[MoP Bear] Basically confirmed: still no tanking leather

[baller1308]

It's better this way.

Agreed. Why have to get an entirely new set for dps?

[Bearshield]

No. Worse. You would have every single bear and cat ability and passive at the same time, something that isn't possible on live.
If you're an agi stacker, the only difference would be reforges and enchants.


Also, parry now scales directly with strength in the same way agility and dodge do.

Yes, I am aware that on the plate tanks, parry scales with strength, but Monks are intended to wear agi gear like Druids. So where are they getting their parry from?

And I still don't see how there would be a problem if feral was still on spec under the current system in beta. The difference between feral druids and other tanks/dps is that our abilities are based off of our forms. Bears are not using cat abilities and topping meters in bear form and cats cannot tank in cat form. If I'm missing something here, please feel free to correct me but I don't see what's different between live and beta as far as passive abilities go that would suddenly make what we have live OP in beta. As I've said before, I wouldn't have a problem with the splitting of specs had we gained something from it. So far though, we have lost versatility and gained nothing in return. Cats have nothing new from live to beta and the majority of what bears got, cats have access to also

Oh and I love the people acting like we are selfish for wanting armor for our spec. We are asking for the same treatment that EVERY other class in the game gets and we are selfish?

[Elbren]

Splitting off leather into another set to include dedicated tanking stats would break looting even more if they continue to release raids with only 7 bosses. We're already too cramped for loot drops that many slots don't have anything available.

This wouldn't be a problem if they'd stop making half-raids or stopped making wasted loot. Tier 11 had a 2-boss raid that dropped almost all random-enchant gear. Literally, the only reason to run TotFW once you'd cleared it for progression was for the possibility of tier tokens. Before the current tier, rogues were one of the lesser played classes, yet Tier 12 saw a raid that had 4 agility daggers despite only having 7 bosses. Yet somehow, this same raid didn't have a single piece of non-tier cloth with Spirit on it.

If they would stop making wasted loot, bloated loot tables wouldn't be an issue. Tanking leather helps 2 tanking classes with survivability (Druids and Monks) and takes away 2 specs that dps leather classes (Monk, Kitty's, Rogues) have to roll against.

There is a possibility that guardians will have a separate tier set with defensive stats, but they'll have to share feral and rogue leather for bracers, belts and boots, on top of sharing a weapon with ferals and hunters. The same kind of thing that goes on with balance and resto druids, where they made spirit a less awful stat for balance druids so that way gear could get consolidated a bit.

The one problem I'd see with this is that Tier would automatically become BiS for Bears with no real alternatives for off-set pieces. Basically, every class and spec in-game would have off-set pieces they could use except Bears.

Yes, they COULD use different pieces, but very few (if any) would give the same benefit as using a tier piece that had actual tanking stats on it.

[Deleted]

You know why there is no tanking leather? Because it might lead to complications like in BC where druid tanks were still running around with 3 pieces of blue crafted gear simply because it was the best there was. (atlho, other mechanics also were responsible for that).
Besides, they have changed the druid tank to use most offensive stats (aside from haste) defensive purposes. Besides, with reforging in the game, there is really no need for actual tanking leather.

[Kujako]

If there was tanking gear, it would be very uncommon. I would much rather be able to make use of the gear that drops rather then waiting for that 1-5% chance of an upgrade.

[Djuntas]

Erhm, I already have a tank set and DPS set, only difference is that the 2 is the same on some points. I dont see this as a problem, besides the annoying haste.

If we were to get tank druid items it would just mean less haste items, and possibely blizzard making dodge on leather items, who really cares about avoidance (Oh y I just said it!)

Edit: OP, did you play druid in TBC? Then you know its really the same as it is now. Yes, we could get items with only stam and armor off the roof, like it was back then, but whats the chances we'll get such tailored items as we had in TBC. Wouldent be fair to other tanks classes.

