh as Ele/Resto "... I always thought EoE should either be a ppm or high % chance with an icd. I guess if this is true then there will still be diff icd's between enhance and ele/resto right, to make sure Enhance gets more procs? I made some predictions about what this will be.....

Ele/Resto: 2ppm, 30s icd
Enh: 6-8ppm, 7.5-10s icd

These numbers are NOT based off anything concrete, just speculation and playing around with some theoretical numbers.

[evilgnomey]

I kinda like the changes to totems, being clicky cooldowns instead of just passive buffs makes them more fun. I'm wondering where our raid-wide buffs are though, I'm a little worried we will be like rogues buff-wise in MoP.

[Kio]

I kinda like the changes to totems, being clicky cooldowns instead of just passive buffs makes them more fun. I'm wondering where our raid-wide buffs are though, I'm a little worried we will be like rogues buff-wise in MoP.

Did you miss the part where we have buffs as raid wide auras now?

[evilgnomey]

Did you miss the part where we have buffs as raid wide auras now?

I haven't noticed anything in my spellbook about them, guess I'll need to look again.

[Tzunade]

We lose now the always critic glyph and that was a good thing for pvp and they make a new glyph only for enh, LvB dont have glyphs anymore.

[Cai]

I think elemental mastery should provide 30% mastery, and ancestral swiftness should give 5% passive mastery! Then maybe enhancement would pick something other than EoE

While I think Ele Mastery could be changed to Mastery, Ancestral Swiftness should stay haste.

I'm almost sure SS was 8s and lava lash 6s.

You are correct. Now choose a prize behind 1 of the following 3 doors.

[Protoman]

While I think Ele Mastery could be changed to Mastery, Ancestral Swiftness should stay haste.

Well, like I said earlier preferably they should improve haste in general for Enh so that both cd's are good just based on haste. But I wouldn't mind an "Enhance" version of each talent either...

-EM. Gives Mastery instead of Haste.
-AS. The "on use" effect will let you use any ability regardless of cd, so after using LL you trigger this and can use another LL right after. It would be the same type of burst damage an Ele could do with 2 LB's, or heals with 2 GHW's for Resto.


If they do not find a way to make MW5 top priority, haste will just buff passive damage and that isn't very significant compared to our active damage. MW5 is our only way to "let you do more" active damage thru passive damage. The spec is kinda boring without the need to use MW5 asap, totally devalues haste.

[-Orion-]

I dont know if lighting bolts from MW5 will be even worth using in pvp, I mean I love the fact that I can heal and save myself, and especially with the new glyph(healing storm i think) and EotE, our healing could go to another level, but using lighting bolts atm to actually do damage is very worthless for enha, and pretty boring.

We need a new ability, or a some reset mechanism on lava lash or stormstrike, though I do prefer a new ability to use our excess mana, and not just that, something new might also fill the gap that we have after using both stormstrike and lava lash.

[Protoman]

I dont know if lighting bolts from MW5 will be even worth using in pvp, I mean I love the fact that I can heal and save myself, and especially with the new glyph(healing storm i think) and EotE, our healing could go to another level, but using lighting bolts atm to actually do damage is very worthless for enha, and pretty boring.

We need a new ability, or a some reset mechanism on lava lash or stormstrike, though I do prefer a new ability to use our excess mana, and not just that, something new might also fill the gap that we have after using both stormstrike and lava lash.

Well, they could let you reset the cd on LL using MW5. For example, once you reach 5 stacks of MW5....it converts into a separate buff called "Maelstrom Strike" (lets say you can only store 2 MS), and MW5 continues to stack. You can use Mael Strike for an instant nature spell, or you if you get 2 stacks of Maelstrom Strike you can use LL or SS regardless of cd. So basically once you have stacked 2 MW5, that equals 1 LL anytime.....or 2 instant nature spells.

