splitting 25man and 10man. the way it was before

[Deleted]

Yeah, stupid IN YOUR OPINION.

IN MY OPINION they are a glorified 5man. Am I not allowed to have a different opinion to you? Does that automatically make me stupid? What should the punishment be for not agreeing with you? Also I'm not sure why you need 20 people to go from 10 to 25.... I think you should have a look at those numbers again. What server are you on? You can always recruit cross-server. My guild has recruited over 20 people since DS came out, most of them from other servers. They transfered to join. What is stopping a good 10man guild from doing that?

Great start on a reply m8 but what you are saying it a bit true, with a small flaw. You can always do cross realm recruiting but there are so many guilds who are offering HC, 5 days a week raiding and even sometimes boosting for gear. A small guild who just want to have enough people to do 25 mans, are not going to get many replies when there is a lot of elite guilds who can give them so much more.

So as you said in the start.... your argument is invalid xD

[Deleted]

Im sorry, you must have completely missed Teir 12, where certain 10M HMs were 2x harder than 25M HMs. For example, Ryolith.

For me personally it was in tier 11 where 10man heroics where a lot harder and not in tier 12

[zoefschildpad]

running the same raid twice a week? no thanks

[digger66]

I think people are missing his point, I could be wrong but maybe he is just wanting no shared lock out? I think this is part of the problem. Ten man in Ulduar was not easy. It had teh same hard modes and really tested you. It also had some best in slot gear from those hard modes that only dropped there. Also had cheaves and a mount. It meant more to do for each raid. My own interest in WoW started to drop with the shared lock out.

In my own opinion Blizz went to shared lockout to make things easier on them, less loot less models so on and so on. I don't think they ever dreamed how hard balance between the 2 would be.

To everyone saying don't force me to raid your style, you do not realize that Blizz has already forced you to make that decision for your yourself. You had to pick one or the other and focus on it.

[mmff4]

Humans are like electricity. Both of them will choose a path with least resistance.

10-mans are easier to organize.
10-mans usually have much better atmosphere compared to 25-mans. People are more relaxed in a smaller group of people => everyone knows each other better. *
10-man enrage timers aren't as tight as they are on 25-man difficulty. You can bring suboptimal raid group (or low DPS) and still succeed. **
25-mans drop slightly more loots for each person, but 25-man bosses still have a chance to drop 2 or 3 (??) times the same item. ***
10-mans do not need spare players. It is much easier to find 10 players with 100% attendance than finding 25 players is. Obviously there are exceptions.
It is much easier to deal with 10 players. Much less drama and problems with adapting to different tactics.

* Personal experience
** Enrage timers are same on both difficulties. Check www.worldoflogs.com for statistics. Most 25-man kills are ~1 minute longer than 10-man kills are.
*** In my opinion 10-mans are in a better spot here. Obviously it is faster to gear up few guys on 25-man difficulty, but it still takes longer to gear up the whole raid.

And as a note; I am former 25-man raider (TBC -> T11) who converted into 10-mans when Firelands was released, and I think 10-mans are in a way better spot right now. I'd like to return to 25-player raiding, but running 25-man guild is too much trouble and not enough rewarding anymore.

[digger66]

running the same raid twice a week? no thanks

If you love raiding and accomplishment, when there are different goals in each, it is not like you think it is. However I agree that it would get seriously, monotonous with LFR still in use.

[Deleted]

Content became worse aswell. Alot of people loved Ulduar and ICC. Alot of people hated Firelands and Dragon soul.

Anyway, this whole thread is a repost anyway so gonna see if a mod will close this. BAIBAI

A lot of people unsubscribed because their GM/officers couldn't keep up recruitment 25mans when 10mans were so much easier and on the same level. Cutting your roster down always meant losing good, social players, who only played in order to play with their friends in a 25man environment.

---------- Post added 2012-04-15 at 01:20 PM ----------

I honestly have no idea why people complain about 25 or 10 man raids... do what you want...if you want 25 man raids..run 25 man raids, if you want 10 man raids...well you get the picture...

This is a dead topic, Blizz will not remove or change 10 or 25 mans. At least not for this xpac. and I don't for see it changing in later xpac's.