Also just cause the damn badge trinket (Cant renember name now, that delpleted one, still keeping it inn the bank/void!, had 500 armor it was good-moode, now that was broken mechanics hehe.... good times!

[Baphomette]

Oh and I love the people acting like we are selfish for wanting armor for our spec. We are asking for the same treatment that EVERY other class in the game gets and we are selfish?

Funny, I missed the separate Arms and Fury sets, the separate Frost and Unholy sets, the three separate rogue and hunter sets...

Bears are balanced around tanking in DPS gear. If you're asking for tank gear because you think it will be a tanking buff, it won't; you'll just be balanced around tanking in tank gear and no longer able to use DPS gear effectively.

[Scubascythe]

I run a feral tank and I have 2 feral sets anyways since I MT hence hybrid stam gems+dodge reforge on the tank set, pure agi gems+haste reforge on the dps set. I found it more beneficial to share the same loot since as I upgraded my tank gear, my old gear usually became my dps set by slapping on new gems/reforge. Also lets me swap in more and more dps-orientated gear as the bosses are on farm+being nerfed.

Having another gear set created just means more frustration waiting for specific drops. Sure it means we'd have more dodge/mastery overall but the loot would be even more boring (dodge+mastery with variants of hit+exp), and our niche of being one of the higher dps-tanks would be gone. No thanks.

Sounds like a post where you've lost leather loot to rogues/feral dps so many times you want a separate set just so it can be yours when it drops just like plate tanks.

[Deleted]

You know why there is no tanking leather? Because it might lead to complications like in BC where druid tanks were still running around with 3 pieces of blue crafted gear simply because it was the best there was. (atlho, other mechanics also were responsible for that).

We'll, that's sort of like saying "Blizzard isn't doing it because they will probably screw up", which isn't a reason to not try in the first place. I have no problem with no tanking leather and I understand what they're trying to achieve though, so I'm on your side - just didn't think this was a good way to think about it

[Deleted]

Loottables are big enough already.

The funny thing is that loot tables might be big, but not because of the amount of items, but because of the small number of bosses per tier. There is one item (or zero) per slot in loot tables + tier tokens, plus 1 or 2 other weapon choices (because the weapon slot is the most important).
The solution to have smaller loot tables : more bosses per tier.

[Bearshield]

You know why there is no tanking leather? Because it might lead to complications like in BC where druid tanks were still running around with 3 pieces of blue crafted gear simply because it was the best there was. (atlho, other mechanics also were responsible for that).
Besides, they have changed the druid tank to use most offensive stats (aside from haste) defensive purposes. Besides, with reforging in the game, there is really no need for actual tanking leather.

Um yeah, you didn't use the clefthoof set after you started raiding and getting your tier. Yes it was good for starting tanks, no it was not better than tier. And reforging is not the answer as long as the plate tanks aren't having to reforge dps gear for every slot to make it useful.

[Jeffyjimbob]

I prefer it the way it is, simply because even with monks coming, there's only going to be two specs using tank-leather.

I don't know about you, but I hardly ever see int plate drop, probably because only paladins can use it, and only if they're holy specced. That being said, the drop rates would suck for tank-leather as well. The only way past that, would be tier tokens which if the current model stays, 4 classes are rolling on regardless of spec, and gearing up through LFR since if you "win" you're guaranteed an item useful for your spec. But that only applies to LFR, any other time, the odds are well against you.

[mercutiouk]

I wouldn't really have a problem with the split if we'd actually gained something from it. But we're not gaining anything from this change.[COLOR="red"]

You weren't MEANT to gain anything from the change. Power wise at least.
They simplied the tree's. It should be clear from that the reason for the split:

If you automatically get ALL feral talents for choosing the feral tree there's no longer any split between feral cats and feral tanks, they are the same with (perhaps) a slight gear tweak. This would OBVIOUSLY be massively overpowered so it got split.