I agree that MW5 for LB's in PVP is boring, and I always prefer to use it for heals/hex instead. But in PVE it should be top priority since that is what made the ability interesting as well as our biggest benefit from Haste. It's like how Ele will want to use LvB asap when it procs via Lava Surge, and they look forward to it. My suggestion to increase the priority without increasing it's damage was give it a "Feedback" effect, so each full MW5 consumed reduces the cd of Feral Spirits and Ascendance by 2 sec. Would make it top priority and you want to use asap so you can use cd's faster, but won't increase our DPS except on longer fights.

[Cai]

Well, like I said earlier preferably they should improve haste in general for Enh so that both cd's are good just based on haste.

My question where on that stat priority would you like to see haste?

on live now it is agil > sp hit 17% > exp 541 > mastery > crit > haste

How much does it need improved, better than crit or both mastery and crit? Even if it is just better than Crit what then, Mastery will still be better to stack after hitting caps. I can't see it being more important than hit/exp..

If they do not find a way to make MW5 top priority, haste will just buff passive damage and that isn't very significant compared to our active damage. MW5 is our only way to "let you do more" active damage thru passive damage. The spec is kinda boring without the need to use MW5 asap, totally devalues haste.

Why should MW5 be our top priority? It isn't a ability we use like LL/SS, it is a proc. Is there another class out there that holds a proc'd ability over and active one? I do not think Enh is boring without the need to use MW5 asap. I just don't see the need for Enh have have a reason to use haste in all honesty.

I can't wait to see how crit is different at lvl 90, for Flurry/Ele Devastation 2 talents we are keeping in MoP only activate after a crit, esp because of Enh finally getting 2.0 crit modifier.

[Deleted]

Anyone tested Stormslash totems?
I made a few testing rounds:

11k Lb`s (with tc-glyph ) made 9,7-10,5k Procs.
Every lb made a totem dmg proc.

Ok. I thought my Lb with 12sek casttime and lol-dmg as resto maybe doesnt say anything about the intern cd and dmg scale.
So i testet it with Auto-attack (+heroism).

1200 white hits made 1100er Totem Procs!

- So it seems to me it has a 100% proc-chance,
- it scales with the dmg of the attack
- procs from white hits!
- can crit
- does not proc from searing totem (so maybe from no pets)
- no intern cd (? not sure, but my whitehits came every 1,02sek and every hit got a totem-proc)

Seems much better than i thought.
Think about a 10 man raid with 2 shamans (who skill the totem reset talent). This would be 40sek Totem-uptime....sounds great!

[Radux]

Cai, I think the idea is more along the lines of other class/specs have something similar, in that they want to react immediately to the proc/whatever.

-Frost DK wants to use their insta-crit / free HB asap
-UH DK wants to use their free DCoil asap
-Kitties want to use their Clearcasting proc asap
-Elemental want to use their LavaSurge ==> Lava Burst asap

The list can go on - I just listed a couple that came to mind really quickly.

I'm assuming the idea was to make that proc/finished stack feel really important opposed to... 'well... I'll use it when some other stuff is on CD'

[Deleted]

Chainheal Glyph with doubled jump range still not working :/

[Protoman]

My question where on that stat priority would you like to see haste?

on live now it is agil > sp hit 17% > exp 541 > mastery > crit > haste

How much does it need improved, better than crit or both mastery and crit? Even if it is just better than Crit what then, Mastery will still be better to stack after hitting caps. I can't see it being more important than hit/exp..

I don't want it to be better then any other secondary stat, I am find with it being our worst secondary stat and the one we always reforge. What I do want is to benefit from haste like other classes, especially during something like Blust or EM, and to notice it's effect to let us do more active damage (via MW5), instead of just boring buff to passive damage.

Why should MW5 be our top priority? It isn't a ability we use like LL/SS, it is a proc. Is there another class out there that holds a proc'd ability over and active one? I do not think Enh is boring without the need to use MW5 asap. I just don't see the need for Enh have have a reason to use haste in all honesty.