-Jeric

That's the problem. It's not that easy. My realm is full of 10 man guilds, with one 25man that's 8/8 heroic farming and raids 7 times a week. I can't afford that much time spent playing WoW, and neither can I afford to transfer off realm. Even if I could, there are significantly low amounts of 25man guilds which makes finding one that isn't bloated already with good players wanting to play 25mans again is difficult.

[digger66]

I fully support the WotLK model with separate 10 and 25 man lockouts (ICC style).

Agreed, but I would also like to see forced hard modes like Ulduar, I'll never forget the first time we forced XT into hard mode by accident. Epic.

[Deleted]

Please chill out, people. You can debate and disagree with each other, but keep it civil.

[digger66]

After reading thru this post again it seems that at least for half the people it revolves around loot. That is sad. The game is an MMO after all. It is suppose to be a time sink of some kind. The game is about accomplishment....not the shit you wear on your back. These attitudes will kill the MMO genre. The M stands for "multi-player", not for "Myself". You accomplish things as a team it's amazing how easy your loot comes.

[nowish]

Ok I haven't read through every single comment since I really can't be fucked, but some of the arguments to nerf the 10 man loot since it's "easier" is just plain stupid. 25 man ATM is more loot rewarding than the current state of 10 mans in for instance, dragonsoul. 25 mans get 6 items / boss (if Im not completely wrong) while 10 mans get 2. 25 man get 3x the 10 man loot while only beeing 2.5x the size of a 10 man raid.... Now when we are talking about loot, don't even get me started with how many times that specific boss has dropped the same item for the past 5 fucking weeks, just to change into something else that will get DE'd.

10 and 25 man got their pros and cons. That we get to choose what we as individuals prefer the most is a good think as I see it. Arguments like "only the real hardcore-raiders raid 25 man, casuals raid 10 man" makes me spit fire, ignorance much?

The raiding system IMO works fine as it is right now, tho the 10 man loot table could be abit less RNG but ye, alot of things in this game is pretty much based on that stupid RNG....

The only thing I would like to be changed regarding raiding, is the progression through tiers. Im not an idiot and I see why alot of ppl would like the current state (which is that we get new 5mans to gear up for the current content and just leave the old raids in the shadows to gather dust), but when I did TBC and knew that when I finally got lvl 70 (did not play hardcore at that time) I had KZ, Gruul, Mag, TK, SSC etc to look forward to. With the TBC model it sure would be hard to get on the same lvl as the top guilds on the server or whatever if it would take time for you to gather the experience / gear needed to even have a shot in joining them, but the way I see it is that with the TBC progression tier model ppl won't get bored that quickly, due to them having alot of conent to progress through. Ye the top guilds will pretty much always be on par but that's really no different than it is today. The only thing this would change would be for the nonhardcore players, and I think that it would be appreciated. The content today feels so rushed, quick nerfs so that ppl get to progress through the CURRENT content quicker, and when they are finnished there are nothing else to do but farm farm farm. The way I see it is that Casual guilds who don't raid alot don't necessarily have to experience the WHOLE content when it's current for the top guilds, if that makes any sence at all. I just mean that maybe the reason why the casual guilds can't clear it so quickly without a hell lot of nerfs might be because they are not ready for that kind of content and would be better of doing weaker raids at first? Since as it is now alot of ppl can just ding lvl 85, pretty much buy pvp blues 377 Ilvl gear from the AH and start doing the 5 mans heroics whichs drops better/equal gear to the previous tier, which can make ppl completely ignoring the past tiers and just make it straight to the current content which they might not be ready for, thus having alot of QQ from that things is too hard due to that and that etc.

I do not imply that they should clear the previous content completely but like maybe 90 % (maybe excluding the last boss) before they start working on the next tier and when they gathered some gear from the higher tier they could come back and give the last boss in the previous tier a new shot maybe? Sure it would be almost the same as if blizzard would just nerf the previous content themselves, but with what I just described the raid tried to gather better items = put down some effort into increasing their chances of slaying the last boss in the previous tier, while it's only a passive thing and everyone gets it right away when blizzard nerfs the whole tier. I would think that ppl play this game to accomplish something or try to accomplish something as a group, and I would at least feel way better to down a boss which my team has been struggling with, due to us putting down some effort farming better gear. Basicly, yourself increasing the chances, the work you put down to make it happen = , blizz increasing the general chance for everyone = (IMO).