[Handlebardoc]

They made the talent split because under the new specialization system, everything you needed would have been completely baseline. All kitties would have the entire tanking toolkit baseline in their spec and all bears would have had the kitty toolkit entirely at their disposal. It would have led to a more extreme situation of what's happening on live already in that it's way too hard to balance.

Basically this. With the new talent system, if it was one spec it would be very difficult to give cat tools without giving them bear tools as well. It would be terribly unbalanced and overpowered when your tank can just switch form and put out as much dps as a dps spec. In fact, we see that now. In live, bearcats are almost irreplaceable on H Spine and H Madness, because they can switch to cat for tendons or switch to cat for all of Madness that doesn't require a tank. Any 10 man without a bear tank is hamstringing themselves. In PvP, they can put out plenty of damage as cat, then switch to bear when they get focused. Its highly unbalanced and blizzard doesn't want this nightmare happening again.

To the OP: There is no need to add in "tanking" leather for bears, because blizzard has already invested two expansions+ worth of time making them capable of using "dps" leather. If they added tanking leather, they would have to do quite a bit of redesigning on bears. And you might be tired of having to roll against rogues, but trust me, you would be more angry that your rare tanking leather wouldn't even drop. Tanking leather is a bad idea.

[Bearshield]

Erhm, I already have a tank set and DPS set, only difference is that the 2 is the same on some points. I dont see this as a problem, besides the annoying haste.

If we were to get tank druid items it would just mean less haste items, and possibely blizzard making dodge on leather items, who really cares about avoidance (Oh y I just said it!)

Edit: OP, did you play druid in TBC? Then you know its really the same as it is now. Yes, we could get items with only stam and armor off the roof, like it was back then, but whats the chances we'll get such tailored items as we had in TBC. Wouldent be fair to other tanks classes.

Also just cause the damn badge trinket (Cant renember name now, that delpleted one, still keeping it inn the bank/void!, had 500 armor it was good-moode, now that was broken mechanics hehe.... good times!

Yes, I've played a druid as feral since vanilla so I've watched how our gear has changed over the years. TBC was not the same as now, back then we weren't worrying about where we're going to get dodge from (because the agi to dodge ratio was easier to reach back then), but instead what pieces had bonus armor and how we were going to get def capped. Back then there was actual Druid gear and Rogue gear. Yes some pieces were shared but the choice existed. Back then we shared tanking accessories with the plate tanks save for the occasional high armor trinket such as the one you're referring to (Badge of Tenacity I believe)

How is it unfair to the other tanking classes who are already getting gear designed for them for us to have the same benefit? Not to mention Monks.

---------- Post added 2012-04-07 at 04:19 PM ----------

Sounds like a post where you've lost leather loot to rogues/feral dps so many times you want a separate set just so it can be yours when it drops just like plate tanks.

Our guild runs 10 mans, there's 2 of us who are feral and one rogue. None of us are concerned with the order we receive loot in, nor do I see how your first assumption based on my posts is that I am just a loot whore. I've been a Druid tank for a long time now and I preferred the time when we had actual separate tanking and dps sets. Sure it makes switching mid-fight less effective, but Blizz is killing that in MoP anyhow.

---------- Post added 2012-04-07 at 04:22 PM ----------

Funny, I missed the separate Arms and Fury sets, the separate Frost and Unholy sets, the three separate rogue and hunter sets...

Bears are balanced around tanking in DPS gear. If you're asking for tank gear because you think it will be a tanking buff, it won't; you'll just be balanced around tanking in tank gear and no longer able to use DPS gear effectively.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Bears are tanks and Cats are dps. To use your class examples, it'd be like Warriors and DK's tanking and dpsing in the exact same set of gear. Sure you can gem/reforge things here and there but don't you think you'd do better overall if you used a set for tanking and a separate set for dps?

Every class in the game has gear designed for them, some more than others. Nobody has a problem watching the healing plate drop and get de'd, or the shields, or the ranged weapons, but tanking leather would be an immense burden on the loot tables? I think not.