I can't wait to see how crit is different at lvl 90, for Flurry/Ele Devastation 2 talents we are keeping in MoP only activate after a crit, esp because of Enh finally getting 2.0 crit modifier.

Cai, I think the idea is more along the lines of other class/specs have something similar, in that they want to react immediately to the proc/whatever.

-Frost DK wants to use their insta-crit / free HB asap
-UH DK wants to use their free DCoil asap
-Kitties want to use their Clearcasting proc asap
-Elemental want to use their LavaSurge ==> Lava Burst asap

The list can go on - I just listed a couple that came to mind really quickly.

I'm assuming the idea was to make that proc/finished stack feel really important opposed to... 'well... I'll use it when some other stuff is on CD'

Exactly what Radux said, I was going to use Ele and lava surge for my example actually.....or MW5 in wotlk. Procs are what make a normal rotation go from mundane to exciting. And more importantly, it's one of the biggest influences Haste could have on DPS....especially during something like Bloodlust. If you get a proc, you want to use it right away so you can get it again. During Blust, you get alot more procs and something like 4 MW5's in 30 sec might be more like 6. The fact that it's a low priority and we use it only after our other abilities are all on cd really makes it boring and totally devalues haste's ability to increase the number of procs.

Almost every class/spec in the game that has a proc wants to use it right away because it will lead to more DPS at little/no cost. A fire mage for example looks forward to hit Pyroblast proc, but Enhance no longer feel the same towards MW5. This is a problem imo, and should be fixed.....it's our ONLY way to convert passive damage to active, and the most noticeable effect of bonus haste.....especially for cd's like BL or EM.

My suggestion for a "Feedback" mechanism for MW5 would make it desirable to use right away, but it would not make LB do any more damage, so passive damage's contribution to our overall DPS would not really change. We would still be more active then passive....you wouldn't have to nerf damage elsewhere, and we wouldn't rely on MW5 to be competitive in PVP. All it would do is make MW5 exciting again, along with encourage you to use only at 5 stacks.

[Cai]

Cai, I think the idea is more along the lines of other class/specs have something similar, in that they want to react immediately to the proc/whatever.

-Frost DK wants to use their insta-crit / free HB asap
-UH DK wants to use their free DCoil asap
-Kitties want to use their Clearcasting proc asap
-Elemental want to use their LavaSurge ==> Lava Burst asap

The list can go on - I just listed a couple that came to mind really quickly.

I'm assuming the idea was to make that proc/finished stack feel really important opposed to... 'well... I'll use it when some other stuff is on CD'

That makes more sense to me. Though I have always treated MW5 as top priority. I hit LB asap.

I don't want it to be better then any other secondary stat, I am find with it being our worst secondary stat and the one we always reforge. What I do want is to benefit from haste like other classes, especially during something like Blust or EM, and to notice it's effect to let us do more active damage (via MW5), instead of just boring buff to passive damage.

I think Enh's problem with benefiting from haste/BL/EM is that all of our damage spells have a cd. If none of our spell had a cd I would think we would benefit more from haste. There lies the problem because if we didn't have cd's we could just spam 1 button.

Exactly what Radux said, I was going to use Ele and lava surge for my example actually.....or MW5 in wotlk. Procs are what make a normal rotation go from mundane to exciting. And more importantly, it's one of the biggest influences Haste could have on DPS....especially during something like Bloodlust. If you get a proc, you want to use it right away so you can get it again. During Blust, you get alot more procs and something like 4 MW5's in 30 sec might be more like 6. The fact that it's a low priority and we use it only after our other abilities are all on cd really makes it boring and totally devalues haste's ability to increase the number of procs.

Almost every class/spec in the game that has a proc wants to use it right away because it will lead to more DPS at little/no cost. A fire mage for example looks forward to hit Pyroblast proc, but Enhance no longer feel the same towards MW5. This is a problem imo, and should be fixed.....it's our ONLY way to convert passive damage to active, and the most noticeable effect of bonus haste.....especially for cd's like BL or EM.