Edit: And yeh I don't really like the LFR idea either, that "it's supposed to be an introduction to the normal raid of the current content". We got previous tiers to make people ready for the next tier of content, or at least it used to be and that's what I would love to see them putting back into the game.

Not sure if I could explain it so that I got my thoughts through but I think that skipping the up to current content 5 mans would give ppl who raid in a slower pace more things to do, since that's why the non really really hardcore pushing ranks raiders play this game right? to spend their time somewhere, or am I completely lost regarding this?

I haven't slept tonight so if I wrote something in a really stupid way, just tell me I will try to explain it in a different way (hopefully when Im rested).

/Nowish and out

[Deleted]

Im sorry, you must have completely missed Teir 12, where certain 10M HMs were 2x harder than 25M HMs. For example, Ryolith.

Bull****
I've raided HC t12 when it was current on both modes and 10m was significantly easier.
T11 on the other hand, now THAT was an other story alltogether.

[Deleted]

A lot of people unsubscribed because their GM/officers couldn't keep up recruitment 25mans when 10mans were so much easier and on the same level. Cutting your roster down always meant losing good, social players, who only played in order to play with their friends in a 25man environment.

There is no official numbers on this. As far as I know, players that play for social means mostly play tens. Most people do not maintain social contacts with 25 people in a game.

[Deleted]

25 and 10 are two different games.
I am ok with loot being the same level, but not merged achievements. That's ridiculous

[Peldorain]

Bull****
I've raided HC t12 when it was current on both modes and 10m was significantly easier.
T11 on the other hand, now THAT was an other story alltogether.

Erm, 10M H Ryolith was overtuned at the beginning pre nerf. My Guild had to set it to 25man and ended up merging 2 10mans and pugging 5 people to get it down as a guild.

Maybe it was just that he felt like 4x slower to turn. Now as to why I did not mention T11 Content is because I was working full time and did not get to raid with the guilds main group, instead only with alt groups, which only ran like once a month due to peoples inability to show up to optional raids.

[-KeenaM-]

With more and more people dropping there subscription they wouldn't drop 10 mans simply because there are people who have adapted to 10 mans, its more compact and you get to know the people your raiding with easier and fast, for the loot quality and boss difficulty there are always gonna be certain fights where 10 mans will be easier and 25 mans will be easier it doesn't matter it's a video game. If YOU want to raid 25 mans go ahead, but don't try to force the people who want to raid 10 mans go to 25 mans.

[Theratzil]

Im sorry, you must have completely missed Teir 12, where certain 10M HMs were 2x harder than 25M HMs. For example, Ryolith.

Because Ryolith was hard?pPPPpp

[Deleted]

Ok I haven't read through every single comment since I really can't be fucked, but some of the arguments to nerf the 10 man loot since it's "easier" is just plain stupid. 25 man ATM is more loot rewarding than the current state of 10 mans in for instance, dragonsoul. 25 mans get 6 items / boss (if Im not completely wrong) while 10 mans get 2. 25 man get 3x the 10 man loot while only beeing 2.5x the size of a 10 man raid.... Now when we are talking about loot, don't even get me started with how many times that specific boss has dropped the same item for the past 5 fucking weeks, just to change into something else that will get DE'd.

10 and 25 man got their pros and cons. That we get to choose what we as individuals prefer the most is a good think as I see it. Arguments like "only the real hardcore-raiders raid 25 man, casuals raid 10 man" makes me spit fire, ignorance much?

The raiding system IMO works fine as it is right now, tho the 10 man loot table could be abit less RNG but ye, alot of things in this game is pretty much based on that stupid RNG....