[Jeffyjimbob]

Sure you can gem/reforge things here and there but don't you think you'd do better overall if you used a set for tanking and a separate set for dps?

That's just it, we're being balanced around DPS gear. Yea, obviously we'd do better if we had tanking gear and kept our stats the way they are now. But if tanking leather came out, we'd be RE-Balanced around tanking leather, to the point where it would be just as effective as tanking in DPS gear is now, with the bonus of our armor suddenly being harder to find. It wouldn't change ANYTHING, except our skill and mitigation formulas.

Edit: Just in case I flew right over you:

Here are some made up numbers blizzard would strive for!

1. Bear in DPS gear has 200k HP, 60% reduced melee damage from armor, and 40% dodge.

2. Then they release tank-leather, druids everywhere rejoice!

3. Bear in Tank gear still has 200k HP, 60% reduced melee damage from armor, and 40% dodge.

4. All the druids bitch about nothing changing.

It wouldn't change a damned thing, because they want us to hit those numbers regardless of what we're wearing.

[Bearshield]

You weren't MEANT to gain anything from the change. Power wise at least.
They simplied the tree's. It should be clear from that the reason for the split:

If you automatically get ALL feral talents for choosing the feral tree there's no longer any split between feral cats and feral tanks, they are the same with (perhaps) a slight gear tweak. This would OBVIOUSLY be massively overpowered so it got split.

So you're saying that the way feral has been since TBC is OP? Feral druids have been THE ot since feral became a common playstyle back in TBC. (I didn't mention vanilla because there were too few of us playing feral to matter then) Why? Because of all the tanks we had the best dps while not tanking. This isn't something new to Cata. But now all of the sudden that is OP with the "changes" in MoP. Well what changes? People keep saying that to me but I still don't see what Bears or Cats are getting that the other will not have access to that make our current playstyle OP.

Like I said, my only complaint about the change is that we are losing versatility and gaining nothing in its place. For years we asked for more tools or better utility etc to do our jobs better as feral and for years our versatility was held over our heads as an excuse not to fulfill our request. Well now we are being split, our versatility gone and yet we get nothing.

[Spl4sh3r]

because the way the new spec and talent systems work they couldn't put 2 roles in one spec and expect it not to be OP.

This, in Mists of Pandaria the Raid Finder will sort loot depending on your role. Atleast it is one of the reason. The second I would take it is to few would use said tanking leather. It's enough that we have Holy Paladin gear being the only seperate gear that only one spec needs. With tanking leather it will be only two specs that needs it (Tank Druids and Monks) and it would increase the loot table on everything and give everyone less chance to get what they need for their gear upgrades. Also you mention that they made use of Haste and Crit because those wear on leather, you saying they should re-evaluate how Tank Druids should gear? That would be even more hassle.

[Bearshield]

That's just it, we're being balanced around DPS gear. Yea, obviously we'd do better if we had tanking gear and kept our stats the way they are now. But if tanking leather came out, we'd be RE-Balanced around tanking leather, to the point where it would be just as effective as tanking in DPS gear is now, with the bonus of our armor suddenly being harder to find. It wouldn't change ANYTHING, except our skill and mitigation formulas.

There's nothing to rebalance though. The biggest change they made to us going from the old tank gear to rogue gear is now we don't care about strength anymore. If they designed actual tank gear for us, it would be no different than how they do the plate tanks. The agi on it would go down, there would be no crit or haste, in its place we would get dodge, perhaps more mastery, hit, expertise. Yes our crit would go down but other than that, I fail to see what would need rebalanced.

[Deleted]

Why do you need tanking gear when you are balanced around using offensive stats to survive, sorry? DKs tank with DPS orientated 2Hs, and are meant too, obviously they prefer mastery or expertise over haste and crit, but if they got a 2H with parry and dodge, it would be superfluous stats, giving them an unintended edge.

Druids with tanking gear would be exactly the same. Seconding the ''You want your own loot for the sake of it.'' No justification given other than that.