My suggestion for a "Feedback" mechanism for MW5 would make it desirable to use right away, but it would not make LB do any more damage, so passive damage's contribution to our overall DPS would not really change. We would still be more active then passive....you wouldn't have to nerf damage elsewhere, and we wouldn't rely on MW5 to be competitive in PVP. All it would do is make MW5 exciting again, along with encourage you to use only at 5 stacks.

Ok, I understand more from where you are coming from. Also, quick thought would MW5 clime in value if it had a side effect to it? like Maelstrom Weapon has a 10% chance per stack to reset you Stormstrike cd when used. I would think it would climb up in our Priority. With a side effect like that wouldn't haste be more valuable like you are suggesting.

Also, sry about my early post I reread it and I felt like I was being a little rude.

[Protoman]

That makes more sense to me. Though I have always treated MW5 as top priority. I hit LB asap.

I would love to use MW5 right away, but unfortunetly for max DPS you have to prioritize SS and LL, since all MW5 gives is LB damage which does not compete with those 2, and even with the bonus crit in MoP prob still won't beat out either of them.

I think Enh's problem with benefiting from haste/BL/EM is that all of our damage spells have a cd. If none of our spell had a cd I would think we would benefit more from haste. There lies the problem because if we didn't have cd's we could just spam 1 button.

Yea, static cd's is the big issue for Haste with Enhance. Haste is supposed to "let you do more" of your active abilities, and for most other classes they either get faster casts/gcds.....or more resource generation to use their abilities more often. For us, we have set cd's so our rate of attacks does not increase at all, and more mana doesn't lead to more attacks since it only limits healing. All we get from haste is more passive damage, which is much less potent then our active damage abilities. MW5 is the one exception, this allows us to convert passive damage procs into active damage w/ LB. During Blust or EM when we have a big chunk of haste, we do more melee attacks which make MW5 stack faster meaning we can use LB more often. But because it's a low priority and we don't use asap, any potential extra procs are wasted, and so is any benefit we would gain from bonus haste.

Ok, I understand more from where you are coming from. Also, quick thought would MW5 clime in value if it had a side effect to it? like Maelstrom Weapon has a 10% chance per stack to reset you Stormstrike cd when used. I would think it would climb up in our Priority. With a side effect like that wouldn't haste be more valuable like you are suggesting.

Also, sry about my early post I reread it and I felt like I was being a little rude.

Np, I didn't get a rude feeling from your posts, just a different opinion lol.

And yea, giving MW5 a bonus effect would make it a higher priority, that's what I was trying to suggest with the "Feedback" mechanism. Your suggestion is good too, but would prob be better to give the bonus only at 5 stacks and not before, to encourage using MW5 only when full and not hard cast anything. The only real problem I see with that though is a 50% chance to proc a free SS might be too powerful, that's probably 2 extra SS's in 30sec assuming we get about 4 MW5 procs in 30 sec. That may be too much of a buff and so something else would have to get nerfed, but I wouldn't mind that. For example.....nerf the damage of LB, but since MW5 gives us more SS it would even out and MW5 would still be top priority cause of the bonus effect, even if LB itself is lower damage.

Another alternative using the same idea, but taking some RNG out of it would be something like this: ""Each full MW5 consumed will give you a stack of "Storm Charge". Once you get 3 of these, your next LL (or SS) used will get it's cd reset. "" So every 3 MW5's used, your next LL can be used twice in a row for some nice burst.

My suggestion with "Feedback" was that each full MW5 consumed will reduce the cd of Feral Spirits and Ascendance by 2 sec. This would not have any short term benefits, but for longer fights like raid bosses that last 5+min, you might be able to use your FS and Ascendance more often then like twice per fight. This version you would prob not have to nerf anything......but I kinda like the whole "cd reset" idea that you mentioned, would enforce the idea that haste lets you use your abilities more often.....even during shorter periods like 30sec of BL.