The only thing I would like to be changed regarding raiding, is the progression through tiers. Im not an idiot and I see why alot of ppl would like the current state (which is that we get new 5mans to gear up for the current content and just leave the old raids in the shadows to gather dust), but when I did TBC and knew that when I finally got lvl 70 (did not play hardcore at that time) I had KZ, Gruul, Mag, TK, SSC etc to look forward to. With the TBC model it sure would be hard to get on the same lvl as the top guilds on the server or whatever if it would take time for you to gather the experience / gear needed to even have a shot in joining them, but the way I see it is that with the TBC progression tier model ppl won't get bored that quickly, due to them having alot of conent to progress through. Ye the top guilds will pretty much always be on par but that's really no different than it is today. The only thing this would change would be for the nonhardcore players, and I think that it would be appreciated. The content today feels so rushed, quick nerfs so that ppl get to progress through the CURRENT content quicker, and when they are finnished there are nothing else to do but farm farm farm. The way I see it is that Casual guilds who don't raid alot don't necessarily have to experience the WHOLE content when it's current for the top guilds, if that makes any sence at all. I just mean that maybe the reason why the casual guilds can't clear it so quickly without a hell lot of nerfs might be because they are not ready for that kind of content and would be better of doing weaker raids at first? Since as it is now alot of ppl can just ding lvl 85, pretty much buy pvp blues 377 Ilvl gear from the AH and start doing the 5 mans heroics whichs drops better/equal gear to the previous tier, which can make ppl completely ignoring the past tiers and just make it straight to the current content which they might not be ready for, thus having alot of QQ from that things is too hard due to that and that etc.

I do not imply that they should clear the previous content completely but like maybe 90 % (maybe excluding the last boss) before they start working on the next tier and when they gathered some gear from the higher tier they could come back and give the last boss in the previous tier a new shot maybe? Sure it would be almost the same as if blizzard would just nerf the previous content themselves, but with what I just described the raid tried to gather better items = put down some effort into increasing their chances of slaying the last boss in the previous tier, while it's only a passive thing and everyone gets it right away when blizzard nerfs the whole tier. I would think that ppl play this game to accomplish something or try to accomplish something as a group, and I would at least feel way better to down a boss which my team has been struggling with, due to us putting down some effort farming better gear. Basicly, yourself increasing the chances, the work you put down to make it happen = , blizz increasing the general chance for everyone = (IMO).

Edit: And yeh I don't really like the LFR idea either, that "it's supposed to be an introduction to the normal raid of the current content". We got previous tiers to make people ready for the next tier of content, or at least it used to be and that's what I would love to see them putting back into the game.

Not sure if I could explain it so that I got my thoughts through but I think that skipping the up to current content 5 mans would give ppl who raid in a slower pace more things to do, since that's why the non really really hardcore pushing ranks raiders play this game right? to spend their time somewhere, or am I completely lost regarding this?

I haven't slept tonight so if I wrote something in a really stupid way, just tell me I will try to explain it in a different way (hopefully when Im rested).

/Nowish and out

I completely agree with everything you said, progression was fantastic, I remember being in a guild progressing through MC and after a raid I saw another player in full tier 2 (Netherwind), I was in awe and looked forward to the day I could attain such gear, knowing full well it was many months ahead of me.

I understand that for the purpose of gearing re-rolls and replacements for quitters forcing progression raids was a pain in the ass and with the way raiders are now a return to this sort of system would kill off a lot of the casual raiders who lfr and the like was designed for, basically there would be too much crying about not being able to see content.

The big problem is that the game is being aimed a huge audience of varying interests as apposed to the core PvE crowd as it was before. WoW just isn't the same game in that sense.

Personally though, in a hypothetical world where WoW is exactly what I want it to be, attunements would be back and with a vengeance (which somewhat fits in with the idea of progressive raids).

[Karshda]

Most of the discussion about this subject is that people want more to do. LFR really doesn't cover that since its so easy. People bring up just using the loot lockouts like in LFR so people can raid as much as they want. But what most people want isn't just more to do. They want more loot, if the raid after the first time gives no loot, nobody (mostly) would do it. They want incentive to raid more then once a week with the same character. The incentive should be the fun of raiding. Just like the incentive to do world PvP should be the fun, yet most people need to earn something to see it being worth their time.

[Nestoras]

False, same difficulty, same loot needed. Equal amount of loot per person needed. You are not more hardcore or skilled than 10-man raider. You just brought more friends.

I HATE 25 mans... don't force me to run your format and I won't force you to run my format

Nobody is forcing nonone to run a format, blizzard does, and at this point the guy you re quoting is the one being forced to run the format he doesnt prefer.

I prefer 10 over 25, but i run them in a guild that was 25 and its leadership will swap to 25s the minute it worths the extra efford.

That is the paradox latest changes brought to the game, a twisted model, that had obvious results even before it got implemented and divided the community like no other did in the past.

There is no turning back now, but there is no future to it either.

Just scrap it for a single size of 15 people, that is more popular than 10 or 25 atm.